In winging, making small sails was something that only a few companies could pull off well. I assume that was a similar issue on the upper end with large sails that I never used here in the Gorge.
For parawings, I don't expect any single model to be awesome from 2-6m. I expect some companies might make excellent small sails while their larger sizes slip, or vice versa.
On the small end of things I'll throw out that I think the 2.4m Pocket Rocket is an absolute gem. Perfect in nearly every way. If I were to buy a 4 or 5 though, are there any standout brands/models for the larger sizes?
I always go for a quiver of the same wings so the feel is similar from one to the next.
I tried that but was forced to mix things up around the 2m mark on wings.
In my situation the use case will be very different. Anything larger than a 3m will always be deployed, like a kite. So, the performance attributes needed from a 100% powered riding model vs something I can pack and redeploy will be different.
hoping the 4.7 Frigate's the low end beast we're looking for B!
Two sessions on a borrowed 5.0 pocket rocket was hard work.
Guessing F-one taking so long to release the larger size is the work involved in finding that unicorn balance of stable lift in light winds while remaining nimble and fun riding powered.
If they can extend the low end get-up a couple of knots over the 4.0 Frigate, without dramatic tradeoffs, it'll replace my daily driver Armie 4.5 wing, which on my 85L carver and big foil happily covers 10 to 25 knots.
Happy to sacrifice some stashability, am fine with just holding a wadded trashbag doing ocean upwind downwinders. Only need to do full stash for paddle out/in. The no pump/setup of a parawing'll be a huge win foiling from a small boat.
Select to expand quoteflowstate said..
hoping the 4.7 Frigate's the low end beast we're looking for B!
Two sessions on a borrowed 5.0 pocket rocket was hard work.
Guessing F-one taking so long to release the larger size is the work involved in finding that unicorn balance of stable lift in light winds while remaining nimble and fun riding powered.
If they can extend the low end get-up a couple of knots over the 4.0 Frigate, without dramatic tradeoffs, it'll replace my daily driver Armie 4.5 wing, which on my 85L carver and big foil happily covers 10 to 25 knots.
Happy to sacrifice some stashability, am fine with just holding a wadded trashbag doing ocean upwind downwinders. Only need to do full stash for paddle out/in. The no pump/setup of a parawing'll be a huge win foiling from a small boat.
I am waiting on a 2.5/3.5/4.7 Frigate quiver and the wings will go.
I have the 2.4, 3 and 3.6 pocket rockets and which ever i have flown last is my favorite. They are all amazing in their own way.
For those expecting more bottom end i will say this. under 13 knots it won't matter what size you use it just becomes impractical in my experience. 3m is easy from 15 knots but the 3.6 only gives me at best 2 more knots on the bottom. The law of diminishing returns under 15 knots.
Select to expand quoteflowstate said..
hoping the 4.7 Frigate's the low end beast we're looking for B!
Two sessions on a borrowed 5.0 pocket rocket was hard work.
Guessing F-one taking so long to release the larger size is the work involved in finding that unicorn balance of stable lift in light winds while remaining nimble and fun riding powered.
If they can extend the low end get-up a couple of knots over the 4.0 Frigate, without dramatic tradeoffs, it'll replace my daily driver Armie 4.5 wing, which on my 85L carver and big foil happily covers 10 to 25 knots.
Happy to sacrifice some stashability, am fine with just holding a wadded trashbag doing ocean upwind downwinders. Only need to do full stash for paddle out/in. The no pump/setup of a parawing'll be a huge win foiling from a small boat.
How low are you getting on the 4m Frigate? Oddly enough an F-One rider told me he thought the Pocket Rockets had better low end? I thought that was really surprising. What didn't you like about the 5m?Select to expand quoteAnyBoard said..
I have the 2.4, 3 and 3.6 pocket rockets and which ever i have flown last is my favorite. They are all amazing in their own way.
For those expecting more bottom end i will say this. under 13 knots it won't matter what size you use it just becomes impractical in my experience. 3m is easy from 15 knots but the 3.6 only gives me at best 2 more knots on the bottom. The law of diminishing returns under 15 knots.
