Thanks Eppo I am close but can only get say 25% success rate with stink bug. Falling off to leeward rocket shipping up and sinking the nose and shooting the board out behind me lol. Any advice for -13L from body weight board (75L @ 88KG) would be great thanks
Select to expand quoteJY77 said..
Thanks Eppo I am close but can only get say 25% success rate with stink bug. Falling off to leeward rocket shipping up and sinking the nose and shooting the board out behind me lol. Any advice for -13L from body weight board (75L @ 88KG) would be great thanks
Put weight on that front hand and handle,board will sink a bit but you cannot sink the boom so it is a very solid balance point.
My position is more like a lying down sniper. Front elbow with hand holding front flying handle, with elbow in front of front footstrap back leg/knee lying across back of board with front leg dangling in water and chest on board. Grab back flying handle with head under the wing, pull in and wing lifts u straight up onto yhe board. Easy start, I use on my 85 and 65L boards. Mike
Select to expand quoteMikedubs said..
My position is more like a lying down sniper. Front elbow with hand holding front flying handle, with elbow in front of front footstrap back leg/knee lying across back of board with front leg dangling in water and chest on board. Grab back flying handle with head under the wing, pull in and wing lifts u straight up onto yhe board. Easy start, I use on my 85 and 65L boards. Mike
That is something i must try.Thx!.
Select to expand quoteJY77 said..
Thanks Eppo I am close but can only get say 25% success rate with stink bug. Falling off to leeward rocket shipping up and sinking the nose and shooting the board out behind me lol. Any advice for -13L from body weight board (75L @ 88KG) would be great thanks
What board do you have ? Length ? Take note of what MCRT said above as well.
also next no wind day. paddle out with board and wing and practise just getting into position and holding it. That way you don't waste your wind sessions.
it takes some muscle memory to find the find that pivot point where you don't fall forward nor backwards and board shoots up - but once you have it you can adjust on the fly.
i learnt on a 34L board at 75kg , it takes a bit. Keep at it.
also I start straddling the board like waiting for a wave on a normal surfboard.
Thumb in front handle, fingers grab nose of board and other hand also on front of board.
. and the big TIP.. I lay both forarms longditunally down board so knees just touch them to Stabilised board.
then grab back handle and do what MCRT said above to stabilise everything. Could stay there all day if I was so inclined.
then it's literally 1,2,3. Knees, lift, go - if wind is good. Sometimes I will need to sit like a surfer waiting for a wave (but In this case wind). I can get going as quick or even quicker than floater board dudes if wind is suitable because a smaller board means less board surface to release and much easier to pump up.
oh and when you lift wing - gotta use your core a bit to help direct board up and out of water and slightly downwind. That to is a muscle memory thing and takes sometime to learn especially when in big swell.
Select to expand quoteMikedubs said..
My position is more like a lying down sniper. Front elbow with hand holding front flying handle, with elbow in front of front footstrap back leg/knee lying across back of board with front leg dangling in water and chest on board. Grab back flying handle with head under the wing, pull in and wing lifts u straight up onto yhe board. Easy start, I use on my 85 and 65L boards. Mike
The Sniper! I like it! Or the spider start. The Stink Bug still sounds so...
. Maybe too late to change the name. Such a great technique though.
I think the sniper would work when one has enough wind and enough wing size. I've tried it before it does work. But I'm using the same wing sizes as everyone on big floaters and it seems to work the best when hunting for wind.
Select to expand quoteWindoc said..
I use this way to start all the time. So much faster than any other I've seen, though I'm open to better ways! Game changer once you get it dialled for fast restarts between swell/waves.
I was thinking this would be really tough in a choppy bay swell (where I sail pretty much every day).
Select to expand quotemcrt said..JY77 said..
Thanks Eppo I am close but can only get say 25% success rate with stink bug. Falling off to leeward rocket shipping up and sinking the nose and shooting the board out behind me lol. Any advice for -13L from body weight board (75L @ 88KG) would be great thanks
Put weight on that front hand and handle,board will sink a bit but you cannot sink the boom so it is a very solid balance point.
yeah when I put weight on my front hand the nose of the board sinks under the wing i guess you have to put your weight down on the wing not the board
my board is a 75L sky wing 5.0 Foot
Select to expand quoteeppo said..JY77 said..
