Select to expand quotebjw said..
sir ROWDY said..
Don't worry Cooky, you can always move to Germany, you would fit in well there. 
I reckon Australia is now worse than Germany for being overly regulated now.
At least Kiting is still under the radar with local coucils... for now.
I don't think it is, well at least not where I've been to kite or go to the beach. In Germany at some popular spots you have to pay to even go on the beach, car or not... Hope Australia never gets like that. Most Germans are sticklers for following the rules and obeying the system, I don't think most Aussies are like that.
Obviously not a popular idea, and understandably. Still, I haven't heard any alternatives offered.
Ah, well - hopefully with 650 odd views, hopefully those that need to might think twice before kiting dangerously close to families and other beach-goers.
Kudos to the OP for posting, what I see as a serious issue for all of us to consider.
Want to be licenced - No.
Need to be licenced - arguable.
Is it going to happen down the road - potentially, or at least, likely IMO. On water licence management is obviously an issue for "someone" (DoT or similar) to manage.
Will it address issues of kite competency - probably not for those 'pre-licence'; for those 'post-licence' being introduced, it might set a minimum skill set/competency level.
The issue now, tomorrow, next season for us as individual kiters, a community, our organisations, is to act, behave, kite, in a manner that doesn't give the powers that be, reason, or reasons to think licences are the way forward.
Select to expand quoteCooky said..
Still, I haven't heard any alternatives offered.
The answer Cooky is education not legislation. Cooky if you see something being done dangerously and without care for others, then share some of your experience with the offender there and then. Winging on a forum achieves nothing. If every experienced kiter did this, it would soon stop any individual developing any dangerous habits.
A licence will achieve nothing. An idiot will be an idiot with or without a licence. The only difference would be that they would be licensed idiots.
A licence would just increasing the individuals confidence in himself, but do nothing for his situational awareness of others, which is I think your argument for a licence. Educate not legislate is the answer Cooky
Select to expand quoteCooky said...
Obviously not a popular idea, and understandably. Still, I haven't heard any alternatives offered.
Ah, well - hopefully with 650 odd views, hopefully those that need to might think twice before kiting dangerously close to families and other beach-goers.
Oh puh-lease.
You've heard the alternative. No licensing.
It's not like you've presented any well thought out case for licensing.
Who's gonna be the water cops doing the license checks?
Who's gonna audit the schools to ensure correct instruction?
Which set of teaching standards is going to be used?
How is licensing going to help anyone?
Idiots will be idiots, licenses or not.
You sound like you work in some redtape laden government department.
Or perhaps you have some business idea that would feed off a licensing system, hence your push for it.
In short licensing will give no benefit to anyone or anything, except the licensing system itself.
If someone does the wrong thing on the water, having a license will do nothing, if they're honest, they'll own up to the consequences, if they're the type to do a runner, license or not, they'll do a runner.
So, how does licensing benefit anyone?
Maybe you want to start a business putting license numbers on people's kites.
Select to expand quoteLoftywinds said..Cooky said..
So what should we do about it?
We?
Actually I'll say more...
The "answer" is nothing.
Why? Because like anything in life, you take your own life and circumstances in your own hands. It is YOUR choice, YOUR responsibility.
No insurance, no gaurantees in life. Live free, and take what life dishes out at you.
If we start this licensing b*****, what we are doing is now follow yet another law, another rule in the book, to just make a few paranoid kooks like Cooky able to sleep at night.
I say NO REGULATIONS, NO LICENSING, NO CRAP...
If you want to burn money for the sake of so called "safety" go for it. At the end of the day, accidents do and will happen. So?! THAT"S LIFE!
Select to expand quotekiterboy said..
So, how does licensing benefit anyone?
Maybe you want to start a business putting license numbers on people's kites.
Hear hear!
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..bjw said..
sir ROWDY said..
Don't worry Cooky, you can always move to Germany, you would fit in well there.
I reckon Australia is now worse than Germany for being overly regulated now.
At least Kiting is still under the radar with local coucils... for now.
I don't think it is, well at least not where I've been to kite or go to the beach. In Germany at some popular spots you have to pay to even go on the beach, car or not... Hope Australia never gets like that. Most Germans are sticklers for following the rules and obeying the system, I don't think most Aussies are like that.