I'm always blown away when people report that low on their 3m PR. There's gotta be some technique I'm missing, or the gear is wrong. Or, the local conditions don't match. If it's not averaging 20+ knots I wouldn't ever consider my 3m. I'm on a pretty neutral buoyancy board and a 1050 foil at that point.Select to expand quotehilly said..
I am waiting on a 2.5/3.5/4.7 Frigate quiver and the wings will go.
I'm down to 2-3m wings with a 2.4m and 3m PR. Saying goodbye to my 4m and 5m wings wasn't hard but I do need a replacement...
Are Ozone PR riders finding they have the range where they can get away with skipping a size to begin to build a quiver? I have a 3.0 on the way and wondering if I can get away with a 3.0 an 4.3 ?
Select to expand quoteHoloholo said..
Are Ozone PR riders finding they have the range where they can get away with skipping a size to begin to build a quiver? I have a 3.0 on the way and wondering if I can get away with a 3.0 an 4.3 ?
In the Gorge that's the most common quiver I've been seeing.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..flowstate said..
hoping the 4.7 Frigate's the low end beast we're looking for B!
Two sessions on a borrowed 5.0 pocket rocket was hard work.
Guessing F-one taking so long to release the larger size is the work involved in finding that unicorn balance of stable lift in light winds while remaining nimble and fun riding powered.
If they can extend the low end get-up a couple of knots over the 4.0 Frigate, without dramatic tradeoffs, it'll replace my daily driver Armie 4.5 wing, which on my 85L carver and big foil happily covers 10 to 25 knots.
Happy to sacrifice some stashability, am fine with just holding a wadded trashbag doing ocean upwind downwinders. Only need to do full stash for paddle out/in. The no pump/setup of a parawing'll be a huge win foiling from a small boat.
How low are you getting on the 4m Frigate? Oddly enough an F-One rider told me he thought the Pocket Rockets had better low end? I thought that was really surprising. What didn't you like about the 5m?AnyBoard said..
I have the 2.4, 3 and 3.6 pocket rockets and which ever i have flown last is my favorite. They are all amazing in their own way.
For those expecting more bottom end i will say this. under 13 knots it won't matter what size you use it just becomes impractical in my experience. 3m is easy from 15 knots but the 3.6 only gives me at best 2 more knots on the bottom. The law of diminishing returns under 15 knots.
I'm always blown away when people report that low on their 3m PR. There's gotta be some technique I'm missing, or the gear is wrong. Or, the local conditions don't match. If it's not averaging 20+ knots I wouldn't ever consider my 3m. I'm on a pretty neutral buoyancy board and a 1050 foil at that point.hilly said..
I am waiting on a 2.5/3.5/4.7 Frigate quiver and the wings will go.
I'm down to 2-3m wings with a 2.4m and 3m PR. Saying goodbye to my 4m and 5m wings wasn't hard but I do need a replacement...
Only couple of laps on a tourists 4.0 Frigate in 8-14 knots, so obvs not enough time or wind to explore its full potential, but loved how it flew once on foil, even in my rookie hands. loved the depower/grab. Prob a bit of grass-is-always-greener in waiting for 4.7 frigate, but I can only afford one, and too lazy to relinquish the Armie wing on light wind rough water days for a 4.0 Frigate just yet ??
Select to expand quoteAnyBoard said..
I have the 2.4, 3 and 3.6 pocket rockets and which ever i have flown last is my favorite. They are all amazing in their own way.
For those expecting more bottom end i will say this. under 13 knots it won't matter what size you use it just becomes impractical in my experience. 3m is easy from 15 knots but the 3.6 only gives me at best 2 more knots on the bottom. The law of diminishing returns under 15 knots.
I do get the diminishing returns parawing thing, but with so many good riders and designers obsessed with parawing development, magic might happen for those of us who jus wanna parawing all the time but dont have gorge or maui or capverde wind ;)
Havent been able to try big BRMs, just accepting what i read on forums and YT, found the big Pocket rocket a real handful in rough water light wind, those lines are looong, didnt behave anywhere near as nice as the 4m frigate. The 4.7 frigate may be same story, too big too cumbersome in the rough stuff, but hoping for some magic!