Thanks Eppo I am close but can only get say 25% success rate with stink bug. Falling off to leeward rocket shipping up and sinking the nose and shooting the board out behind me lol. Any advice for -13L from body weight board (75L @ 88KG) would be great thanks
What board do you have ? Length ? Take note of what MCRT said above as well.
also next no wind day. paddle out with board and wing and practise just getting into position and holding it. That way you don't waste your wind sessions.
it takes some muscle memory to find the find that pivot point where you don't fall forward nor backwards and board shoots up - but once you have it you can adjust on the fly.
i learnt on a 34L board at 75kg , it takes a bit. Keep at it.
also I start straddling the board like waiting for a wave on a normal surfboard.
Thumb in front handle, fingers grab nose of board and other hand also on front of board.
. and the big TIP.. I lay both forarms longditunally down board so knees just touch them to Stabilised board.
then grab back handle and do what MCRT said above to stabilise everything. Could stay there all day if I was so inclined.
then it's literally 1,2,3. Knees, lift, go - if wind is good. Sometimes I will need to sit like a surfer waiting for a wave (but In this case wind). I can get going as quick or even quicker than floater board dudes if wind is suitable because a smaller board means less board surface to release and much easier to pump up.
oh and when you lift wing - gotta use your core a bit to help direct board up and out of water and slightly downwind. That to is a muscle memory thing and takes sometime to learn especially when in big swell.
Thanks Eppo and MCRT will try it some more sounds like knees and elbows have to be overlapped and forward weight pushing or pulling down on wing to get to knees. most of my fails is due to board skewing and falling to leeward or sinking the nose and going over the handle bars. So you rest in the sniper position waiting for a gust not on your knees is that what you are saying and then pull the trigger 1 knees 2 lift wing 3 stand up all in quick succession
Select to expand quoteMikedubs said..
My position is more like a lying down sniper. Front elbow with hand holding front flying handle, with elbow in front of front footstrap back leg/knee lying across back of board with front leg dangling in water and chest on board. Grab back flying handle with head under the wing, pull in and wing lifts u straight up onto yhe board. Easy start, I use on my 85 and 65L boards. Mike
will try this next time do you push the boom down onto the front of the board or hold the wing up with your elbow on the board and forearm perpendicular to the board
Yeah forearm perpendicular, wing flying, back lower leg across the board. Lie chest on board, grab back flying handle pull in let front hand rise to catch wind and it'll pull u up onto ur knees or straight up onto ur front foot. You can also shove the downwind wing tip/ end of strut into the water to lever yourself up if winds lighter. It's a quick way to get up, especially in waves, I don't think I've climbed onto my knees and done an old fashioned start for 6 months. You will need to play around with your front elbow placement and back leg/knee across the back to find your boards balance points, then you'll be fine. A trick is to evenly apply your weight across elbow and back leg so you don't end up nose up or nose down.
Mike
Select to expand quoteJY77 said..eppo said..JY77 said..
Thanks Eppo I am close but can only get say 25% success rate with stink bug. Falling off to leeward rocket shipping up and sinking the nose and shooting the board out behind me lol. Any advice for -13L from body weight board (75L @ 88KG) would be great thanks
What board do you have ? Length ? Take note of what MCRT said above as well.
also next no wind day. paddle out with board and wing and practise just getting into position and holding it. That way you don't waste your wind sessions.
it takes some muscle memory to find the find that pivot point where you don't fall forward nor backwards and board shoots up - but once you have it you can adjust on the fly.
i learnt on a 34L board at 75kg , it takes a bit. Keep at it.
also I start straddling the board like waiting for a wave on a normal surfboard.
Thumb in front handle, fingers grab nose of board and other hand also on front of board.
. and the big TIP.. I lay both forarms longditunally down board so knees just touch them to Stabilised board.
then grab back handle and do what MCRT said above to stabilise everything. Could stay there all day if I was so inclined.
then it's literally 1,2,3. Knees, lift, go - if wind is good. Sometimes I will need to sit like a surfer waiting for a wave (but In this case wind). I can get going as quick or even quicker than floater board dudes if wind is suitable because a smaller board means less board surface to release and much easier to pump up.
oh and when you lift wing - gotta use your core a bit to help direct board up and out of water and slightly downwind. That to is a muscle memory thing and takes sometime to learn especially when in big swell.
Thanks Eppo and MCRT will try it some more sounds like knees and elbows have to be overlapped and forward weight pushing or pulling down on wing to get to knees. most of my fails is due to board skewing and falling to leeward or sinking the nose and going over the handle bars. So you rest in the sniper position waiting for a gust not on your knees is that what you are saying and then pull the trigger 1 knees 2 lift wing 3 stand up all in quick succession
Nah. I'm pushing down with my hands (on nose of board) and those forearms to get to knees. It's mainly the forearms pushing down really. But then again you aren't using a true sinker so maybe it's harder in this sense.
