Select to expand quoteracerX said..w100 said..
PWA Slalom Equipment Update
Dear Friends
We hope you are all safe and well.
Further to the recent calendar updates, we wanted to make you aware of some other changes that will impact future events.
Production equipment rules for slalom are always a major talking point and the sport has been evolving at an incredible rate in recent years. We know that both the brands and the riders need long lead times in order to fully test, develop, tune and train on the equipment they will race on and, as such, all decisions about equipment limits have to be made well in advance.
This requires us to make educated predictions about future evolutions - something that has not been helped by the lack of experience of events due to the pandemic, but the PWA Management Board met recently to discuss the situation in order for us to provide you with good advanced notice of future intentions.
The rules for 2023 have already been published and these will not change. We know how important it is for these rules to remain consistent once announced for the reasons mentioned above, so for 2023, we will stick with the 6 sails and 3 boards rule as previously published.
For 2024 though, we will be making some much more significant changes to the limits, changes designed to reduce costs for brands and riders, to reduce equipment loads required at events and to make racing more accessible to new and upcoming sailors looking to join the tour.
The new rules will see limits reduced to 4 sails, and 2 boards. Sails can be any sails from the PWA registered sails list, and boards may be any 2 boards from the PWA registered slalom boards list.
The maximum sail size will also be reduced to 9m2 for 2024.
Foil registration rules will remain the same with 3 front wings and 2 back wings.
Although this may seem like a fairly major departure from the current limits, we are talking about rules that will not come into effect on the race course for about 2 years, giving plenty of time for development and testing, and we believe that this will be well in line with the predicted evolutionary curve that we are on.
We will have more updates for you in the near future about other changes to PWA event standards, designed to make events far easier to put on, and also the registration process for boards, sails and foils for future years, but we have summarised the rules for you below for simplicity.
2022
6 Sails
4 Boards (only 1 over 85cm wide, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)
1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
2023
6 Sails
3 Boards (only 1 over 85cm wide, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)
1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
2024
4 Sails
2 Boards (any registered slalom boards, foil or fin, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)
1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
We look forward to seeing you on the water soon.
Kind regards
The PWA
That's a bold predicton from the pwa organisers. I predict they row back from that, or I think pwa slalom is doomed. 
I was at this year's defi, I missed the first two races due to illness. it's an amazing event, when it's windy. Just an observation but i did not detect much interest in foils, at least not the sort that might suggest 1200 competitors were might give up the sort of sailing they are currently enjoying, to become elite foilers.
In the past the PWA has snubbed this event by organising Costa bravo at the same time.
Lots of straw man arguments put forward as to why this is the future, I unfortunately don't see it yet.
PWA is all about promotion, if the punters don't follow then your doomed.
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
Do these racers adjust their stabilizer size down when they go down in front wing size?
yes, some(times) and agree re overlap, but it seems to me that most prefer to reduce the angle of the stab before changing down in size. btw, some also change angle of the front wing before changing down/up in size... arggg so many variables...!
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
Taty talking about his love for the fin and his concern for foils taking over, and when asked what two boards he would take on tour in 2024, he immediately states two foil boards. He repeatedly stated he loves foiling
Yes, interesting chat with Taty, and true what he said about fin v. foil v. wing on Bonaire, but then again Sorobonne/Lac Bay is very particular too, and frankly a bit nerve-wracking on a 2k carbon race foil if you don't know exactly where the shallows are. been there done that, and will do it again in a few months, but I can see the attraction of wing foiling over wind foiling on a spot like Bonaire. I do agree though with Taty (and others) that the current path we're on risks killing the fin & leaving the masses behind (remember the 90s...?)
Select to expand quotebel29 said..thedoor said..
Taty talking about his love for the fin and his concern for foils taking over, and when asked what two boards he would take on tour in 2024, he immediately states two foil boards. He repeatedly stated he loves foiling
Yes, interesting chat with Taty, and true what he said about fin v. foil v. wing on Bonaire, but then again Sorobonne/Lac Bay is very particular too, and frankly a bit nerve-wracking on a 2k carbon race foil if you don't know exactly where the shallows are. been there done that, and will do it again in a few months, but I can see the attraction of wing foiling over wind foiling on a spot like Bonaire. I do agree though with Taty (and others) that the current path we're on risks killing the fin & leaving the masses behind (remember the 90s...?)
Honestly in most locations "the masses" are on foil simply because they work in less than ideal conditions.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
Honestly in most locations "the masses" are on foil simply because they work in less than ideal conditions.
agree--in our area foiling (wind or wing) has brought more people (back) to the beach and out on the water, in large part because of its ability to deal with less than perfect conditions.
