I had the same thoughts so before shelling out another $350AU I tried my 212 which was cut from an original 232. I always liked that tail especially wave riding with a 1050. However after riding the 195 exclusively since it was released the 212 felt so draggy I couldn't put up with it even though it was turning well.
The 205 might look similar in plane shape to 212 but is so much thinner and it also fits the most streamlined onto the fuse of any tail yet.
The result is there is no perceived drag difference between the 205 and 195 so I've not seen any downsides
Select to expand quoteKB7 said..
I had the same thoughts so before shelling out another $350AU I tried my 212 which was cut from an original 232. I always liked that tail especially wave riding with a 1050. However after riding the 195 exclusively since it was released the 212 felt so draggy I couldn't put up with it even though it was turning well.
The 205 might look similar in plane shape to 212 but is so much thinner and it also fits the most streamlined onto the fuse of any tail yet.
The result is there is no perceived drag difference between the 205 and 195 so I've not seen any downsides
Be interesting to see the diff between 205 and 195 when prone pumping and long flagged DW runs pumping and connecting swell lines.
A wings power can disguise and compensate drag differentials.
Just received my 205. Here's the camber profile. The 195 has a tiny bit of camber, but nothing compared to this.
The thickness of the 195 and 205 are virtually the same. Maybe a 0.5mm thicker point on the 205, but that's only next to the fuse.
I've been mainly using the fv200 prone and winging the MAs to pretty good result. Will post comparisons and thoughts hopefully tomorrow or Thursday. Big front with S then W at my local, on my lunch break, with the high tide.fingers crossed!
Just received my 205. Here's the camber profile. The 195 has a tiny bit of camber, but nothing compared to this.
The thickness of the 195 and 205 are virtually the same. Maybe a 0.5mm thicker point on the 205, but that's only next to the fuse.
I've been mainly using the fv200 prone and winging the MAs to pretty good result. Will post comparisons and thoughts hopefully tomorrow or Thursday. Big front with S then W at my local, on my lunch break, with the high tide.fingers crossed!
Select to expand quoteMidAtlanticFoil said..
Just received my 205. Here's the camber profile. The 195 has a tiny bit of camber, but nothing compared to this.
The thickness of the 195 and 205 are virtually the same. Maybe a 0.5mm thicker point on the 205, but that's only next to the fuse.
I've been mainly using the fv200 prone and winging the MAs to pretty good result. Will post comparisons and thoughts hopefully tomorrow or Thursday. Big front with S then W at my local, on my lunch break, with the high tide.fingers crossed!
Can't wait. The camber should reduce the likelihood of having to sand the trailing edge.
I would appreciate help with points 1 and 2 below.
Compared to 1550 V2 after 4 sessions on MA1000 in choppy conditions (88l Arm, 85cmA+, HA195, 86kg, position 10.):
THE BAD
1. More yawing in chop, which I don't understand
2 HA195 breaching, but maybe noticing as 1550V2 would have gone first
THE GOOD
3. Early get up, not far off 1550V2
4. Pitch sensitive and folks here said if not used HAs then take a bit of getting used to and I'll get there.
5. Need more speed in gybes or stall and need to apply front foot pressure on exit, getting there
6. Rides very high without breaching
Select to expand quotepatronus said..
I would appreciate help with points 1 and 2 below.
Compared to 1550 V2 after 4 sessions on MA1000 in choppy conditions (88l Arm, 85cmA+, HA195, 86kg, position 10.):
THE BAD
1. More yawing in chop, which I don't understand
2 HA195 breaching, but maybe noticing as 1550V2 would have gone first
THE GOOD
3. Early get up, not far off 1550V2
4. Pitch sensitive and folks here said if not used HAs then take a bit of getting used to and I'll get there.
5. Need more speed in gybes or stall and need to apply front foot pressure on exit, getting there
6. Rides very high without breaching
Weird as id say the 1000 isnt really applicable to the 1550 (more like the 1250) so having a hard time trying to give any reasonable advice on points 1 and 2.
First 205 stab session notes. MA1000/50F/795M/205+.5 (red&blue) at 7 on 60L FG.