Then I grab the back handle and THEN I push down on the wing to lock it all in place.
I suppose the wings strut is inadvertently pushing down when getting to knees but not as much as when I've got both hands on the handles.
got myself a 60L FG today will see how that goes. Looks a nice compact size actually. Could be slightly thinner but hey.
might fine that sniper style above another go. Will report back. Minh work better on a semi sinker. Can't see it working that well on a true sinker if the wind isn't strong enough to rip you up. Kinda have to already on your knees I feel.
Select to expand quoteMikedubs said..
Yeah forearm perpendicular, wing flying, back lower leg across the board. Lie chest on board, grab back flying handle pull in let front hand rise to catch wind and it'll pull u up onto ur knees or straight up onto ur front foot. You can also shove the downwind wing tip/ end of strut into the water to lever yourself up if winds lighter. It's a quick way to get up, especially in waves, I don't think I've climbed onto my knees and done an old fashioned start for 6 months. You will need to play around with your front elbow placement and back leg/knee across the back to find your boards balance points, then you'll be fine. A trick is to evenly apply your weight across elbow and back leg so you don't end up nose up or nose down.
Mike
Thanks will definitely give the sniper a go this week My wife will appreciate it too, I thing she is getting sick of me practicing the Stink Bug on her lol.
Just to get this Sniper clear in my mind. Your back leg knee is bent at around 90 deg hanging over the leeward side of the board and your back foot is in the middle of the board near the back foot strap with the arch of your foot against the board. Your front leg is just off to the windward side of the board dangling backwards to the tail. Then as you lift the wing you have to slide your front knee up to the front foot strap on the windward side then stand up.
I think there's way less stress on the body and particularly the elbows (and wetsuit) if you sit on the board like a prone surfer. Then tuck your head under the wing and complete the sequence of stink bug from there. For me its slightly quicker than traditional stink bug and it avoids trying to crawl on the board under the wing which feels odd.
Select to expand quoteIanInca said..
I think there's way less stress on the body and particularly the elbows (and wetsuit) if you sit on the board like a prone surfer. Then tuck your head under the wing and complete the sequence of stink bug from there. For me its slightly quicker than traditional stink bug and it avoids trying to crawl on the board under the wing which feels odd.
I actually did this by chance today on the 85l, i was paddling prone and it just felt natural to go to sitting and then straight into the Stinkbug.Felt good.
Have to try it on the sinker.
Yeh it's how I roll. Sometimes I just stop for a bit a watch crew doing stuff around me. Kinda relaxing.
So, fwiw I have adapted the stinkbug to a technique I'm calling the zen stinkbug, but the 'zen sniper' is maybe a better title!
I had a lot of difficulty with the pitching you've described JY77, I'm on a 4'7" board and in swell I found I was either going over the front or sliding off the back as the board went vertical in either direction. It was super tiring and lots of attempts to get to a starting position.
My approach is (can start from sitting or lying)
- both hands on front of board with leading hand holding the wing
- knees are either side of the board so my thighs are on the edges of the board and my knees are over the side (think of lying down straight from a seated surfer position without moving your legs)
- my feet come up to the back of the board so the soles of my feet are touching on the back of the board with my inside ankles on the board, my big toes are just hanging off the end of the board
The secret sauce is your feet in this position automatically centres you perfectly on the board weight-wise, and it doesn't rely on 'getting a feel for the right position'.
From here, you now have two hands on the front of the board to help stabilise you fore and aft, your body is just as low as lying down, and your legs are acting as wings to stabilise you left and right. This position you can maintain literally all day, its more stable than lying on the board.
Then follow the techniques above - leading hand comes up with elbow or press off the wing tip, let it rotate you around and then push off board with back hand to grab the wing. you can time this last bit with the swell. you can also balance the wing on your head or shoulder if you find that more comfortable depending on the wing size and where it sits for you - i find this works in light wind to let the wing fill before I try and get to my knees to pump the wing. I also find it better to keep my head down and push my ass back (another yoga move as I transfer my hand, keeps the weight down low until i get the power in the sail.
I have had two sessions on a semi-floater board (-5L) dropping down from +20L. I am a very recent winger and can nail this every time even in sloppy medium-sized swell after 2 hrs when i'm exhausted.
Downsides - it does require a bit of hip flexibility and if you have a wider board it may not work as well, but it was a gamechanger for me. Just being able to lie in a relaxed stable position in swell without burning your core and stabiliser muscles means that whatever way you get up from there you're not burning all your energy before you commit to getting to your feet.