~43 Minutes in for the 2 board foiling question...
Taty claims that Amado is doing 33.8 knot average on Z-foil 340 cm2 area wing
Taty fastest 32.7kts peak speed. 320 - 340 cm2 area.
Flowing air gybes still possible on tiny wings he recons!
Rumours has it, that PWA 2023 will be two boards and four sails, pretty exciting to see with the brands will come up with. Seems we will get more range from the sails and sails that will work for both fin and foil, hopefully ??
Bring on the future
Select to expand quoteKasper79 said..
Rumours has it, that PWA 2023 will be two boards and four sails, pretty exciting to see with the brands will come up with. Seems we will get more range from the sails and sails that will work for both fin and foil, hopefully ??
Bring on the future
Did you read page 3 of this thread? Thats happening in 2024.
I dont think we will see sails which will work equally well with fin & foil as the dynamics are different. You can use a foil sail on a fin board now and vice versa, but there arent optimal.
Select to expand quotePhilUK said..Kasper79 said..
Rumours has it, that PWA 2023 will be two boards and four sails, pretty exciting to see with the brands will come up with. Seems we will get more range from the sails and sails that will work for both fin and foil, hopefully ??
Bring on the future
Did you read page 3 of this thread? Thats happening in 2024.
I dont think we will see sails which will work equally well with fin & foil as the dynamics are different. You can use a foil sail on a fin board now and vice versa, but there arent optimal.
At least Patrik did not wait :
Sylt slalom.
The wind has picked up today from the 1st eliminations. Taty Frans on fin in elim 6 heat 3, finished 2nd. The rest seem mostly on foil.
Goyard seems off the pace. Has everyone else caught up or is he off form?
Taty made the final, just about. Now will be the test of fin v foil.
A fair few crashes going on. Wind is ranging from mainly 14-19 knots according to the anemometer they have plugged into the feed, but no idea where that meter is.
Select to expand quoteberowne said..
All foils at Sylt... great racing
Absolutely. Definitely not a parade after the first jibe mark. Both races saw battles for podium places. Difficult conditions with that swell.
Thanks for posting!
www.riwmag.com/ifca-riporta-il-divertimento-sulla-tavola/?lang=en
"As a first step for the 2023, IFCA will separate slalom into two independent disciplines:
- Fin Slalom as real fun with medium and strong wind (min 11 nodes)
- Foil Slalom as a light wind option (by 7 a 15 nodes) to ensure official competitions in the widest possible range of conditions
Events can be arranged for the fin slalom, the foil slalom or as combined events. But disciplines will have a separate ranking to ensure runners can choose whether they want to compete in one or the other format or both.."
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
www.riwmag.com/ifca-riporta-il-divertimento-sulla-tavola/?lang=en
"As a first step for the 2023, IFCA will separate slalom into two independent disciplines:
- Fin Slalom as real fun with medium and strong wind (min 11 nodes)
- Foil Slalom as a light wind option (by 7 a 15 nodes) to ensure official competitions in the widest possible range of conditions
Events can be arranged for the fin slalom, the foil slalom or as combined events. But disciplines will have a separate ranking to ensure runners can choose whether they want to compete in one or the other format or both.."
Interesting. A lot of the conversation here has been about sports getting eliminated, just thought I'd share:My first race this weekend hopefully. It was Open Windfoil, Open Wingfoil, Open Kitefoil. Kitefoil was removed due to what looks like lack of participants. Now it's 21 windsurfers and 11 wingsurfers. Not huge, but IQFoil is dominating the open class.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
www.riwmag.com/ifca-riporta-il-divertimento-sulla-tavola/?lang=en
"As a first step for the 2023, IFCA will separate slalom into two independent disciplines:
- Fin Slalom as real fun with medium and strong wind (min 11 nodes)
- Foil Slalom as a light wind option (by 7 a 15 nodes) to ensure official competitions in the widest possible range of conditions
Events can be arranged for the fin slalom, the foil slalom or as combined events. But disciplines will have a separate ranking to ensure runners can choose whether they want to compete in one or the other format or both.."
They had to try for a year, but it was clearly a failure. Everybody trying to be on a foil and the fins often put to the side. Which was fine if the goal was to decide which tool works best in competition at the pro level, but a disaster when so few people actually foil race, or are interested in anything but free-foiling (if they are interested in that ... see San Francisco Bay Area where windfoiling has disappeared)
As the Rigwag referenced above says it: "Many people appreciate foiling in light wind conditions as it helps increase the number of water days or is the"Life insurance for events". But there are very few riders who really like to sail in strong winds.. Many people feel insecure and do not want to hurt themselves or even others in conditions beyond their control.. Then, instead of accessing foil, Many of these runners decide to quit competitions."