True the Germans stick to the rules more than In Australia, but its got a lhigher density of population, 80 million people crammed into a small country, compared to our 20 odd million. But Australia has never been able to shed the "them" and "us" mentality as in cops and convicts, the authorities have regulated us to the finite degree. There is a rule for every thing, its just no one follows the rules that much, maybe the future will bring a change with more people heading to the beach, but right now a licence is not going to make any diffrence
Select to expand quoteLoftywinds said..Cooky said..
So what should we do about it?
We?Select to expand quotejuicerider said..Cooky said..
Still, I haven't heard any alternatives offered.
The answer Cooky is education not legislation. Cooky if you see something being done dangerously and without care for others, then share some of your experience with the offender there and then. Winging on a forum achieves nothing. If every experienced kiter did this, it would soon stop any individual developing any dangerous habits.
A licence will achieve nothing. An idiot will be an idiot with or without a licence. The only difference would be that they would be licensed idiots.
A licence would just increasing the individuals confidence in himself, but do nothing for his situational awareness of others, which is I think your argument for a licence. Educate not legislate is the answer Cooky
This ^!!!!
Actually juiceriders comment could be applied to so many things in life. Education is the key here. The creation of a licencing structure to "permit" people to kite will not make anyone a safer rider. Just look at driving on the road.
Now can someone please post another picture of a cute girl kiteboarding.
Select to expand quoteRicardo1709 said...
I think its a great idea ,we could possibly have waterproof number plates (and the variety of styles could be endless) attached to our chests and even a yellow and green personally activated light at each end of the bar to indicate turning,especially helpful for those that don't know port from starboard and on our backs we have like different coloured P plates to signify our proficiency,sounds great doesn't it
It would have to be different colored K plate......K for kook......
Yes, because driving licenses both prevent crashes and solve road rage.
Umm, what? Select to expand quoteCooky said..
MDSXR6T - True, but aren't you glad that some training and a certain level of proficiency is required to drive a car? I shudder to think how many more crashes, injuries and fatalities would occur if licenses were not required to drive.
You would presumably be familiar with the fact that it is harder to obtain a motorbike license than a driver's license, yes?
I obtained my motorbike license, and then 3 months later, I finally learned how to ride a motorbike. Slow control, using the rear brake during an emergency stop and not pulling over when an invisible fire hydrant is marked on a kerb, were the only three things my license test told me. One of those things was actually potentially dangerously wrong and didn't even have a legal basis.
What I needed was approximately 30 minutes on a race track.
Similarly, when I obtained my driver's license, I passed my test because I spent all of my time looking everywhere except directly in front of me. Mirror, mirror, speedo -- every 10 seconds. Was so much that I half the time forgot to even check my blind spot before changing lanes. Objectively speaking, the safest way to drive is to actually look in front of you, no matter what speed you're doing. Period.
Why do you think the northern territory road toll tripled after they introduced speed limits?
You live in a freaking society where the police claim that driver education doesn't save lives because trained drivers drive faster, and keep a straight face.
And yet you still buy it?
The safest kiters are those that make the most mistakes while learning. They are also the most visible thing scaring beach goers. There's no way to resolve that conflict.
Unless you yourself want to become the ****-police and go to the beach with a hook knife to cut the lines of someone you don't think should be kiting, I don't think you're going to address the fact that people are dicks. (Plus, y'know... that just means you lived long enough to see yourself become the enemy)
SammyJay and juicerider - you both mention education as the answer. I whole-heartedly agree.
How do we ensure kiters have a minimum level of education prior to endangering others?
Licensing is one option. Are there others?
Xanthian - I don't think I need to convince people of the value of driver's licenses. I believe you'd be mad not to see the merit.
The best thing we can do, as somebody mentioned in other words, is act as a group and help the nutters learn the right way.
Dont be a dick. Dont tell them off or try to act like the police.
Just be friendly and offer friendly advice. People are cool with it unless you deliver the message in an uncool way.
We don't need more Council Rangers.