Yeh right. So knees are in water, pressed against sides of board but with feet scooped up onto back of board - big toe hanging off. Interesting. Will give it a crack. Although my muscle memory allows the knee position fine - in big swell - yeh it gets tested.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Yeh right. So knees are in water, pressed against sides of board but with feet scooped up onto back of board - big toe hanging off. Interesting. Will give it a crack. Although my muscle memory allows the knee position fine - in big swell - yeh it gets tested.
Hardest is with no wind 
Did some floating the other day
Select to expand quotehilly said..eppo said..
Yeh right. So knees are in water, pressed against sides of board but with feet scooped up onto back of board - big toe hanging off. Interesting. Will give it a crack. Although my muscle memory allows the knee position fine - in big swell - yeh it gets tested.
Hardest is with no wind Did some floating the other day
Yeh done my fair share of paddling in 
but you go out in some nutto' wind directions.
Not to hijack the stinkbug, or sniper, or zen, or whatever method thread, but I just got a new 60L (4'9 Appletree) board and found myself using the following method:
(1) Get front foot in front strap, back leg stays kneeled with shin on the board.
(2) Wing is floating on the water and both hands are on the leading edge for stability, can stay in this position forever.
(3) Front hand goes under the leading edge and grabs front handle (not leading edge handle)
(4) Bring wing overhead and grab back handle, power up
(5) Stand up on your back foot and go
Before I had this board, I was using a 90L 5'4 Quatro most of the times. But when nuking I was using my 35L prone board (with straps) for which I used a squat sinker start (sinking it with feet in straps).
So the method I now used on my first session on the 60L is essentially a "half sinker squat" as instead of having both feet in the straps when the board is sunk, I only have my front foot in the strap. But otherwise, the movement of bringing the wing overhead and powering up, is the same as the squat sinker.
Anyone else doing this or something similar?
I found the "normal" stinkbug harder, with smaller success rate, as going on forward on my knees with the wing powered up didn't feel very balanced. This method has the advantage that once you have the wing overhead, your front foot is already in the right position.
More wind tomorrow and day after, so I will keep experimenting.
I'm 78kg dry, using a wetsuit so + a few kg's.
It would be nice to hear what everyone has settled upon when it comes to sizing a smaller board that is easily started without using bigger wings than were used on their neutral volume size boards.
From the reply's it seemed about -25% in volume under your weight in Kgs or very roughly -15 to -20 litres allows some sort of knee starting to be done consistently enough.
I am looking at ordering a smaller replacement for my 69l board at 65kgs. Wave riding and down winging are the priorities.
I am 68 kgs plus wetsuit and recently had good results with my 38 L prone board using the following stink method:
- Lie across the board and grab the front power handle (bring wing over your head so strut is beside your head and leading edge behind it).
- With front hand (and handle) on nose of board and rear hand on board rail, get on knees. I have my knees staggered and roughly in position where my feet end up. Feet are dangling off edge of board.
- Grab rear handle and if necessary push strut onto the water for stability while still on knees. Wait for a good gust if conditions are variable.
- Lift wing into wind; once powered the board comes right up. Stand on front foot, back foot and off you go.
I was quite amazed by how easy it was as long as you have adequate power. I was not overpowered and used the same wing I was using for my 75 L board. Frankly if you have to go to a bigger wing to use a smaller board it negates the whole point of it.
Stink bug method has transformed my starts in all conditions. It's way more efficient than pushing down on leading edge and getting to your knees THEN grabbing the power handle IMO.
Select to expand quotegreg87foil said..
Not to hijack the stinkbug, or sniper, or zen, or whatever method thread, but I just got a new 60L (4'9 Appletree) board and found myself using the following method:
(1) Get front foot in front strap, back leg stays kneeled with shin on the board.
(2) Wing is floating on the water and both hands are on the leading edge for stability, can stay in this position forever.
(3) Front hand goes under the leading edge and grabs front handle (not leading edge handle)
(4) Bring wing overhead and grab back handle, power up
(5) Stand up on your back foot and go
Before I had this board, I was using a 90L 5'4 Quatro most of the times. But when nuking I was using my 35L prone board (with straps) for which I used a squat sinker start (sinking it with feet in straps).
So the method I now used on my first session on the 60L is essentially a "half sinker squat" as instead of having both feet in the straps when the board is sunk, I only have my front foot in the strap. But otherwise, the movement of bringing the wing overhead and powering up, is the same as the squat sinker.
Anyone else doing this or something similar?
I found the "normal" stinkbug harder, with smaller success rate, as going on forward on my knees with the wing powered up didn't feel very balanced. This method has the advantage that once you have the wing overhead, your front foot is already in the right position.
