Select to expand quoteHydrosurf said..
I think it means you don't have to pump to get on a plane.
yeah, agree. and maybe that's the essential issue here.
Select to expand quoteMr Hooper said..
What is passive planing ?
Is this another term magazines have made up.
I looked it up
Passive ....accepting or allowing what happens or what others do, without active response or resistance.
Planing .....(of a bird or an airborne object) soar without moving the wings; glide.
Select to expand quoteMr Hooper said..
What is passive planing ?
Is this another term magazines have made up ?
I've agreed with all your comments so far but I'll talk about this one.
Passive planing is where a lazy or newby sailor waits for things to happen, and they wait for the board to do the work but the wind strength means he/she planes anyway.
The opposite is 'active planing' where the driver is more energetic and works the board more, quickly getting up to speed. That works, because we sail in apparent wind, with a component of wind we create with our board speed, so the active sailor planes earlier and goes faster with a higher 'created wind' component in the apparent wind.
The active sailor then has a different drive through the bottom turn and maintains better speed on the wave face. This is so true in onshore conditions where the active sailor remains sheeted in longer in the bottom turn before needing to go clew first. The speed and slope of the wave will also have a say in this.
I will add here, as a former test editor for Windsurf magazine (a long time ago) and as a wave sailor, I still don't know what a backfoot or frontfoot board actually is. In the bottom turn you drive the rail by leaning forwards, with weight very much on the front foot, and at the top turn you then reverse the direction with backfoot weight on the tail and windward rail. But that's true of all waveboards.
Maybe we can talk about backfoot boards if we have over finned them? (So you are needing to control excessive fin lift?) Or is it when we push against the fins more than we load the board rail?
But it's not at all helpful to describe a board as a backfoot or frontfoot one.
So it's just a complicated way of explaining a faster rockered board with more volume ?
Basher, things like "likes a more front footed style" and "a little more back foot oriented than the other boards on test" was mentioned in all your waveboard tests I ever read. So now its not a thing?
Select to expand quoteBasher said..Mr Hooper said..
What is passive planing ?
Is this another term magazines have made up ?
I've agreed with all your comments so far but I'll talk about this one.
Passive planing is where a lazy or newby sailor waits for things to happen, and they wait for the board to do the work but the wind strength means he/she planes anyway.
The opposite is 'active planing' where the driver is more energetic and works the board more, quickly getting up to speed. That works, because we sail in apparent wind, with a component of wind we create with our board speed, so the active sailor planes earlier and goes faster with a higher 'created wind' component in the apparent wind.
The active sailor then has a different drive through the bottom turn and maintains better speed on the wave face. This is so true in onshore conditions where the active sailor remains sheeted in longer in the bottom turn before needing to go clew first. The speed and slope of the wave will also have a say in this.
I will add here, as a former test editor for Windsurf magazine (a long time ago) and as a wave sailor, I still don't know what a backfoot or frontfoot board actually is. In the bottom turn you drive the rail by leaning forwards, with weight very much on the front foot, and at the top turn you then reverse the direction with backfoot weight on the tail and windward rail. But that's true of all waveboards.
Maybe we can talk about backfoot boards if we have over finned them? (So you are needing to control excessive fin lift?) Or is it when we push against the fins more than we load the board rail?
But it's not at all helpful to describe a board as a backfoot or frontfoot one.
I agree with this.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Basher, things like "likes a more front footed style" and "a little more back foot oriented than the other boards on test" was mentioned in all your waveboard tests I ever read. So now its not a thing?
Actually I made boo-boo.
I was thinking of Boards magazine that always mentioned it
However Windsurf magazine still does a bit - from Windsurf magazine review of the first stubbies..... 2016
"Both the Fanatic and Tabou turn off the back foot during the wave-ride, yet that is where their similarities end, possessing very different characters. "
Windsurf magazine review Nano 93
"..... - a more skatey back-footed style where you can almost pivot the board on its tail to make the most critical bottom turn"
I think what is going on here is we all know a bottom turn is driven thru the front foot. On some boards a bit less front footed, and at the extreme end of "less front footed style is required" we're calling them back foot oriented. But really of course its still a front foot drive, just less .... and/or the ability to give it some back foot at the last second to tighten the bottom turn a lot.