With the amount of kooks who run straight through red and yellow flags everyday im sure something will be done, and id prefer licensing over a complete ban at places like trigg and scabs. I have also seen death looping kites through crowded scaborough beach (why they even pumped up there anazes me). Pilot pete crashing into a sea rescue boat (not sure who is at fault) and as i understand sueing them??? power shut off due to kite in power lines (kiter responsible legged it) death at cott, rescues at sea and plus im sure many other incidents that im not aware of. I think its only a matter of time before something is done To regulate this sport. Especially if an third party is seriously injured
So what you're saying, is despite the fact we have more sharks eating surfers than kite surfers causing injury or death, despite the fact we have more kite surfers than regular surfers, we need to leave the sharks alone but go kitesurfer hunting.
I have no objections to a theoretical driver's license that tests someone's ability. I obtained such a racing license once.
My drivers' license test didn't actually involve emergency stopping, btw. Purely parallel parking, u-turns, and bureaucracy enforcement.
What's more, the licensing system, whilst not teaching you to drive, charges you money every year without requiring you to pass a medical, or get re-tested. Much like vehicle registration, the licensing system proves that you can pay a bill.
Hell, they *even* force you to fill out a fake log book these days, and try to come up with rules like how many passengers can be in a car and what hours the driver is allowed to drive, rather than actually teaching someone to operate a vehicle for fear of them being confident behind the wheel.
No exaggeration. I see no value in drivers' licenses as created. Even the demerit system makes no sense as any real penalty ignores it anyway (hoon laws, drunk driving, drug driving, curfews, etc.), and crashes don't cost any demerits. There's not even a distinction made between endangering onesself and endangering others. (Quite literally, there have been officers telling people to go do that stuff on a country road, where there are other officers hunting for people who aren't endangering anyone else.)
Licensing kite surfing is a recipe to have police go and ping someone who's testing out his kite repairs in alkimos, or has just gotten a foil board, or just doesn't want to wear a helmet and floaty vest.
This **** ends up with cameras being banned ffs. And you're encouraging it.
I think a licence system for over 55's may be beneficial. Also they should have to wear a pink lifesaver type hat similar to the clubbies when they are racing. But I don't think WAKSA should be involved as they have more pressing priorities such as..... ????
Select to expand quoteXanthian said...
Yes, because driving licenses both prevent crashes and solve road rage.
Umm, what? Cooky said..
MDSXR6T - True, but aren't you glad that some training and a certain level of proficiency is required to drive a car? I shudder to think how many more crashes, injuries and fatalities would occur if licenses were not required to drive.
You would presumably be familiar with the fact that it is harder to obtain a motorbike license than a driver's license, yes?
I obtained my motorbike license, and then 3 months later, I finally learned how to ride a motorbike. Slow control, using the rear brake during an emergency stop and not pulling over when an invisible fire hydrant is marked on a kerb, were the only three things my license test told me. One of those things was actually potentially dangerously wrong and didn't even have a legal basis.
What I needed was approximately 30 minutes on a race track.
Similarly, when I obtained my driver's license, I passed my test because I spent all of my time looking everywhere except directly in front of me. Mirror, mirror, speedo -- every 10 seconds. Was so much that I half the time forgot to even check my blind spot before changing lanes. Objectively speaking, the safest way to drive is to actually look in front of you, no matter what speed you're doing. Period.
Why do you think the northern territory road toll tripled after they introduced speed limits?
You live in a freaking society where the police claim that driver education doesn't save lives because trained drivers drive faster, and keep a straight face.
And yet you still buy it?
The safest kiters are those that make the most mistakes while learning. They are also the most visible thing scaring beach goers. There's no way to resolve that conflict.
Unless you yourself want to become the ****-police and go to the beach with a hook knife to cut the lines of someone you don't think should be kiting, I don't think you're going to address the fact that people are dicks. (Plus, y'know... that just means you lived long enough to see yourself become the enemy)
Pretty sure I pitted next to you at a trackday at Barbagello a few years ago., small world. Sorry this should be in the motorbike section.
Will licensing result in less people taking up kitesurfing? Answer is YES. I am all for it. Call me selfish, I don't care, but less idiots who just want to try it with no idea, and less people on the water full stop sounds pretty good to me...... It's a circus most weekends from city to trigg and only going to get a lot worse, it's gotten a lot worse over the last 2 seasons and imagine 5 years from now. Seriously, why would you be against anything that could help slow that down????