I've flown every size of the PR except the 1.9 (I'm a chunky boy), and I love every size. I don't feel the need to change brands based on sizes.
If you're just using it for downwinding and stowing - you can probably skip sizes. You could also probably skip sizes for upwind/downwinders if you're more advanced and have experience blasting at high speeds hooked in - or milking wind range through lulls.
If you want to goon about sailing and do maneuvers, I'd say you shouldn't skip sizes in the quiver. Tacks, downloops, handlepasses, surfing while powered etc - it's harder to do when you're outside the range 
I love my 4m Frigate, it's just insane how much better it is than the Flow D-wing that I owned previously. Turned parawinging from a bitter misery to pure passion. Now I spend all my time upwind-downwinding instead of struggling and it really races upwind! Both bottom and especially high end is so much better, my dealer says he thinks it has a bigger range than F one wings. Jibing is extremely easy. The line length is max for what is comfortable in one reach for my 176 cm. The 4,7m lines were just slightly to long for me, but I think it would be a really good big parawing for someone just slightly taller. Tried the Ozone PR 4,3 and those lines were way too long for me in one reach. I would think a smaller PR might complement a bigger Frigate if you want to save some money or really want the slightly better upwind angle. Although the Frigate canopy is light it doesn't packs as well as the best in class, that's my only complaint. That tradeoff is well worth it for the overall performance and user friendliness for me though. Looking forward to getting my 3m!
I've got a 4.3PR & hoping that a new big PW will be released at awsi to replace my 6m CWC wing for those light wind days. It's not even really about line length or being able to pack it away but more about just flying it constantly& not having a huge wing in my face spoiling the view on those amazing sunny days.
Select to expand quoteJve said..
I love my 4m Frigate, it's just insane how much better it is than the Flow D-wing that I owned previously. Turned parawinging from a bitter misery to pure passion. Now I spend all my time upwind-downwinding instead of struggling and it really races upwind! Both bottom and especially high end is so much better, my dealer says he thinks it has a bigger range than F one wings. Jibing is extremely easy. The line length is max for what is comfortable in one reach for my 176 cm. The 4,7m lines were just slightly to long for me, but I think it would be a really good big parawing for someone just slightly taller. Tried the Ozone PR 4,3 and those lines were way too long for me in one reach. I would think a smaller PR might complement a bigger Frigate if you want to save some money or really want the slightly better upwind angle. Although the Frigate canopy is light it doesn't packs as well as the best in class, that's my only complaint. That tradeoff is well worth it for the overall performance and user friendliness for me though. Looking forward to getting my 3m!
what weight are you, and what board you using with the 4m frigate Jve?
Thinking that grab handle arrangement midway up the lines will make collapsing longer-lined bigger parawings much more doable out in the rough stuff.
going to be interesting to see Armie's take on the parawing, given their user-friendly, mass-market appeal. see what sort of low-end drive they can cook up in bigger sizes.
Select to expand quoteJve said..
The 4,7m lines were just slightly to long for me, but I think it would be a really good big parawing for someone just slightly taller.
so there ARE 4.7m Frigates out there in the wild? anyone else tried one on a non-sinker board?
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..Holoholo said..
Are Ozone PR riders finding they have the range where they can get away with skipping a size to begin to build a quiver? I have a 3.0 on the way and wondering if I can get away with a 3.0 an 4.3 ?
In the Gorge that's the most common quiver I've been seeing.
Thanks BW- that's helpful. Winter is creeping in with lighter wind and waves coming soon. Only so many $ in the budget. Think I'll start with a 4.3 and see how it works. I know from my demo of the PR 3.0 I can get away with over 35 gusts, just don't know what my bottom end is going to be with it.
Select to expand quoteAnyBoard said..
I have the 2.4, 3 and 3.6 pocket rockets and which ever i have flown last is my favorite. They are all amazing in their own way.
