Select to expand quoteFormuIa said..
From money and sponsors' perspective: foil racing can be done in a variety of conditions, e.g. you don't need a perfect high wind spot to create a PWA slalom course. It can be done in other locations, where the wind is lighter but steadier, and the crowds are closer to the course. Sure, it's less "all gas no brakes" and adrenaline pumping, but OTOH, it's technique, tactics, finesse, and a learning curve for everyone whereas traditional fin slalom seemed to only have incremental improvements. The sport has evolved, though this also means the gear gets much more expensive compared to fins...
It will be interesting to see what the pros can do on foils. For us mere mortals, a fin is still easier or faster to ride in certain conditions, but also this is improving in favor of foil and tech progress. When I started foiling I never imagined I could control a big 9-10 m2 rig in 20+ kt gusts on a race foil, but now it gets enjoyable and not as scary as going downwind with FW and 12 m2 in the same conditions.
Are your foil speeds reaching your fins speeds yet?
I agree with mr love re the future of PWA racing. Budgets are tight and getting tighter, so hard choices will need to be made.
The high-end foiling on display (with some) at the Defi is not representative of the market and is likely to remain niche for a while yet (if not, ever). My guess is that voices for an approach like the one adopted by the AFF this year (Association Fran?aise de Funboard, the French national tour, of course being among the most competitive in the world) will gain traction from several brands (and riders) as a way to save the fin. Unlike last year (and unlike PWA 2021/22) AFF is no longer mixing fin and foil on the same course. Instead at the start of each day of competition a decision is made whether to race on foil or fin on the basis of the (expected) conditions (wind strength, water state, etc.)--and they'll stick to that choice for the day irrespective of any wind changes, etc. The fin and foil results are combined for the national slalom title. Some guys (like Phantom rider Lucas G) are only doing the foil races, while others do both (or fin only). Some of the top French guys (incl former world champion Pierre M) have already spoken out in favor of adopting this system at the PWA. We'll see!
Ps: personally I'm all-in for high-wind slalom foiling on tiny wings and sails, but as others have also remarked can't totally give up on fin as we sometimes race in areas where there is never enough water depth for foiling...
Select to expand quotethedoor said..FormuIa said..
From money and sponsors' perspective: foil racing can be done in a variety of conditions, e.g. you don't need a perfect high wind spot to create a PWA slalom course. It can be done in other locations, where the wind is lighter but steadier, and the crowds are closer to the course. Sure, it's less "all gas no brakes" and adrenaline pumping, but OTOH, it's technique, tactics, finesse, and a learning curve for everyone whereas traditional fin slalom seemed to only have incremental improvements. The sport has evolved, though this also means the gear gets much more expensive compared to fins...
It will be interesting to see what the pros can do on foils. For us mere mortals, a fin is still easier or faster to ride in certain conditions, but also this is improving in favor of foil and tech progress. When I started foiling I never imagined I could control a big 9-10 m2 rig in 20+ kt gusts on a race foil, but now it gets enjoyable and not as scary as going downwind with FW and 12 m2 in the same conditions.
Are your foil speeds reaching your fins speeds yet?
This is the wrong question from a racing perspective (the topic of the discussion). In any racing discipline the winner is the one who's fastest around the course, not the one who's fastest in a straight line. Even at the Defi Wind with 10km reaches it was not always about speed--just ask Antoine Q for instance (an ace foiler but who only raced fin on this occasion); he came back on the foils a number of times when the reach was a bit broader, but fell back when the angle was tighter--and this is without factoring in the start, jibe roundings, lulls, weeds, etc.
This makes sense to me:
It is important to look at it from a perspective of the sponsors and organizers of the events.
You want action, best way to do that is to be able to race in a wide range of conditions. To ensure that you need foil and fin.
Deciding on what type to use on a specific day can be limiting as conditions tend to change.
Also from a riders point of view, I mean if there are 4 slalom events a year in PWA and 3 don't have enough wind to do proper slalom on fin but there is enough to race on foil this must be done to have a competition.
I understand Pierre Mortefon is fan of the French system because he is pretty good in both and will give him the best chances of a new world title. Nicolas Goyard is not beatable in foil at the moment so Pierre cannot compete, add forced fin races and Nicolas is done.