For those that are promoting the idea of paying a regular license fee...
Let's keep it simple shall we and jot down the pros and cons, no waffling on, point form only so to keep it clear.
Licensing:
Pros -
- revenue raising (only a pro to those who love paying unecessary bills)
Cons -
- revenue raising
Select to expand quoteCooky said..
SammyJay and juicerider - you both mention education as the answer. I whole-heartedly agree.
How do we ensure kiters have a minimum level of education prior to endangering others?
Licensing is one option. Are there others?
Xanthian - I don't think I need to convince people of the value of driver's licenses. I believe you'd be mad not to see the merit.
Hey Cooky,
a bit of info released here in WA the other day by our esteemed Plodders
over 700 unlicensed drivers have been caught on the roads since the start of the year.
Licensing is not going to stop the aforementioned dicks that are out there.
Something else to contemplate, during this summer's downwinders I had a couple of quiet chats with 2 kiters riding in the flagged zones - both were from overseas and both were completely disinterested in what I was explaining.
Hey Cooky,
In My opinion a licenses are just an over-regulated piece of crap, because they are ther for the masses, not the 5% who are inconsiderate and dont give a toss or have an extremely different view on life. A license actually only provides an insurance option for these sort of people, kind of like giving most of the GST to the worst performing states. Unless theres adequate infrastructure to enforce the rules, a certin % of the population treats it as a joke.
I almost had my first accident the other night, 9:30pm a motorbike weaving in and out of traffic, doing 30km over the speed limit through roadworks on the freeway in WA. No lights, no helmet, no license plates. I got out of the car as he got off at the same off ramp and told him he was a temporary australian. He drove through a red light and carried on. Now in the next budget we have a $90-120 increase for no fault insurance???? Huge trucks use the right lane on both the roe, tonkin, Mitchell, and Kwinana major roads every day.
Cooky you live in WA? Im not being racist, Im being observationist. Have you noticed certain ethnic backgrounds think its fine to do 80km in a 100 km zone in the right lane of the freeway? Guess what, their "license" was transferrable from other countries where they have never been over 60km? Drive around any major roads for 2-8 hours and you will be lucky to see a traffic cop. I have driven in Germany, YES they do follow the rules and have a culture where the Me-Me-Me types get put down.
Same goes with Kitesurfers. 95% of kitesurfers are considerate, sharing, will offer launches etc. It's like asking all Muslims to get a license for being muslim???
Select to expand quotemarno said..
Pretty sure I pitted next to you at a trackday at Barbagello a few years ago., small world. Sorry this should be in the motorbike section.
Good chance you're right. I was back at the track last month, trying to put away enough pennies to make it happen more often.
So here's the thing -- we currently have beaches that are advertised as needing insurance to kite (and a WAKSA membership already contains that insurance). I hope I'm not telling anyone anything new here.
That, right there, is pretty much the only value of a license, and look at how unenforced it is.
What would appear to be the missing link is that while schools have to be accredited, they don't actually graduate their pupils, anywhere in the world. Such accreditation would presumably be valuable to an insurance company, but it just doesn't exist. And it's a nightmare for retroactively having to qualify everyone to kite surf as well.
Solve that one and I'll back you.
Select to expand quoteswinginginthewind said..Cooky said..
SammyJay and juicerider - you both mention education as the answer. I whole-heartedly agree.
How do we ensure kiters have a minimum level of education prior to endangering others?
Licensing is one option. Are there others?
Xanthian - I don't think I need to convince people of the value of driver's licenses. I believe you'd be mad not to see the merit.
Hey Cooky,
a bit of info released here in WA the other day by our esteemed Plodders
over 700 unlicensed drivers have been caught on the roads since the start of the year.
Licensing is not going to stop the aforementioned dicks that are out there.
Something else to contemplate, during this summer's downwinders I had a couple of quiet chats with 2 kiters riding in the flagged zones - both were from overseas and both were completely disinterested in what I was explaining.
Yeah but what about the guy teaching at a restricted beach you had a quiet chat with and he told you its his country and he can do what ever.... bugger off to where you came from....