For those expecting more bottom end i will say this. under 13 knots it won't matter what size you use it just becomes impractical in my experience. 3m is easy from 15 knots but the 3.6 only gives me at best 2 more knots on the bottom. The law of diminishing returns under 15 knots.
I'm always blown away when people report that low on their 3m PR. There's gotta be some technique I'm missing, or the gear is wrong. Or, the local conditions don't match. If it's not averaging 20+ knots I wouldn't ever consider my 3m. I'm on a pretty neutral buoyancy board and a 1050 foil at that point.
A few comments.
I weigh 65kg and ride a 75l Armstrong ML. The extra 10l and 4" up from the 65l makes more difference in using the bumps than you would expect. A 3 for me should be a 3.6 for you in the same wind range.
15 knots means I will be riding an Eagle X 900 for the glide in the mediocre ocean bumps. I don't think riding lower aspect foils is a good idea in light wind. I also noticed Jack ho was riding an eagle x 700 in really good gorge conditions so it will be interesting to see how the foil selections eventually play out for PW but my money is still on a 12 or 13 aspect foil, just smaller versions if the conditions are really good.
I get up using the bumps the same way I do with a paddle and lots of leg pumping technique. I am getting better and better at this all the time. I am very happy that all that DW paddle practice is not wasted.
I feel with this technique I can get up in wind that is not strong enough to stay on foil without pumping. 3.6 will keep me going in 13 knots but a 3 could get me up on foil with patience but not fun waiting for the exact bump and wind.
Select to expand quoteAnyBoard said..AnyBoard said..
I have the 2.4, 3 and 3.6 pocket rockets and which ever i have flown last is my favorite. They are all amazing in their own way.
For those expecting more bottom end i will say this. under 13 knots it won't matter what size you use it just becomes impractical in my experience. 3m is easy from 15 knots but the 3.6 only gives me at best 2 more knots on the bottom. The law of diminishing returns under 15 knots.
I'm always blown away when people report that low on their 3m PR. There's gotta be some technique I'm missing, or the gear is wrong. Or, the local conditions don't match. If it's not averaging 20+ knots I wouldn't ever consider my 3m. I'm on a pretty neutral buoyancy board and a 1050 foil at that point.
A few comments.
I weigh 65kg and ride a 75l Armstrong ML. The extra 10l and 4" up from the 65l makes more difference in using the bumps than you would expect. A 3 for me should be a 3.6 for you in the same wind range.
15 knots means I will be riding an Eagle X 900 for the glide in the mediocre ocean bumps. I don't think riding lower aspect foils is a good idea in light wind. I also noticed Jack ho was riding an eagle x 700 in really good gorge conditions so it will be interesting to see how the foil selections eventually play out for PW but my money is still on a 12 or 13 aspect foil, just smaller versions if the conditions are really good.
I get up using the bumps the same way I do with a paddle and lots of leg pumping technique. I am getting better and better at this all the time. I am very happy that all that DW paddle practice is not wasted.
I feel with this technique I can get up in wind that is not strong enough to stay on foil without pumping. 3.6 will keep me going in 13 knots but a 3 could get me up on foil with patience but not fun waiting for the exact bump and wind.
Solid breakdown thanks for sharing the details on that! I've run into Jacks crew a few times on his strike missions this summer and was on the Enduro 700 AR11 for at least one of those days. Here in the Gorge though, you can get away with MA foils on the good days. I'm really trying to get myself sorted on the Silk 650 for when it's pumping. The super HA foils are so easy to link on in the Gorge it's basically cheating. Ocean, of course, is such a different beast.
100% agree, I'm glad paddle practice wasn't a waste of time. I'm betting the ocean bumps would make my low end better using this technique vs the Gorge where 15 knots commonly means flat, lake like conditions.
Select to expand quoteMicrosurfer said..
I've got a 4.3PR & hoping that a new big PW will be released at awsi to replace my 6m CWC wing for those light wind days. It's not even really about line length or being able to pack it away but more about just flying it constantly& not having a huge wing in my face spoiling the view on those amazing sunny days.
