Review from elsewhere:
"I have tried out the new Armie pro mast and MA 1K (I know lucky me) - and thought I'd post a unsponsored regular guy review (prone).
First up - wow. This has taken me from a few connections a session to as many as I want. (Was riding chopped HS1250 before - which I do love).
The hype is real - take offs are silky smooth even in pitchy conditions that I had today. Surfs great - dare I say better than 1250? Breaches are also silky smooth - had half the foil out of the water on a connection turn - I'd like to say I noticed something but naw.
I will say the new pro mast is also phenomenal. The info that comes with it says to move back two cms, which I did. The first part of my session, I will say it didn't feel as lively. I moved it to my normal position and made all the difference. Could even go more forward - we'll see.
If the froth was high before today - it's off the charts now."
-Kiwi JS
considering to get a MA1225 to replace my HS1550v2.
Seeing some differing reviews on how it slots in in relation to the other lines regarding lift for size; particularly at the lower speed levels.
Curious to hear opinions (mostly before I sell my 1550 in case I should hang on to it).
I've got a HA925&1325 and HS1550&1850 for comparison. Recently migrated to the HA's but still struggling to feel comfortable on them. Mostly SUP small surf.
Im guessing it's above a HS1250 but below the HS1550; and likely around the 1125 on the HA line?
thanks and cheers!
Select to expand quotewanabxtrm said..
considering to get a MA1225 to replace my HS1550v2.
Seeing some differing reviews on how it slots in in relation to the other lines regarding lift for size; particularly at the lower speed levels.
Curious to hear opinions (mostly before I sell my 1550 in case I should hang on to it).
I've got a HA925&1325 and HS1550&1850 for comparison. Recently migrated to the HA's but still struggling to feel comfortable on them. Mostly SUP small surf.
Im guessing it's above a HS1250 but below the HS1550; and likely around the 1125 on the HA line?
thanks and cheers!
Friend of mine his staple his staple was the 1550. Had two sessions on the 1225. Selling his 1550 .
better in every other way. Not selling his 1850 session saver though.
I asked him what's better. He said "everything".
Select to expand quotemudlake said..
Nice outlines!
But even more important is the profil! Can anyone post it?
Like laterally ? The Concave that runs along the bottom ? It's kind of hard to take photos of this - there is a lot going on - subtle sh1t.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..mudlake said..
Nice outlines!
But even more important is the profil! Can anyone post it?
Like laterally ? The Concave that runs along the bottom ? It's kind of hard to take photos of this - there is a lot going on - subtle sh1t.
I have found that placing a ruler against the bottom part exposes the camber really well. It would be interesting to know how thin they are too
www.seabreeze.com.au/Photos/View/19438741/Wind%20Wings/sab-13501110940-bottom-curve/
Had MA1225 out yesterday in gusty 12-18 knots, water temp 2.5 C, air temp 2 C. Our season in Toronto almost closed??
88Fg, 935 mast at 4, 60 fuse, red shim. Smooth silky feel. Clocks upwind great and turns on a dime. Surfing really enabled. Waves were messy and small and yet this foil is nimble. Can't wait to get in bigger swell. Lower stall speed. Pump and speed not as good as HA. From experience I know need 3 sessions to start to figure out new kit so more work especially on pump.
Select to expand quotemindhoc said..eppo said..mudlake said..
Nice outlines!
But even more important is the profil! Can anyone post it?
Like laterally ? The Concave that runs along the bottom ? It's kind of hard to take photos of this - there is a lot going on - subtle sh1t.
I have found that placing a ruler against the bottom part exposes the camber really well. It would be interesting to know how thin they are too
www.seabreeze.com.au/Photos/View/19438741/Wind%20Wings/sab-13501110940-bottom-curve/
Many thx for posting the photo! As far as I can see lots of camber!
I am interested in wing-profiles, because my last hydrofoil I built by myself. I have some technical background and experience in aerodynamic.
At the moment I am thinking about my next frontwing. Thats why I am happy for any input.