It is a transition period for everybody, witness the abrupt end of Goyard domination after just two years of racing. We'll see how this develops. Maybe for the next generation of sailors windfoiling will be the only specialty, but for the sailors in current generations, say people aged 25 to 75, fin is here to stay, especially in winds more than 11-12 knots. Or below with recreational gear (windsurf LT anybody?). It is hard to beat a finboard for performance and practicality.
Still begs the question whether this will increase the number of races and/or racers.
It seems to me that most organizers will still prefer to organize mixed events so as to maximize the chances of valid races, which means that racers will still travel with both fin and foil sets. I know, rankings will be separate, so you could choose to do only one discipline, but in reality who would travel to an event with only fin or foil gear, only to see everyone else compete on foil or fin because there isn't enough (or there is too much) wind. Seems to me that limiting the gear choice (max 1 foil board/1 front wing, and 2 slalom boards) is a more direct way to achieve the same result.
Select to expand quotebel29 said..
Still begs the question whether this will increase the number of races and/or racers.
It seems to me that most organizers will still prefer to organize mixed events so as to maximize the chances of valid races, which means that racers will still travel with both fin and foil sets. I know, rankings will be separate, so you could choose to do only one discipline, but in reality who would travel to an event with only fin or foil gear, only to see everyone else compete on foil or fin because there isn't enough (or there is too much) wind. Seems to me that limiting the gear choice (max 1 foil board/1 front wing, and 2 slalom boards) is a more direct way to achieve the same result.
We had a mixed event last year over the new years period here called the Swan River Festival of Windsurfing. It was 4 days of racing where participants could choose what they wanted to use in the different race types (wind foil, LT, Wingfoil, Formula, Fin Slalom, Freeride etc). There was upwind/downwind course, traditional slalom races, and figure 8 slalom racing. Conditions ranged from 25 knots on the first days upwind/downwind course race to 10 - 15 and a bit above during the slalom racing. Everyone just chose their weapon and lived and died by the conditions, but it was a fantastic event that brought the extreme sail sports community closer together and hopefully will continue to happen each year.
Select to expand quoteMaddlad said..bel29 said..
Still begs the question whether this will increase the number of races and/or racers.
It seems to me that most organizers will still prefer to organize mixed events so as to maximize the chances of valid races, which means that racers will still travel with both fin and foil sets. I know, rankings will be separate, so you could choose to do only one discipline, but in reality who would travel to an event with only fin or foil gear, only to see everyone else compete on foil or fin because there isn't enough (or there is too much) wind. Seems to me that limiting the gear choice (max 1 foil board/1 front wing, and 2 slalom boards) is a more direct way to achieve the same result.
We had a mixed event last year over the new years period here called the Swan River Festival of Windsurfing. It was 4 days of racing where participants could choose what they wanted to use in the different race types (wind foil, LT, Wingfoil, Formula, Fin Slalom, Freeride etc). There was upwind/downwind course, traditional slalom races, and figure 8 slalom racing. Conditions ranged from 25 knots on the first days upwind/downwind course race to 10 - 15 and a bit above during the slalom racing. Everyone just chose their weapon and lived and died by the conditions, but it was a fantastic event that brought the extreme sail sports community closer together and hopefully will continue to happen each year.
Maybe this is the go for recreational events. No kites?
Which discipline took the title? wing or wind foil would be my guess
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
www.riwmag.com/ifca-riporta-il-divertimento-sulla-tavola/?lang=en
"As a first step for the 2023, IFCA will separate slalom into two independent disciplines:
- Fin Slalom as real fun with medium and strong wind (min 11 nodes)
- Foil Slalom as a light wind option (by 7 a 15 nodes) to ensure official competitions in the widest possible range of conditions
Events can be arranged for the fin slalom, the foil slalom or as combined events. But disciplines will have a separate ranking to ensure runners can choose whether they want to compete in one or the other format or both.."
Is IFCA different than PWA?
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
Is IFCA different than PWA?
Completely different. For the youth and up & comers it is often seen as a stepping stone to the PWA. For the seniors its often the best of the national sailors who aren't at the level or most likely don't have the time to commit to the PWA. (i.e. they also have a real job...) Mixed in with a few of the world best who like to do the comp. For the Masters it is the top of the tree.