The new Olympic foil class added a lot of new riders to the game. They will be competing in PWA events if foils are allowed to race against fins. Look how popular it is. There were 100's riders competing in Lake Garda last month, woman and men. Top PWA guys that are top riders for many years struggled against the new talent. I cannot see this as a negative thing for the sport.
Personally I like watching PWA with foils more than regular slalom. Much more action and crashes and unexpected results.
Select to expand quotebel29 said..
I agree with mr love re the future of PWA racing. Budgets are tight and getting tighter, so hard choices will need to be made.
The high-end foiling on display (with some) at the Defi is not representative of the market and is likely to remain niche for a while yet (if not, ever). My guess is that voices for an approach like the one adopted by the AFF this year (Association Fran?aise de Funboard, the French national tour, of course being among the most competitive in the world) will gain traction from several brands (and riders) as a way to save the fin. Unlike last year (and unlike PWA 2021/22) AFF is no longer mixing fin and foil on the same course. Instead at the start of each day of competition a decision is made whether to race on foil or fin on the basis of the (expected) conditions (wind strength, water state, etc.)--and they'll stick to that choice for the day irrespective of any wind changes, etc. The fin and foil results are combined for the national slalom title. Some guys (like Phantom rider Lucas G) are only doing the foil races, while others do both (or fin only). Some of the top French guys (incl former world champion Pierre M) have already spoken out in favor of adopting this system at the PWA. We'll see!
Ps: personally I'm all-in for high-wind slalom foiling on tiny wings and sails, but as others have also remarked can't totally give up on fin as we sometimes race in areas where there is never enough water depth for foiling...
The problem with splitting slalom into separate fin or foil days will be the amount of equipment required. A split event like the AFF will now require full fin setups ( 3 boards ? and sails for 10 to 30 knots?) plus foil setups ( 2 boards ?and sails for 6 to 25 knots?)
Best to combine the two and let competitors decide what they feel faster on.
There's only 2 5 star men's pwa slalom events (Fuentes & Sylt) confirmed for '22 so very unlikely to be a rebel tour.
I am not buying or selling...just observing what is happening. My gut strongly tells me that if it continues the way it is and athletes decide , its inevitable that foils will dominate over fin in PWA racing. Eventually the pro athletes wil go ...f..k the fin, I need to be competitive on the foil or I dont stand a chance of being on the podium. Just look at Defi...a strong wind event and all but 1 race won on a foil, and by the way a distance event with less gybes.
If the powers to be want to save fin racing at an elite level they will need to do something.....
I like them both being in the same event because it shows whos the best over all conditions on different equipment. 
The real test of the PWA fin vs foil debate will be a windy PWA event in Fuerteventura in the last week of July.
Select to expand quotemr love said..
I am not buying or selling...just observing what is happening. My gut strongly tells me that if it continues the way it is and athletes decide , its inevitable that foils will dominate over fin in PWA racing. Eventually the pro athletes wil go ...f..k the fin, I need to be competitive on the foil or I dont stand a chance of being on the podium. Just look at Defi...a strong wind event and all but 1 race won on a foil, and by the way a distance event with less gybes.
If the powers to be want to save fin racing at an elite level they will need to do something.....
Good point, there was a 9 kilometer run on one leg, maybe the race organizers were trying to give fins a better chance at wining?
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..mr love said..
I am not buying or selling...just observing what is happening. My gut strongly tells me that if it continues the way it is and athletes decide , its inevitable that foils will dominate over fin in PWA racing. Eventually the pro athletes wil go ...f..k the fin, I need to be competitive on the foil or I dont stand a chance of being on the podium. Just look at Defi...a strong wind event and all but 1 race won on a foil, and by the way a distance event with less gybes.
If the powers to be want to save fin racing at an elite level they will need to do something.....
Good point, there was a 9 kilometer run on one leg, maybe the race organizers were trying to give fins a better chance at wining?Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..mr love said..
I am not buying or selling...just observing what is happening. My gut strongly tells me that if it continues the way it is and athletes decide , its inevitable that foils will dominate over fin in PWA racing. Eventually the pro athletes wil go ...f..k the fin, I need to be competitive on the foil or I dont stand a chance of being on the podium. Just look at Defi...a strong wind event and all but 1 race won on a foil, and by the way a distance event with less gybes.