I don't think anyone proposed we do a bottom turn standing on our back foot. However the term has caught on enough that it may be required in talking about different styles. It has merit .... but perhaps "less of a traditional front-foot full rail engagement style bottom turn" - that was a bit of a mouthful so 'back footed' was coined by the pommy mags some 15hrs ago and they ran (amok) with it.
Wave board reviews were a bit like music journalism, both pointless but some how essential reading because they were an attempt to mythologise some creative process that is perhaps not that interesting unless you are in the actual process of listening to the music or using the equipment and being transported into a "flow state".
The numbers and photos of "rockers" was probably the only really useful data.
I disagree. As a bigger guy I always read them to look for the boards that were a little earlier planing and they were correct. And a group concensus on 'feel' was helpful.
My issue is how everything was the best thing ever as they don't want to lose their advertisers. Some boards were clearly hated by almost everyone who bought them later, and 12mths on you could not give them away.... but looking back the mag reviews were amazing.
From reading boards, French and German mags, I have yet to disagree with any of their tests.
Back foot vs front foot:
Look - it just not that hard to figure out.Quite a a bit of Front foot pressure for bottom turn to get speed and drive - a bit more back foot pressure bias in the bottom turn if you want to tighten it up
a bit of backfoot pressure for top turn / slide
or a blend of both to control what you want the board to do
Its basic trim and physics - there are no mysterious other dynamics going on here that i am aware of.
Any board you ride will follow these principles universally.
There might be a little bit of variation based on boom height / style (boom heights have trended lower in the last 10 years and i have joined the party ( - albeit a bit late) and also how the sail is rigged. I am seeing a trend away from flat rigged sails and towards more shapely grunty set ups.
No.
Many respond better or worse to the level of backfoot pressure. If you do that on a many (tighten greatly with back foot) they stall badly. However, some boards really do want that back foot input in a bottom turn (BTW - noting that you originally said you use a lot of either on any board - no, it varies a lot between boards and that why you hated those two boards you mentioned)
So yes its not hard to figure out there is a big long sliding scale between a DTL oriented board and a FSW board. We need a term to describe.
The OP wanted a really nice DTL board that does not sacrifice early planing ability (as many traditionally did) so termed it front footed.
I'm still waiting on the nay-sayers to suggest a better way to describe how boards want to be driven in a bottom turn ????? Cos they're not all the same.... yet a few people here seem to think all wave boards are ridden identically and feel the same which is plainly false. Again, I think we're all in agreeance but some people don't like the term some magazine made up.
Very well explained Reflex.
Each board can be described in it's own terms. Describing a board as front foot or back foot is a load of crap.
As a designer, it's a bit harsh to hear from some magazine guy that rides your board for 5 minutes and then all he's got to say is "yeah that's a front foot board"
It's just a shortcut to thinking.
wide point forward - front foot.
wide point back - back foot.
that's how it;s defined in surfing and it refers to the volume distribution. it's pretty hard to drive a long arc through the back foot with a board that has no volume in the tail because the board stalls. so the sailor naturally weights the front foot more.
No, it's not defined in surfing like that at all. Not even a little bit.
I'm not sure how you came up with that.
Why are you trying to drive a long arc through your back foot ? That doesn't work.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
wide point forward - front foot.
wide point back - back foot.
that's how it;s defined in surfing and it refers to the volume distribution. it's pretty hard to drive a long arc through the back foot with a board that has no volume in the tail because the board stalls. so the sailor naturally weights the front foot more.
If I try to turn my old Exocet 83 x-wave on the small slow moving waves we get by using back foot pressure the tail sinks and board stalls. Its narrow overall, 56cm, and has a narrow pin tail. That plus lack of tail rocker. If it had a wider tail with more volume it could take more pressure. I bought a Goya One 2015 85l, which was shorter, 3cm wider at its widest and 2cm wider in the tail. It turned a lot better for me, but was too slow due to the lack of planing flat. I dont think it was the rocker making the largest difference to how it turned, at slow speeds, it was the volume distribution.