Conditions: 12-18 mph river with knee high chop, not very organized, with backwash in some zones. 65kgs
Started out by replacing the fv200, leaving it in the same spot and replaced the red shim with a blue shim. Immediately knew I needed more shim. The ride was very front footed and a bit porpoisey on the pumps (maybe better with the 60 fuse for pumping with this shimming?). It basically rode just under the surface and wouldn't breach. Pretty wild. Went in and added a red shim and it felt a lot better. Less jumpy on the pumps and less drag. Could probably even go two red shims.
The conditions weren't very good, so I was only able to ride some DW bumps and crank some powered turns and transitions. It is my favorite tail with the ma1000 so far by a wide margin. Tacks and gybes felt very comfortable. Very low stall speed and able to dig out of holes very well. Pushed a couple speed runs and hit 21, but there was significant increase in lift, to the point where I was 100% on my front foot, full mast extended and somehow not breaching for like 100 yards navigating through swell troughs. Second run I did similar but ended up breaching on the exit when I thought I was in the clear and had an epic back sliding - skipping wipeout. So maybe this combo won't be good for towing bigger waves?
great pop on airs.
Excited to get it back out on the water!
edit: so maybe this stab takes away that pitchy nature people have been mentioning
Select to expand quoteMidAtlanticFoil said..
First 205 stab session notes. MA1000/50F/795M/205+.5 (red&blue) at 7 on 60L FG.
Conditions: 12-18 mph river with knee high chop, not very organized, with backwash in some zones. 65kgs
Started out by replacing the fv200, leaving it in the same spot and replaced the red shim with a blue shim. Immediately knew I needed more shim. The ride was very front footed and a bit porpoisey on the pumps (maybe better with the 60 fuse for pumping with this shimming?). It basically rode just under the surface and wouldn't breach. Pretty wild. Went in and added a red shim and it felt a lot better. Less jumpy on the pumps and less drag. Could probably even go two red shims.
The conditions weren't very good, so I was only able to ride some DW bumps and crank some powered turns and transitions. It is my favorite tail with the ma1000 so far by a wide margin. Tacks and gybes felt very comfortable. Very low stall speed and able to dig out of holes very well. Pushed a couple speed runs and hit 21, but there was significant increase in lift, to the point where I was 100% on my front foot, full mast extended and somehow not breaching for like 100 yards navigating through swell troughs. Second run I did similar but ended up breaching on the exit when I thought I was in the clear and had an epic back sliding - skipping wipeout. So maybe this combo won't be good for towing bigger waves?
great pop on airs.
Excited to get it back out on the water!
edit: so maybe this stab takes away that pitchy nature people have been mentioning
So no obvious slow drag like on the old chopped 232?
that increasing front foot pressure with speed worries me . i like the nuetral feel of the HA 195 - some say pitchy but nah just nuetral.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..MidAtlanticFoil said..
First 205 stab session notes. MA1000/50F/795M/205+.5 (red&blue) at 7 on 60L FG.
Conditions: 12-18 mph river with knee high chop, not very organized, with backwash in some zones. 65kgs
Started out by replacing the fv200, leaving it in the same spot and replaced the red shim with a blue shim. Immediately knew I needed more shim. The ride was very front footed and a bit porpoisey on the pumps (maybe better with the 60 fuse for pumping with this shimming?). It basically rode just under the surface and wouldn't breach. Pretty wild. Went in and added a red shim and it felt a lot better. Less jumpy on the pumps and less drag. Could probably even go two red shims.
The conditions weren't very good, so I was only able to ride some DW bumps and crank some powered turns and transitions. It is my favorite tail with the ma1000 so far by a wide margin. Tacks and gybes felt very comfortable. Very low stall speed and able to dig out of holes very well. Pushed a couple speed runs and hit 21, but there was significant increase in lift, to the point where I was 100% on my front foot, full mast extended and somehow not breaching for like 100 yards navigating through swell troughs. Second run I did similar but ended up breaching on the exit when I thought I was in the clear and had an epic back sliding - skipping wipeout. So maybe this combo won't be good for towing bigger waves?
great pop on airs.