If the powers to be want to save fin racing at an elite level they will need to do something.....
Good point, there was a 9 kilometer run on one leg, maybe the race organizers were trying to give fins a better chance at wining?
They did indeed as the minimum wind speed was increased (to 20 knots) after the Defi-wind Superstars from last November .
So now I will be controversial. I am looking at a world in the not too distant future where the foils are beating the fins in everything except the stongest of winds..30 knots plus. Its not too hard to imagine. On the PWA calender you have 1 event in the year where it could be held in those conditions..so the fleet is primariliy on foils except for that 1 event which by the way is held on a moderately remote island. Would not the athletes and organisers come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense to have 1 event where the athletes need to take fin gear and foil gear ( incase the wind dissapoints) and just hold it somewhere where they get 20 knots, there is less expensive travel involved and you get bigger crowds which will draw more sponsorship and prize money?? 
Or you have the foil specialist just not going to that event so it will naturally die as bugger all athletes turn up.
The theory of evolution.
Just wait till you see the PWA equipment rules for 2023 and 2024.
Foil is here to stay. Evolve or disappear
Select to expand quotemr love said..
So now I will be controversial. I am looking at a world in the not too distant future where the foils are beating the fins in everything except the stongest of winds..30 knots plus. Its not too hard to imagine. On the PWA calender you have 1 event in the year where it could be held in those conditions..so the fleet is primariliy on foils except for that 1 event which by the way is held on a moderately remote island. Would not the athletes and organisers come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense to have 1 event where the athletes need to take fin gear and foil gear ( incase the wind dissapoints) and just hold it somewhere where they get 20 knots, there is less expensive travel involved and you get bigger crowds which will draw more sponsorship and prize money??
Or you have the foil specialist just not going to that event so it will naturally die as bugger all athletes turn up.
The theory of evolution.
You are possibly right but my argument still carries that foils only work in deep water no weed places. In the L to L race the foils struggled with hitting the weed. Fins no issues. Invy, foils have to stay in the channel's or sail at a good high tide. If the PWA goes foils only then rec sailing might be just fins or the diehards that love a good slapping 
Select to expand quotekato said..mr love said..
So now I will be controversial. I am looking at a world in the not too distant future where the foils are beating the fins in everything except the stongest of winds..30 knots plus. Its not too hard to imagine. On the PWA calender you have 1 event in the year where it could be held in those conditions..so the fleet is primariliy on foils except for that 1 event which by the way is held on a moderately remote island. Would not the athletes and organisers come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense to have 1 event where the athletes need to take fin gear and foil gear ( incase the wind dissapoints) and just hold it somewhere where they get 20 knots, there is less expensive travel involved and you get bigger crowds which will draw more sponsorship and prize money??
Or you have the foil specialist just not going to that event so it will naturally die as bugger all athletes turn up.
The theory of evolution.
You are possibly right but my argument still carries that foils only work in deep water no weed places. In the L to L race the foils struggled with hitting the weed. Fins no issues. Invy, foils have to stay in the channel's or sail at a good high tide. If the PWA goes foils only then rec sailing might be just fins or the diehards that love a good slapping
Yes..but name me a PWA race event where they need to use weed fins or deltas?? Remember this discussion is about fins / foils in PWA not what normal people will sail.
I am just playing devils advocate....if the PWA want fin racing to survive at that elite level then they will need to do something to protect it....if they do nothing it will run its natural couse and fin racing at the PWA will become a memory...thats my prediction.
Select to expand quotemr love said..kato said..mr love said..
So now I will be controversial. I am looking at a world in the not too distant future where the foils are beating the fins in everything except the stongest of winds..30 knots plus. Its not too hard to imagine. On the PWA calender you have 1 event in the year where it could be held in those conditions..so the fleet is primariliy on foils except for that 1 event which by the way is held on a moderately remote island. Would not the athletes and organisers come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense to have 1 event where the athletes need to take fin gear and foil gear ( incase the wind dissapoints) and just hold it somewhere where they get 20 knots, there is less expensive travel involved and you get bigger crowds which will draw more sponsorship and prize money??
Or you have the foil specialist just not going to that event so it will naturally die as bugger all athletes turn up.