For getting wing-profiles I normally use a contour gauge. Then I try to find the wing-profile in a free database (eg "airfoiltools") to get the exakt profile incl. all datas...
Select to expand quote
Many thx for posting the photo! As far as I can see lots of camber!
That's a Sabfoil camber to be clear. But the Armie MA does have a lot!
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Looks very similar to a Kujira 1210 as far as I can see:-)
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Thanks Eppo, these look really good , awesome photo showing the gull there, it really looks like a shape that will be really playful and reactive. Have you measured the max foil thickness by any chance ? cheers
The Lift 90 HA has a decent camber in the profile too, creates lift and reduces stall speed but also creates drag.
Good for slowing the small HA foils down to match the speeds that suit prone surfing and pumping.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Nice reflex curve.
That would explain the comments of the MA foils feeling very stable at the various ranges of speed. Can't wait to get mine
Select to expand quotekobo said..
The Lift 90 HA has a decent camber in the profile too, creates lift and reduces stall speed but also creates drag.
Good for slowing the small HA foils down to match the speeds that suit prone surfing and pumping.
Yeh when talking to armie in person he was very positive about the lift foils out of all the ones they've tried. Definitely took a leaf out of lifts tool box here.
Tow foiled behind the ski today again in some waves but whacked it on my sons 72 mast and 50 fuse. Was really Fun on the 50 to be honest. Missed the 795 though even the 72 felt a tad draggy. My son was completely breaching the tips across the top of the wave (cause the little prick can) and was riding away with ease.
as I said before though he still misses the speed and excitement of his 795. But he doesn't miss the crazy stuff that comes with it at times.
then again he's totally over foiled - he really needs to give the 800 a go first. He dropped the rope on the way back and punped behind the ski wake for a good km or two. He definitely enjoyed that part of the wing.
His mate whose just really getting into (and my son kept putting him on the 795 lol) got straight up and even pulled him into some waves.
it's such an even, controlled and easy to use wing.
Select to expand quotemindhoc said..eppo said..
Thanks Eppo, these look really good , awesome photo showing the gull there, it really looks like a shape that will be really playful and reactive. Have you measured the max foil thickness by any chance ? cheers
Ah mate I was drinking my coffee this morning before towing behind the ski and it was just sitting there so took some pics. Don't really have the tools to accurately measure thickness. It's like the brontosaurus - thin at one end, thick in the middle and even thinner at the end. (Monty python)
Anyone willing to explain the larger chord, thinner more refined foil section and extra camber on this foil? In terms of what each element is designed to achieve?
Select to expand quotecornwallis said..
Anyone willing to explain the larger chord, thinner more refined foil section and extra camber on this foil? In terms of what each element is designed to achieve?
The main reason to go mid-aspect on a surf wing is to reduce the wing span which reduces the roll resistance. I believe a responsive roll rate is the main component that makes a foil feel carve-y.
If you reduce the span you will need to increase the chord to increase the surface area and hence the lifting surface of the wing. Larger chords have more surface drag per lift than higher aspect ratio wings which makes them less efficient but they do increase the pitch stability of a wing.
Camber improves the low end lift of a wing (like airplane flaps going down during landing and take off) at the detriment of drag which will reduce the top end speed. Lots of high camber sections can get quite draggy At high speed and can be hard to control the lift spikes with changes of angle of attack. What makes armstrong's camber unique is that it remains very controllable at high speed.
A refined foil section, or thinner foil section reduce the frontal area and overall drag of wing which makes it faster usually you lose some low end with a thinner foil and your useable angle of attack range reduces as you can stall at lower angles of attack. This MA is thin overall but also has a particularly thin leading edge which helps shed bubbles quickly and re-attach water flow to the foil greatly increasing your chance of recovering from a breach. A thin leading edge is also more prone to stalling at lower angles of attack.
As you can see all these design changes are there to balance out the shortcomings of each other but also makes you realize how difficult it must be to find the right balance to make everything work in harmony.
Select to expand quoteaahi said..cornwallis said..