Excited to get it back out on the water!
edit: so maybe this stab takes away that pitchy nature people have been mentioning
So no obvious slow drag like on the old chopped 232?
There were a few moments where I jumped to clear weed, but I don't think there was any. But other times I didn't really feel drag, so not entirely sure. Definitely way less drag than the 212 though.
Select to expand quoteMidAtlanticFoil said..
First 205 stab session notes. MA1000/50F/795M/205+.5 (red&blue) at 7 on 60L FG
Would you please tell us your front and back footstrap positions i.e. which holes the front screws are in?
Select to expand quotebhc said..MidAtlanticFoil said..
First 205 stab session notes. MA1000/50F/795M/205+.5 (red&blue) at 7 on 60L FG
Would you please tell us your front and back footstrap positions i.e. which holes the front screws are in?
I have the front strap as close to center line as possible. Same goes for the rear (positive angle on both). I only use rear strap when jumping. Otherwise my back foot is moving around a lot, hanging around the front third of the strap.
To Eppo's concern about front foot pressure, it could be simply that I need to move my mast back a cm based on my strap position. I really felt like I was close to being able to control it at the 20+mph range. I have some proto wingscrews coming in soon to test in the new mast, so that will be nice.
I've never really experienced that increase in front foot pressure with speed increase, or at least I've forgotten after so many hours on the HAs. Next session I'll try moving back a CM.or add a shim.or add the 60 fuse. It's hard to stick to one change at a time. Either way, it was fun!
I'm running the 60 fuse so is a friend who has the 795mast MA1000 and a new 235tail neither of us have shims and the foil is balanced through out the speed range. If you have the new mast I don't see any reason to mess with shims at the start even if you have allot of experience, the MA1000 is already fast.
I'm finding the overall speed faster than my 925 which I used to ride 70% of the time. Spend some time to find the right track position and start having fun.
In the last couple of days I've gone from underpowered 6m to fully powered 4m conditions with waves and balance is fine. I've done the best turns since I've been winging so stoked with the setup, the 205 just works. I now need to get a 5OL board to take turns to the next level.
Select to expand quoteKB7 said..
I'm running the 60 fuse so is a friend who has the 795mast MA1000 and a new 235tail neither of us have shims and the foil is balanced through out the speed range. If you have the new mast I don't see any reason to mess with shims at the start even if you have allot of experience, the MA1000 is already fast.
I'm finding the overall speed faster than my 925 which I used to ride 70% of the time. Spend some time to find the right track position and start having fun.
In the last couple of days I've gone from underpowered 6m to fully powered 4m conditions with waves and balance is fine. I've done the best turns since I've been winging so stoked with the setup, the 205 just works. I now need to get a 5OL board to take turns to the next level.
Typos? - was is 235 or 205 you were using?
Select to expand quoteKB7 said..
I'm running the 60 fuse so is a friend who has the 795mast MA1000 and a new 235tail neither of us have shims and the foil is balanced through out the speed range. If you have the new mast I don't see any reason to mess with shims at the start even if you have allot of experience, the MA1000 is already fast.
I'm finding the overall speed faster than my 925 which I used to ride 70% of the time. Spend some time to find the right track position and start having fun.
In the last couple of days I've gone from underpowered 6m to fully powered 4m conditions with waves and balance is fine. I've done the best turns since I've been winging so stoked with the setup, the 205 just works. I now need to get a 5OL board to take turns to the next level.
The MA 1000 digs a blue shim . just saying
Select to expand quoteKB7 said..
I'm running the 60 fuse so is a friend who has the 795mast MA1000 and a new 235tail neither of us have shims and the foil is balanced through out the speed range. If you have the new mast I don't see any reason to mess with shims at the start even if you have allot of experience, the MA1000 is already fast.
I'm finding the overall speed faster than my 925 which I used to ride 70% of the time. Spend some time to find the right track position and start having fun.
In the last couple of days I've gone from underpowered 6m to fully powered 4m conditions with waves and balance is fine. I've done the best turns since I've been winging so stoked with the setup, the 205 just works. I now need to get a 5OL board to take turns to the next level.