I haven't made the PW leap yet but this is where I'm at as well. 5.5m is my most used wing and that's what I'd most like to replace with a PW since when it's 3m conditions I'd rather be windsurfing anyway. So a 6/4m quiver would be ideal.
Select to expand quoteMicrosurfer said..
& not having a huge wing in my face spoiling the view on those amazing sunny days.
amen
Yesterday I had my first good proper session on the 5.5m flow Dwing. I was pretty stoked to make it work.
This time of year in Perth it's all frontal winds which are very up and down. Yesterday was the first time the wind was light enough and steady enough to be able to use the 5.5m. Wind was averaging about 15 to 17 but down as low as 12 and up as high as 20 knots. I am 105kg, yesterday was on a 8x20x 128L downwind board and spitfire 1180. I could have gotten away with the 4.2m but was keen to give the 5.5m a go. I also tend to prioritise easy get up as we get a lot of seaweed and I am stopping to clear seaweed regularly. It was really easy to get going in these conditions and I was a bit overpowered when the wind picked up.
The 5.5m is a big beast of a thing. I am 6'3" tall and can only just reach the canopy in my full arm span. I shortened the lines with a simple wrap around the bar and this has helped a lot in the pack/wad, redeploy and in jibing. It definitely takes a bit more effort and focus to pack down and redeploy with more lines and more material to deal with but once you've got it wadded up the riding experience is very much the same. When I'm doing short upwind downwind sessions like yesterday I just tend to wad my pwings and hold in my back hand instead of a full stow. Yesterday I was able to get a lot of good downwind bump runs with the wing nicely wadded up and get a really good redeploy success rate. It's definitely more difficult with the bigger pwing but once you've got it wadded up it doesn't make too much difference to your riding. I was pretty stoked with yesterday as I had so much more fun than I would have riding bumps whilst flagging out my 5.5m wing. Overall it was more difficult than the 4.2 but I was still able to ride how I wanted and have a great session. I am happy as this setup confidently gets me down to as low of a wind as I can be bothered with (12knots).
My main use case for this will be getting out on my mid length on the lighter days or just having ample power for reliable get ups on downwinders as opposed to using it to push into really light winds.
So, I played with a 3.5m Frigate in the parking lot today and I gotta ask, what's up with the lines and all the knots? Just a few minutes in the lot ate my hand up bad enough to leave it sore. I mentioned it to the owner and he showed me his hands were all kinds of sliced up. Are the Frigate users wearing gloves? He added a metal ring to the lines that he slides up to try and protect his skin. This isn't something I heard of before and I was super bummed when I played with it. Everything else about it seemed pretty nice.
It gave me new perspective on the Ozone soft lines which get complaints about tangles but they definitely don't cut my hands.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
So, I played with a 3.5m Frigate in the parking lot today and I gotta ask, what's up with the lines and all the knots? Just a few minutes in the lot ate my hand up bad enough to leave it sore. I mentioned it to the owner and he showed me his hands were all kinds of sliced up. Are the Frigate users wearing gloves? He added a metal ring to the lines that he slides up to try and protect his skin. This isn't something I heard of before and I was super bummed when I played with it. Everything else about it seemed pretty nice.
It gave me new perspective on the Ozone soft lines which get complaints about tangles but they definitely don't cut my hands.
didnt notice, but i was surfing downwind when grabbing and stowing the 4m, not loaded up on land. have got crusty hands.
Select to expand quoteYoungbreezy said..
Yesterday I had my first good proper session on the 5.5m flow Dwing. I was pretty stoked to make it work.
This time of year in Perth it's all frontal winds which are very up and down. Yesterday was the first time the wind was light enough and steady enough to be able to use the 5.5m. Wind was averaging about 15 to 17 but down as low as 12 and up as high as 20 knots. I am 105kg, yesterday was on a 8x20x 128L downwind board and spitfire 1180. I could have gotten away with the 4.2m but was keen to give the 5.5m a go. I also tend to prioritise easy get up as we get a lot of seaweed and I am stopping to clear seaweed regularly. It was really easy to get going in these conditions and I was a bit overpowered when the wind picked up.