Anyone willing to explain the larger chord, thinner more refined foil section and extra camber on this foil? In terms of what each element is designed to achieve?
The main reason to go mid-aspect on a surf wing is to reduce the wing span which reduces the roll resistance. I believe a responsive roll rate is the main component that makes a foil feel carve-y.
If you reduce the span you will need to increase the chord to increase the surface area and hence the lifting surface of the wing. Larger chords have more surface drag per lift than higher aspect ratio wings which makes them less efficient but they do increase the pitch stability of a wing.
Camber improves the low end lift of a wing (like airplane flaps going down during landing and take off) at the detriment of drag which will reduce the top end speed. Lots of high camber sections can get quite draggy At high speed and can be hard to control the lift spikes with changes of angle of attack. What makes armstrong's camber unique is that it remains very controllable at high speed.
A refined foil section, or thinner foil section reduce the frontal area and overall drag of wing which makes it faster usually you lose some low end with a thinner foil and your useable angle of attack range reduces as you can stall at lower angles of attack. This MA is thin overall but also has a particularly thin leading edge which helps shed bubbles quickly and re-attach water flow to the foil greatly increasing your chance of recovering from a breach. A thin leading edge is also more prone to stalling at lower angles of attack.
As you can see all these design changes are there to balance out the shortcomings of each other but also makes you realize how difficult it must be to find the right balance to make everything work in harmony.
Fantastic input. Thank you!
The photo above that shows how the camber is progressive towards the center of each wing is fascinating. I imagine that helps with the controlled carving nature of this wing (at least how it is being described). Designing that must have been fun!
Here's an instagram clip of one of my favorite foilers to watch, Dylan Fish, winging the 800:
www.instagram.com/reel/CmW9_2JA2l6/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
Select to expand quoteaahi said..cornwallis said..
Anyone willing to explain the larger chord, thinner more refined foil section and extra camber on this foil? In terms of what each element is designed to achieve?
The main reason to go mid-aspect on a surf wing is to reduce the wing span which reduces the roll resistance. I believe a responsive roll rate is the main component that makes a foil feel carve-y.
If you reduce the span you will need to increase the chord to increase the surface area and hence the lifting surface of the wing. Larger chords have more surface drag per lift than higher aspect ratio wings which makes them less efficient but they do increase the pitch stability of a wing.
Camber improves the low end lift of a wing (like airplane flaps going down during landing and take off) at the detriment of drag which will reduce the top end speed. Lots of high camber sections can get quite draggy At high speed and can be hard to control the lift spikes with changes of angle of attack. What makes armstrong's camber unique is that it remains very controllable at high speed.
A refined foil section, or thinner foil section reduce the frontal area and overall drag of wing which makes it faster usually you lose some low end with a thinner foil and your useable angle of attack range reduces as you can stall at lower angles of attack. This MA is thin overall but also has a particularly thin leading edge which helps shed bubbles quickly and re-attach water flow to the foil greatly increasing your chance of recovering from a breach. A thin leading edge is also more prone to stalling at lower angles of attack.
As you can see all these design changes are there to balance out the shortcomings of each other but also makes you realize how difficult it must be to find the right balance to make everything work in harmony.
To add to your comments, the slight 'negative' camber on the aft quarter of the chord (the reflex curve) reduces the chord wise movement of the centre of lift through the operating range of angle of attack, which in turn reduces changes to the pitching moment of the foil. The reflex curve will however, increase drag.
The somewhat elliptical planform reduces the span wise flow which in turn reduces the induced drag (along with the very slightly raked wingtip).
As mentioned before - its a fine balance.
Select to expand quoteaahi said..cornwallis said..
Anyone willing to explain the larger chord, thinner more refined foil section and extra camber on this foil? In terms of what each element is designed to achieve?
The main reason to go mid-aspect on a surf wing is to reduce the wing span which reduces the roll resistance. I believe a responsive roll rate is the main component that makes a foil feel carve-y.