Yeah I think I will try the 60 fuse next, because the wing and new 205 tail wing turn soooo good already. The 50 fuse makes the turns so quick that you get less time to really enjoy the transition turns. Also I think the cadence/sine wave of the pump will be improved with a longer fuse.
Select to expand quotepaulweller2 said..
Agreed with Eppo. 800/195 works best for me with one blue.
And pushed as far forward as you like . .. Or can.
Got in a session with the 205 today.
Set up:
Performance 935, MA800, MA205, 69L board. Head high to slight overhead open ocean swell that was occasionally breaking with 12-18 knots of wind.
While the MA front foils I've tried are a lot of fun, but haven't led to me selling my HA foils, the 205 might keep the HA195 in my bag. Right out of the gate it was a clear improvement over the HA195 when paired with the MA800. Specifically, it increased pitch stability, helped increase lift during take off, reduced stall speed, and noticeably improved the glide of the 800. The HA725 will still outperform the MA800 in glide and acceleration, but this tail sure helps get the 800 to a point in glide where I could consider not owning the 725.
For those upping their game in surf, I found the combo to perform really well when going through white wash after a wave passed and it makes the turning experience rail to rail really quick.
I'm now very curious to see if the MA205 will add pitch stability to the HA525 and how it impacts the HA725 turning. Might be enough wind to give it a go tomorrow. I'll report back.
Oahu: I was scouring the internet for this sort of early feedback--thank you. The 800 is my only MA so was trying to decide whether I'd need something other than the 195. I've been using the 800 winging with the 60 fuse and 195 with one blue shim (mast track 7 with the 795 on my 39L FG). I was using it with the 50 fuse but the turns were a bit too tight for my liking--I think MAF made a similar comment. The 195 is a fantastic little thing but I've definitely noticed that it tends to track when doing cutbacks, jibes onto waves, or tacks off back to the lineup. At my weight of 82kgs, the 800 is a lot harder to get up than the 725. I tried going no-shim with the 195 but I've never liked how it rides at -1 deg. I can keep pushing the mast further forward but I like to keep my back foot (in-strap) just above the mast. The winter swell on Maui has been so good for the 800. Rain and no wind for the next week or so. Not good.
Select to expand quoteOahuwaterwalker said..
Got in a session with the 205 today.
Set up:
Performance 935, MA800, MA205, 69L board. Head high to slight overhead open ocean swell that was occasionally breaking with 12-18 knots of wind.
While the MA front foils I've tried are a lot of fun, but haven't led to me selling my HA foils, the 205 might keep the HA195 in my bag. Right out of the gate it was a clear improvement over the HA195 when paired with the MA800. Specifically, it increased pitch stability, helped increase lift during take off, reduced stall speed, and noticeably improved the glide of the 800. The HA725 will still outperform the MA800 in glide and acceleration, but this tail sure helps get the 800 to a point in glide where I could consider not owning the 725.
For those upping their game in surf, I found the combo to perform really well when going through white wash after a wave passed and it makes the turning experience rail to rail really quick.
I'm now very curious to see if the MA205 will add pitch stability to the HA525 and how it impacts the HA725 turning. Might be enough wind to give it a go tomorrow. I'll report back.
well that is the good news i wanted to hear. Thanks man.
Select to expand quotepaulweller2 said..
Oahu: I was scouring the internet for this sort of early feedback--thank you. The 800 is my only MA so was trying to decide whether I'd need something other than the 195. I've been using the 800 winging with the 60 fuse and 195 with one blue shim (mast track 7 with the 795 on my 39L FG). I was using it with the 50 fuse but the turns were a bit too tight for my liking--I think MAF made a similar comment. The 195 is a fantastic little thing but I've definitely noticed that it tends to track when doing cutbacks, jibes onto waves, or tacks off back to the lineup. At my weight of 82kgs, the 800 is a lot harder to get up than the 725. I tried going no-shim with the 195 but I've never liked how it rides at -1 deg. I can keep pushing the mast further forward but I like to keep my back foot (in-strap) just above the mast. The winter swell on Maui has been so good for the 800. Rain and no wind for the next week or so. Not good.