The theory of evolution.
You are possibly right but my argument still carries that foils only work in deep water no weed places. In the L to L race the foils struggled with hitting the weed. Fins no issues. Invy, foils have to stay in the channel's or sail at a good high tide. If the PWA goes foils only then rec sailing might be just fins or the diehards that love a good slapping
Yes..but name me a PWA race event where they need to use weed fins or deltas?? Remember this discussion is about fins / foils in PWA not what normal people will sail.
I am just playing devils advocate....if the PWA want fin racing to survive at that elite level then they will need to do something to protect it....if they do nothing it will run its natural couse and fin racing at the PWA will become a memory...thats my prediction.
Agreed. And i expect foils to evolve to the point where there is no upper wind limit. Goyard did it in defi, but most riders are not used to riding front wings small enough to handle 30+ knots so they switch to fin. But next season many more will be capable on 350sqcm wings and they won't be switching to fin just like goyard
Select to expand quotethedoor said..mr love said..kato said..mr love said..
So now I will be controversial. I am looking at a world in the not too distant future where the foils are beating the fins in everything except the stongest of winds..30 knots plus. Its not too hard to imagine. On the PWA calender you have 1 event in the year where it could be held in those conditions..so the fleet is primariliy on foils except for that 1 event which by the way is held on a moderately remote island. Would not the athletes and organisers come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense to have 1 event where the athletes need to take fin gear and foil gear ( incase the wind dissapoints) and just hold it somewhere where they get 20 knots, there is less expensive travel involved and you get bigger crowds which will draw more sponsorship and prize money??
Or you have the foil specialist just not going to that event so it will naturally die as bugger all athletes turn up.
The theory of evolution.
You are possibly right but my argument still carries that foils only work in deep water no weed places. In the L to L race the foils struggled with hitting the weed. Fins no issues. Invy, foils have to stay in the channel's or sail at a good high tide. If the PWA goes foils only then rec sailing might be just fins or the diehards that love a good slapping
Yes..but name me a PWA race event where they need to use weed fins or deltas?? Remember this discussion is about fins / foils in PWA not what normal people will sail.
I am just playing devils advocate....if the PWA want fin racing to survive at that elite level then they will need to do something to protect it....if they do nothing it will run its natural couse and fin racing at the PWA will become a memory...thats my prediction.
Agreed. And i expect foils to evolve to the point where there is no upper wind limit. Goyard did it in defi, but most riders are not used to riding front wings small enough to handle 30+ knots so they switch to fin. But next season many more will be capable on 350sqcm wings and they won't be switching to fin just like goyard
Still, it's been a full year since Goyard beat them in the Tiberias event.
In November, he would have won the Superstar edition of the Defi wind if he hadn't made the "check in/out" mistake.
Now, again he wins 4 out of 5 races..
What's keeping the rest of the pack : skill of technical development ?
imho the foil is a logical evolution in a technological sport : impossible to use in shallow spots or places with weed but on the other hand a "life saver" in spots with marginal and/or gusty conditions where people now can (at least) double their TOW.
For those who like to compete in a "levellled playing ground" there's the "one design" class like the IQ foil, but then, what's "levelled" if you have to weigh 100kg to be competitive..?
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
Are your foil speeds reaching your fins speeds yet?
Max speeds most likely not. I've never pushed for those on a formula board, 67 fin and 9+ m sail. Also don't have a reliable GPS to measure this.
Other speeds, yes: average 1-3 hr speeds, reaches with jibes, going round the course, that is all faster when I look at the older session logs. And this is with race gear, so mostly 9-10 m2 sails and 900-1000 wings. Though my skill level is average, especially compared to experienced FW guys and other decent local foilers, I am faster on (race) foils than I used to be on FW gear.
For instance, foiling side to side with one of the best local FW guys on 10.7 m2 and me on 10 m2 foil gear, I absolutely smoked him downwind in terms of VMG. Wasn't even close. While upwind we were comparable (and a better foiler than me would be able to point deeper/faster), again the foil has an advantage when it comes to jibing. E.g. he was a bit faster on the reaches, because of my lack of technique and balls, but lost on the jibes. Overall, I would be faster on a course race with the foil compared to FW gear (and the latter was already decent: latest-gen race sails and fins).