You could sail the Goya off the front foot I guess, but you cant sail a board off the back foot (slowly) if there isnt the area/volume to support it.
Thats how I sailed it anyway, on the waves I sail on. Thats a major thing about wave boards and conditions, sailor skill, objectives, there is so much variety so what works for one person might not work for someone else.
Select to expand quoteMr Hooper said..
No, it's not defined in surfing like that at all. Not even a little bit.
I'm not sure how you came up with that.
Why are you trying to drive a long arc through your back foot ? That doesn't work.
Can't say i came up with it. have seen it mentioned many times by shapers, shops over the years. it always made sense to me.
as an example.
www.hawaiiansouthshore.com/blogs/hawaiian-south-shore-surfing-blog/back-footed-vs-front-footed-surfing
www.jarven.com.au/surfboard-design-aspects
prosurfriding.com/surfboard/surfboard-lean-design.html
www.surfline.com/surf-news/know-youre-front-back-footed-surfer/87632
other than that i don;t really know. think i may be back footed.
Well, if you want to base your whole design philosophy off a cute little article like that with a few pretty pictures as opposed to experience and knowledge then good luck to you.
Enjoy your wide arc, back footed bottom turns !
Select to expand quoteManuel7 said..
From reading boards, French and German mags, I have yet to disagree with any of their tests.
Back foot vs front foot:
I will agree that some of those KS turns are more both feet then front foot.
Look at KP videos for sick front foot riding.
KP and JA boards are completely different.
Don't know if it has anything to do with the boards that they are riding but Kauli's style is far more forward driving whereas Josh seems to be more on his back foot.
Select to expand quotephiln said..Manuel7 said..
From reading boards, French and German mags, I have yet to disagree with any of their tests.
Back foot vs front foot:
I will agree that some of those KS turns are more both feet then front foot.
Look at KP videos for sick front foot riding.
KP and JA boards are completely different.
Don't know if it has anything to do with the boards that they are riding but Kauli's style is far more forward driving whereas Josh seems to be more on his back foot.
The boards complete their style.
Josh Angulo s board will not turn front footed.
Select to expand quoteMr Hooper said..
Well, if you want to base your whole design philosophy off a cute little article like that with a few pretty pictures as opposed to experience and knowledge then good luck to you.
Enjoy your wide arc, back footed bottom turns !
i dont base my designs off cute articles. my boards are functional. i do invest a lot of thought around tail width. still i listen to all ideas including the cute articles because you never know what can be taken away to influence the next idea.
as an example i measure as many boards as i can access from friends. At the beach ill take a close look at others. like if i see one of your boards im very interested to look at rail and bottom contours. your designs are always interesting
i found bernd rodrigers bonzer board super intetesting too.
love experimenting with fins too because of the noticable difference they make. i wonder if Manuel7's reviews are heavily influenced by his fin preferences. on occasion thats my take away.
This topic has made me a believer in Quantum theory and the Multiverse
- clearly there are multiple realities happening all at once.
Or we are simply arguing semantics.
The best fit here is- "it is what it is".
A recent quote that also feels relevant.
" don't mistake questions on your view for animosity"
Select to expand quote
" don't mistake questions on your view for animosity"
words to live by
Elements of the past and elements of the future combining together to make something not quite as good as either.
while we're doing quotes 
So planing is mostly due to total flat area?
Is that data available to manufacturers?
The naval architecture definition of planing is when a hull/board travels faster than a wave of it's own length it overtakes it's own bow wave and the surface tension is released allowing it to skim across the water rather than displacing. ( I think I said that right. Feel free to correct me naval architects)
I don't know of any wave boards that don't plane. Some will plane earlier than others and some will have a higher top end speed.
There are a lot of factors in board design that will effect planing. Rocker is only 1 part of it.