At 75kgs, I've been having the same experience. I could almost get going on the 525 in the same wind needed for the 800 with the 195 tail. Today it was much easier. It still doesn't do that super fast low end release like the 725 (hopefully you understand what I mean by this), but it did seem to bring the release speed lower to a point where it wasn't too far off from the 725.
We're getting some decent N winds over here which is getting me out on the water, but not ideal for Kailua wave/wind line up. It's setting up more like riding S shore which takes some adjustment.
If it's windy enough tomorrow, I'll try the 525 with the 205 and share my thoughts.
I've been riding the MA1225 with the 195 and chopped 212 tails. I keep getting surprised by the top end speeds I'm hitting (Apple watch measurement). I realize the Apple watch may not be the most accurate but consistently I'm getting better speeds on the 1225 than the 1125 and often the 925. The 925 feels so much faster but the watch shows the 1225 taking the edge maybe due to better pitch stability? Strange, but to have the speed and turning ability is pretty amazing. Looking forward to seeing how the new tails make it perform.
Oahu: Yeah there's just so little drag with the 725. I assumed that there would be more low-end lift with the 800. I think that this can be attributed to its thickness (thinness) in relation to span and chord-something taken from the CFv2 foils.
Windoc: I've found that the 925 is faster than the 800 so the 925 should be quite a bit faster than the 1225. Pitch control (changes in AOA) will affect your top-end. Foil chord and AR, tail size and angle, and fuse length are variables which affect pitch control-and achievable top-end speed. I'm a lot faster with my 60 fuse than with my 50. I'm sure a lot of riders can go crazy fast with the 50 but I'm nowhere near that level 
Select to expand quotepaulweller2 said..
Windoc: I've found that the 925 is faster than the 800 so the 925 should be quite a bit faster than the 1225. Pitch control (changes in AOA) will affect your top-end. Foil chord and AR, tail size and angle, and fuse length are variables which affect pitch control-and achievable top-end speed. I'm a lot faster with my 60 fuse than with my 50. I'm sure a lot of riders can go crazy fast with the 50 but I'm nowhere near that level
Faster as measured by what? You confusing acceleration with top speed re 925 or is this a GPS meaured speed.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..paulweller2 said..
Windoc: I've found that the 925 is faster than the 800 so the 925 should be quite a bit faster than the 1225. Pitch control (changes in AOA) will affect your top-end. Foil chord and AR, tail size and angle, and fuse length are variables which affect pitch control-and achievable top-end speed. I'm a lot faster with my 60 fuse than with my 50. I'm sure a lot of riders can go crazy fast with the 50 but I'm nowhere near that level
Faster as measured by what? You confusing acceleration with top speed re 925 or is this a GPS meaured speed.
Nothing precise. GPS. Waterspeed on Apple Watch Ultra. The 925 compared to the 800 is quicker (acceleration) and faster (top-end speed), in my experience. The 725 quicker and faster than the 925.
Select to expand quotepaulweller2 said..eppo said..paulweller2 said..
Windoc: I've found that the 925 is faster than the 800 so the 925 should be quite a bit faster than the 1225. Pitch control (changes in AOA) will affect your top-end. Foil chord and AR, tail size and angle, and fuse length are variables which affect pitch control-and achievable top-end speed. I'm a lot faster with my 60 fuse than with my 50. I'm sure a lot of riders can go crazy fast with the 50 but I'm nowhere near that level
Faster as measured by what? You confusing acceleration with top speed re 925 or is this a GPS meaured speed.
Nothing precise. GPS. Waterspeed on Apple Watch Ultra. The 925 compared to the 800 is quicker (acceleration) and faster (top-end speed), in my experience. The 725 quicker and faster than the 925.
Ah fair enough.
Sorry folks, ended up catching a bug and couldn't go for test run day two with the MA205.
Like MAF wrote and demonstrated with photos, the 205 is NOT a chopped down 232. The outline is similar, but the 205 is more in line with the 195 in terms of thickness and has some crazy camber going on. I'm not sure why they would describe it as a chopped 232, that description almost kept me from ordering one.