Bottom line: even for inexperienced recreational riders, foils can be faster after the initial learning phase. But guess I don't need to emphasize how much fun they are Especially when you don't have to deal with 12 m2 rigs.
Going back to the PWA, it would be interesting to be the proverbial fly on the wall when the big shots are debating this :) But light surfers were never really super competitive in PWA slalom, in RSX yes, and also in FW in light conditions.
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
Are your foil speeds reaching your fins speeds yet?
Last year in Israel, Nico's speed were about 1 knot slower than the speeds of the fastest fin sailors (34 vs 35 kn, IIRC). He won many races in the jibes. Often, he came into the first mark in 3rd or 4th place, jibed very wide, and came out first.
As a long distance event, things are very different at the Defi wind. Runs are 20+ times as long as in a slalom race, with very few jibes. The start, which plays a huge role in slalom, is less important, too. Given Nico's wins in 4 out of 5 races, it seems that the foil has caught up with fin speeds in "real world" conditions.
It will be interesting to see what happens in Fuerteventura and Sylt, where the chop tends to be a lot higher. For Sylt, it's likely that races will be done in less wind, since they run waves and freestyle on the windier days. But Fuerte should be rather interesting. From what I currently see in Cabarete, which also has some noticeable chop & swell on the inside of the bay, I would not be surprised if Nico also dominates. Regular windsurfers here are quite slow due to the chop and the wave gear they use; quite often, the best wingers look faster, both when going back upwind and when getting ready to jump. That seems to be a natural consequence of the smaller front wings, skills and experience, and just not hitting the chop. Most or all of the good wingers are out to play with the swell, which is really great for winging, and not for speed, so seeing them being the fastest on the water is somewhat surprising. Windfoils are quite rare here, though, and the few that are out are on freeride gear, not race gear.
Select to expand quote
source : surf-forum.com/forum/thread/25980-pwa-slalom-equipment-update/
PWA Slalom Equipment Update
Dear Friends
We hope you are all safe and well.
Further to the recent calendar updates, we wanted to make you aware of some other changes that will impact future events.
Production equipment rules for slalom are always a major talking point and the sport has been evolving at an incredible rate in recent years. We know that both the brands and the riders need long lead times in order to fully test, develop, tune and train on the equipment they will race on and, as such, all decisions about equipment limits have to be made well in advance.
This requires us to make educated predictions about future evolutions - something that has not been helped by the lack of experience of events due to the pandemic, but the PWA Management Board met recently to discuss the situation in order for us to provide you with good advanced notice of future intentions.
The rules for 2023 have already been published and these will not change. We know how important it is for these rules to remain consistent once announced for the reasons mentioned above, so for 2023, we will stick with the 6 sails and 3 boards rule as previously published.
For 2024 though, we will be making some much more significant changes to the limits, changes designed to reduce costs for brands and riders, to reduce equipment loads required at events and to make racing more accessible to new and upcoming sailors looking to join the tour.
The new rules will see limits reduced to 4 sails, and 2 boards. Sails can be any sails from the PWA registered sails list, and boards may be any 2 boards from the PWA registered slalom boards list.
The maximum sail size will also be reduced to 9m2 for 2024.
Foil registration rules will remain the same with 3 front wings and 2 back wings.
Although this may seem like a fairly major departure from the current limits, we are talking about rules that will not come into effect on the race course for about 2 years, giving plenty of time for development and testing, and we believe that this will be well in line with the predicted evolutionary curve that we are on.
We will have more updates for you in the near future about other changes to PWA event standards, designed to make events far easier to put on, and also the registration process for boards, sails and foils for future years, but we have summarised the rules for you below for simplicity.
20226 Sails4 Boards (only 1 over 85cm wide, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
20236 Sails3 Boards (only 1 over 85cm wide, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
20244 Sails2 Boards (any registered slalom boards, foil or fin, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
We look forward to seeing you on the water soon.
Kind regards
The PWA
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
Windfoils are quite rare here, though, and the few that are out are on freeride gear, not race gear.
Was one of the rare once there last year--inside the reef was still ok; outside though in the swell is where the fun really starts on race foil
Select to expand quoteBellerophon said..
source : surf-forum.com/forum/thread/25980-pwa-slalom-equipment-update/
PWA Slalom Equipment Update
Dear Friends
We hope you are all safe and well.