Unlike the PWA, IFCA has national reps who have a voice in IFCA, but at the same time the national organisation do there own thing. A very long time ago I think Australia has hosted an IFCA event.
This is not a huge change for IFCA because while they previously had the ability to run an international open fleet competition they didn't run any (i.e. combined).
They have not announced the IFCA events for 2023, depending on where it is its possible that nobody turns up with a foil, or there is no foiling as it not the main thing for IFCA. The successful fin format stays the same. They also might find a good sponsor with significant light wind periods, e.g. afternoon in lake garda (strong wind is usually before 9am)
IMHO it is mainly a confirmation that open slather mixed fleets don't work, and they are proposing a format for a combined regatta with separate fleets when it makes sense (It won't in many places).
We just held a mixed slalom event.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/New-South-Wales/NSW-Wind-Series-2022-2023?page=1#21
Next race next weekend in NSW @ Lake Macquarie - windwings/windfoils/fins invited!
WindFoils were faster than Fins in light winds... on average but a fin catching a gust can still get a good 2s top speed (for GPS categorie results).
Fins were faster and more stable when windier - especially in 1m swell! I got 2nd on foil vs fins in 1 race but by the next race the swell doubled and I lost my mojo!
WindWings were slower than fast fins/windfoils but faster than slow and I've heard one guy cracked 30kts on windwing so getting comparable!
The people that had foils and fins had a better time than those that rode just 1.
For our fleet, slalom on foil with a 7.7m sail then flipping to fin on 111L boards when it gets too much is about right. So no need for 8.4 or 9.5m sails, and swap big slalom 85cm for 91cm foil board. 4 sails 2 boards could work well. If you ride foil longer, get a smaller slalom board. A foil set costs about the same as a 3rd slalom board.
Also Next Course Race @ Jervis Bay 19 & 20 of November
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/New-South-Wales/WNSW-Foil-Racing-Calendar-2022-2023-season?page=1#186
Select to expand quoteberowne said..
We just held a mixed slalom event.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/New-South-Wales/NSW-Wind-Series-2022-2023?page=1#21
Next race next weekend in NSW @ Lake Macquarie - windwings/windfoils/fins invited!
WindFoils were faster than Fins in light winds... on average but a fin catching a gust can still get a good 2s top speed (for GPS categorie results).
Fins were faster and more stable when windier - especially in 1m swell! I got 2nd on foil vs fins in 1 race but by the next race the swell doubled and I lost my mojo!
WindWings were slower than fast fins/windfoils but faster than slow and I've heard one guy cracked 30kts on windwing so getting comparable!
The people that had foils and fins had a better time than those that rode just 1.
For our fleet, slalom on foil with a 7.7m sail then flipping to fin on 111L boards when it gets too much is about right. So no need for 8.4 or 9.5m sails, and swap big slalom 85cm for 91cm foil board. 4 sails 2 boards could work well. If you ride foil longer, get a smaller slalom board. A foil set costs about the same as a 3rd slalom board.
Also Next Course Race @ Jervis Bay 19 & 20 of November
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/New-South-Wales/WNSW-Foil-Racing-Calendar-2022-2023-season?page=1#186
I think this is exactly how they thought it would work in PWA when they combined fin and foil. They just didn't expect Nico Goyard to show up with 400cm front wing and ride the foil against the fins and win in heavy air.
Select to expand quoteberowne said..
We just held a mixed slalom event.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/New-South-Wales/NSW-Wind-Series-2022-2023?page=1#21
Next race next weekend in NSW @ Lake Macquarie - windwings/windfoils/fins invited!
That's a great example of the locals creating a comp that suits the conditions and people who want to sail. (Sydney is my home town btw, I live in the UK and come home regularly over summer I will come to an event if I can)
But would you run the same format if you had 60 to 100 entrants? And what if you had an away day and all went to say Maui in the summer?
Some epic battles in JAPAN if you havn't watched it you missed a lot. Replays on Facebook/Youtube.
Will McMillan THA1 and Sammie Costin AUS420 in Runners Up Finals! '
Check Elimination Ladder for THA1 in mens and AUS420 in womens to know which heats to seek.
www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?id=38&tx_pwaevent_pi1%5BshowUid%5D=334&cHash=402bd06b998a60bf33c79052c6c6aca0
The foils are still dominating, largely due to foiling gybes, as opposed to not planing out on the fin. but its close enough that it's still leaving me wondering how the foils will go in more hectic conditions. They haven't really played in a proper windy/choppy location yet since foils have been adopted for slalom.