More wind tomorrow and day after, so I will keep experimenting.
I'm 78kg dry, using a wetsuit so + a few kg's.
I consider this a pretty conventional start and its what I do a lot of the time. Works great until the board gets small, or the chop gets big. The point of stinkbug/sniper or any of the other methods is to minimize the point of instability when you have an elevated center of gravity without both hands on a stabilized (semi powered) wing. That unstable point falls during step #4 of your description.
I'm mostly doing it like in the first video, though I have had a few frustrated words with myself out on the water, coming from a surf background I thought I'd have no trouble adjusting to a small foil board but it did take 2 short sessions to get up consistently, having a good gust helps and getting a clean snap with the front foot on the board was key for me
Select to expand quoteCH3MTR4IL5 said..
So, fwiw I have adapted the stinkbug to a technique I'm calling the zen stinkbug, but the 'zen sniper' is maybe a better title!
I had a lot of difficulty with the pitching you've described JY77, I'm on a 4'7" board and in swell I found I was either going over the front or sliding off the back as the board went vertical in either direction. It was super tiring and lots of attempts to get to a starting position.
My approach is (can start from sitting or lying)
- both hands on front of board with leading hand holding the wing
- knees are either side of the board so my thighs are on the edges of the board and my knees are over the side (think of lying down straight from a seated surfer position without moving your legs)
- my feet come up to the back of the board so the soles of my feet are touching on the back of the board with my inside ankles on the board, my big toes are just hanging off the end of the board
The secret sauce is your feet in this position automatically centres you perfectly on the board weight-wise, and it doesn't rely on 'getting a feel for the right position'.
From here, you now have two hands on the front of the board to help stabilise you fore and aft, your body is just as low as lying down, and your legs are acting as wings to stabilise you left and right. This position you can maintain literally all day, its more stable than lying on the board.
Then follow the techniques above - leading hand comes up with elbow or press off the wing tip, let it rotate you around and then push off board with back hand to grab the wing. you can time this last bit with the swell. you can also balance the wing on your head or shoulder if you find that more comfortable depending on the wing size and where it sits for you - i find this works in light wind to let the wing fill before I try and get to my knees to pump the wing. I also find it better to keep my head down and push my ass back (another yoga move as I transfer my hand, keeps the weight down low until i get the power in the sail.
I have had two sessions on a semi-floater board (-5L) dropping down from +20L. I am a very recent winger and can nail this every time even in sloppy medium-sized swell after 2 hrs when i'm exhausted.
Downsides - it does require a bit of hip flexibility and if you have a wider board it may not work as well, but it was a gamechanger for me. Just being able to lie in a relaxed stable position in swell without burning your core and stabiliser muscles means that whatever way you get up from there you're not burning all your energy before you commit to getting to your feet.
Ok I haven't tried your zen technique or the mikedubs sniper sequence but have used the traditional stinkbug with Great Success on inland lakes with light to moderate wind. Btw, I'm 6'6", 98kg using a 95L board.
However, the last couple of days I was wing foiling around Hood River in the Columbia Gorge with an average wind speed of 35 mph, gusts to 50+ and swell 6-10' on the river. I can tell you my stinkbug technique completely FAILED and I had a miserable downwinder.
Problems: 1. could not adequately stabilize the board being perpendicular to the wind and up to 10' swell; 2. while attempting to get to my knees, my 3m wing would constantly flip over on its back in the high winds. My upper back would lift 1/2 of the wing up and that was enough unbalance to flip the wing (smaller wing lacked the ability to use the over side of the wing to pivot) and makes the whole sequence completely worthless.
The only technique that gave me very marginal success was pointing the nose of the board downwind, wing downwind in front of me, go quickly from sitting or lying on board to kneeing while using the wing's leading edge as balance, saying a little pray or swearing whichever and then quickly lift the wing up, hoping you don't get a 50+ wind gust and go.
I haven't tried the sniper technique, but it would seem to me that in those conditions, the complex dynamic movement of lifting the wing up into the wind with both hands and simultaneously bringing the front leg on to the board in a kneeing or foot position is just not going to be successful with unpredictable gusts of wind.
Would like to hear any advice, techniques that would be useful in high winds, big swell, small wing conditions. Is there a way to modify the sequence that would give a higher success rate? I know, more time on the water, but I really don't think it's possible for me to start the sequence with the board being perpendicular to the swell and wind.
-3 is too unstable in serious chop, you'd be better off with less volume. And with the board and legs submerged, besides being more stable, it's easier to tuck the head under the wing for the stink bug.