Further to the recent calendar updates, we wanted to make you aware of some other changes that will impact future events.
Production equipment rules for slalom are always a major talking point and the sport has been evolving at an incredible rate in recent years. We know that both the brands and the riders need long lead times in order to fully test, develop, tune and train on the equipment they will race on and, as such, all decisions about equipment limits have to be made well in advance.
This requires us to make educated predictions about future evolutions - something that has not been helped by the lack of experience of events due to the pandemic, but the PWA Management Board met recently to discuss the situation in order for us to provide you with good advanced notice of future intentions.
The rules for 2023 have already been published and these will not change. We know how important it is for these rules to remain consistent once announced for the reasons mentioned above, so for 2023, we will stick with the 6 sails and 3 boards rule as previously published.
For 2024 though, we will be making some much more significant changes to the limits, changes designed to reduce costs for brands and riders, to reduce equipment loads required at events and to make racing more accessible to new and upcoming sailors looking to join the tour.
The new rules will see limits reduced to 4 sails, and 2 boards. Sails can be any sails from the PWA registered sails list, and boards may be any 2 boards from the PWA registered slalom boards list.
The maximum sail size will also be reduced to 9m2 for 2024.
Foil registration rules will remain the same with 3 front wings and 2 back wings.
Although this may seem like a fairly major departure from the current limits, we are talking about rules that will not come into effect on the race course for about 2 years, giving plenty of time for development and testing, and we believe that this will be well in line with the predicted evolutionary curve that we are on.
We will have more updates for you in the near future about other changes to PWA event standards, designed to make events far easier to put on, and also the registration process for boards, sails and foils for future years, but we have summarised the rules for you below for simplicity.
20226 Sails4 Boards (only 1 over 85cm wide, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
20236 Sails3 Boards (only 1 over 85cm wide, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
20244 Sails2 Boards (any registered slalom boards, foil or fin, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
We look forward to seeing you on the water soon.
Kind regards
The PWA
So due to foils the total amount of sails, boards, and now foils is much less than now. Less equipment to take to the airport, but likely more strategy about what equipment to select at the beginning of the season.
Does this mean a lot more hybrid style fin/foil PWA boards and sails?
Select to expand quoteBellerophon said..
source : surf-forum.com/forum/thread/25980-pwa-slalom-equipment-update/
PWA Slalom Equipment Update
20244 Sails2 Boards (any registered slalom boards, foil or fin, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)
We look forward to seeing you on the water soon.
Kind regards
The PWA
very interesting, thanks for sharing. return to the old "slalom 42" format! not sure what this means for the fin/foil battle, but I suspect advantage will (continue to) go to the latter... reducing amount of gear though is in everyone's interest!
on the broader discussion re PWA and who it is for: the riders, the spectators, the media, the general public... while it's a bit of everything, the real power lies with the (larger) manufacturers, who I would think have a longer-term interest in keeping the fin alive. the return to slalom 42 seems to indicate that lessens were learned from the experience of the early 90s with run-away development and proliferation of ever more technical slalom gear.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..thedoor said..
Are your foil speeds reaching your fins speeds yet?
Last year in Israel, Nico's speed were about 1 knot slower than the speeds of the fastest fin sailors (34 vs 35 kn, IIRC). He won many races in the jibes. Often, he came into the first mark in 3rd or 4th place, jibed very wide, and came out first.
As a long distance event, things are very different at the Defi wind. Runs are 20+ times as long as in a slalom race, with very few jibes. The start, which plays a huge role in slalom, is less important, too. Given Nico's wins in 4 out of 5 races, it seems that the foil has caught up with fin speeds in "real world" conditions.
It will be interesting to see what happens in Fuerteventura and Sylt, where the chop tends to be a lot higher. For Sylt, it's likely that races will be done in less wind, since they run waves and freestyle on the windier days. But Fuerte should be rather interesting. From what I currently see in Cabarete, which also has some noticeable chop & swell on the inside of the bay, I would not be surprised if Nico also dominates. Regular windsurfers here are quite slow due to the chop and the wave gear they use; quite often, the best wingers look faster, both when going back upwind and when getting ready to jump. That seems to be a natural consequence of the smaller front wings, skills and experience, and just not hitting the chop. Most or all of the good wingers are out to play with the swell, which is really great for winging, and not for speed, so seeing them being the fastest on the water is somewhat surprising. Windfoils are quite rare here, though, and the few that are out are on freeride gear, not race gear.