If you reduce the span you will need to increase the chord to increase the surface area and hence the lifting surface of the wing. Larger chords have more surface drag per lift than higher aspect ratio wings which makes them less efficient but they do increase the pitch stability of a wing.
Camber improves the low end lift of a wing (like airplane flaps going down during landing and take off) at the detriment of drag which will reduce the top end speed. Lots of high camber sections can get quite draggy At high speed and can be hard to control the lift spikes with changes of angle of attack. What makes armstrong's camber unique is that it remains very controllable at high speed.
A refined foil section, or thinner foil section reduce the frontal area and overall drag of wing which makes it faster usually you lose some low end with a thinner foil and your useable angle of attack range reduces as you can stall at lower angles of attack. This MA is thin overall but also has a particularly thin leading edge which helps shed bubbles quickly and re-attach water flow to the foil greatly increasing your chance of recovering from a breach. A thin leading edge is also more prone to stalling at lower angles of attack.
As you can see all these design changes are there to balance out the shortcomings of each other but also makes you realize how difficult it must be to find the right balance to make everything work in harmony.
Used to think that but the GoFoil 850 which is HA turns which does my head in after using the Armie HA foils which did not turn. Young sport lots to happen in the next few years.
mmmm first day today 800mm 4ft waves
Found it really frustrating !! Hard to get it up on the plain ... once it did was ok..but took a lot of tiring work, and many goes ..
Came back in moved back , and then back then forward .couldn't pump .. until moved forward .
it will take a few goes to dial into , turned well . but i didn't like the drop in between lumps compared to the 1050 with new mast and feels amazing , re adjusting to MA, a little tippy and dropped splat flat on trough waves .. got me into a bit of strife in waves today !
a few more days and i will report again . Maybe more technique is needed.
Select to expand quoteaahi said..
A thin leading edge is also more prone to stalling at lower angles of attack.
Excellent, thank you! Interesting points.
One question, was this meaning to say "A thin leading edge will stall at relatively lower angles of attack, compared to a thick leading edge"
My understanding is that thin LE leads to earlier separation.
Select to expand quoteWingnutz said..aahi said..cornwallis said..
Anyone willing to explain the larger chord, thinner more refined foil section and extra camber on this foil? In terms of what each element is designed to achieve?
The main reason to go mid-aspect on a surf wing is to reduce the wing span which reduces the roll resistance. I believe a responsive roll rate is the main component that makes a foil feel carve-y.
If you reduce the span you will need to increase the chord to increase the surface area and hence the lifting surface of the wing. Larger chords have more surface drag per lift than higher aspect ratio wings which makes them less efficient but they do increase the pitch stability of a wing.
Camber improves the low end lift of a wing (like airplane flaps going down during landing and take off) at the detriment of drag which will reduce the top end speed. Lots of high camber sections can get quite draggy At high speed and can be hard to control the lift spikes with changes of angle of attack. What makes armstrong's camber unique is that it remains very controllable at high speed.
A refined foil section, or thinner foil section reduce the frontal area and overall drag of wing which makes it faster usually you lose some low end with a thinner foil and your useable angle of attack range reduces as you can stall at lower angles of attack. This MA is thin overall but also has a particularly thin leading edge which helps shed bubbles quickly and re-attach water flow to the foil greatly increasing your chance of recovering from a breach. A thin leading edge is also more prone to stalling at lower angles of attack.
As you can see all these design changes are there to balance out the shortcomings of each other but also makes you realize how difficult it must be to find the right balance to make everything work in harmony.
To add to your comments, the slight 'negative' camber on the aft quarter of the chord (the reflex curve) reduces the chord wise movement of the centre of lift through the operating range of angle of attack, which in turn reduces changes to the pitching moment of the foil. The reflex curve will however, increase drag.
The somewhat elliptical planform reduces the span wise flow which in turn reduces the induced drag (along with the very slightly raked wingtip).
As mentioned before - its a fine balance.
Interesting, reflex especially. Very little about reflex outside of paramoters and flying wings from google :)
Are any of these features more exaggerated in this MA wing than the HA wing? I would have guessed no, but perhaps not.