My observation is that wings seem much slower than windsurfs even in very choppy conditions. In probably one of the worst places for chop on the planet (Crissy Field, San Francisco) the speed hierarchy going against the chop is Kite-foil and Wind-foil, which are pretty much immune, windsurf, kite, and good last wings. Downwind, even in big chop and swell, wind-foil and windsurf switch places.
About Defi, what surprised me was to see so few pros on foil. As somebody mentioned it has been one year since Goyard won a PWA event and I would have expected more pros to be foiling. It is probably a matter of time before they do, but it is an indication of how hard it is to foil race in high wind.
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..
About Defi, what surprised me was to see so few pros on foil. As somebody mentioned it has been one year since Goyard won a PWA event and I would have expected more pros to be foiling. It is probably a matter of time before they do, but it is an indication of how hard it is to foil race in high wind.
How many pros had a full cammed foil race sail in the right size? I saw Goyard had them (down to 3.7), of course, and Albeau (down to 4.4?), but I bet that the people didn't have one because their sponsors didn't even make them.
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..
About Defi, what surprised me was to see so few pros on foil. As somebody mentioned it has been one year since Goyard won a PWA event and I would have expected more pros to be foiling. It is probably a matter of time before they do, but it is an indication of how hard it is to foil race in high wind.
don't underestimate the gear shortage even among the top riders. antoine for instance got his new sails literally days before the event (unheard of!), but many still don't have their small foil boards and sails--and that's presuming that their brand(s) is/are producing them. also, Defi wind is very special/different from what anyone on the pro tour is generally training for. take Rytis for instance--super fit guy, has been training through winter in el medano, has done several big iQ events already this year, but had to retire halfway through the first reach of the first race because his backfoot was cramping up...
Select to expand quoteaeroegnr said..duzzi said..
About Defi, what surprised me was to see so few pros on foil. As somebody mentioned it has been one year since Goyard won a PWA event and I would have expected more pros to be foiling. It is probably a matter of time before they do, but it is an indication of how hard it is to foil race in high wind.
How many pros had a full cammed foil race sail in the right size? I saw Goyard had them (down to 3.7), of course, and Albeau (down to 4.4?), but I bet that the people didn't have one because their sponsors didn't even make them.
indeed! William H (Duotone/Fanatic) had a 4.5 proto warp foil 2022 (=smallest currently in production) cut down by a local sail maker in Brittany to 3.7, just for the Defi...
Select to expand quotebel29 said..duzzi said..
About Defi, what surprised me was to see so few pros on foil. As somebody mentioned it has been one year since Goyard won a PWA event and I would have expected more pros to be foiling. It is probably a matter of time before they do, but it is an indication of how hard it is to foil race in high wind.
don't underestimate the gear shortage even among the top riders. antoine for instance got his new sails literally days before the event (unheard of!), but many still don't have their small foil boards and sails--and that's presuming that their brand(s) is/are producing them ...
I forgot about that! the whole racing sail line has been indeed pushed down two squared meters by foiling!
Select to expand quotebel29 said..duzzi said..
About Defi, what surprised me was to see so few pros on foil. As somebody mentioned it has been one year since Goyard won a PWA event and I would have expected more pros to be foiling. It is probably a matter of time before they do, but it is an indication of how hard it is to foil race in high wind.
don't underestimate the gear shortage even among the top riders. antoine for instance got his new sails literally days before the event (unheard of!), but many still don't have their small foil boards and sails--and that's presuming that their brand(s) is/are producing them. also, Defi wind is very special/different from what anyone on the pro tour is generally training for. take Rytis for instance--super fit guy, has been training through winter in el medano, has done several big iQ events already this year, but had to retire halfway through the first reach of the first race because his backfoot was cramping up...
Both he and Ben Proffit had some serious rear leg cramping issues. Was it just the severity of the event or a setup issue?Laufer apparently had the harness lines too far back on port tack as in his video he was shaking out his hand a lot on that side.