The 5.5m is a big beast of a thing. I am 6'3" tall and can only just reach the canopy in my full arm span. I shortened the lines with a simple wrap around the bar and this has helped a lot in the pack/wad, redeploy and in jibing. It definitely takes a bit more effort and focus to pack down and redeploy with more lines and more material to deal with but once you've got it wadded up the riding experience is very much the same. When I'm doing short upwind downwind sessions like yesterday I just tend to wad my pwings and hold in my back hand instead of a full stow. Yesterday I was able to get a lot of good downwind bump runs with the wing nicely wadded up and get a really good redeploy success rate. It's definitely more difficult with the bigger pwing but once you've got it wadded up it doesn't make too much difference to your riding. I was pretty stoked with yesterday as I had so much more fun than I would have riding bumps whilst flagging out my 5.5m wing. Overall it was more difficult than the 4.2 but I was still able to ride how I wanted and have a great session. I am happy as this setup confidently gets me down to as low of a wind as I can be bothered with (12knots).
My main use case for this will be getting out on my mid length on the lighter days or just having ample power for reliable get ups on downwinders as opposed to using it to push into really light winds.
Cool, thanks for the review. Sounds promising for me @ 86kgs to get up in a bit less wind. I've got the big boards & big foil & if it's reading 10knots out on the buoy I'm out there on the 6m wing. They're so cumbersome though on the downhill. Did your flow want to keep dropping going downhill?
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
So, I played with a 3.5m Frigate in the parking lot today and I gotta ask, what's up with the lines and all the knots? Just a few minutes in the lot ate my hand up bad enough to leave it sore. I mentioned it to the owner and he showed me his hands were all kinds of sliced up. Are the Frigate users wearing gloves? He added a metal ring to the lines that he slides up to try and protect his skin. This isn't something I heard of before and I was super bummed when I played with it. Everything else about it seemed pretty nice.
It gave me new perspective on the Ozone soft lines which get complaints about tangles but they definitely don't cut my hands.
They are not sharper than the D-wing I'd say, but Ozones are softer. When you go downwind I haven't felt this to be a problem though, as the tension is low. I've seen some parawingers wear like a bike glow with cut off fingers, not specifically with the Frigate, but I can see that if you parawing very often your hands get sore and could use protection.
Interesting. It's a unique metric that I can see being nothing for some people but being a real hassle for others. Good to know. One more reason to try before you buy I suppose! I didn't feel this at all with the BRMs either. I wonder if it's just the specific knots, cord, or sheer quantity on some designs?
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
Interesting. It's a unique metric that I can see being nothing for some people but being a real hassle for others. Good to know. One more reason to try before you buy I suppose! I didn't feel this at all with the BRMs either. I wonder if it's just the specific knots, cord, or sheer quantity on some designs?
I own BRMs kanahas 2,5 m, 4m and 5.5 m. And naish 3m and 4m (very similar to the f-one honestly).
The 5.5 m can go from 8 knt and feels well powered at 10-12 knt. From 15 and more is a truck.
What I learned:
-A big parawing must be of a light material, because the issue is not going up or starting, there is plenty of pull in the 5 meters (same as a wing or more). But giving is very hard in heavy parawings. The 5.5 meters kanaha gives better in 10 knt than the 4m naish in 15 knt. Weight slows things down and decreases reactiveness.
-A big parawing requires a higher aspect ratio as material tends to fold between the A, B, and C lines; plus, definitely no folding tips in gusts.
Now all parawing that I tested works well in 3 and 4 meters, and in the 15 to 25 knt range. Challenges are at the top and bottom end, so I would say that selecting different brands should not be discarded at this point looking for the perfect combination of weight and AR.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
Interesting. It's a unique metric that I can see being nothing for some people but being a real hassle for others. Good to know. One more reason to try before you buy I suppose! I didn't feel this at all with the BRMs either. I wonder if it's just the specific knots, cord, or sheer quantity on some designs?
I own BRMs kanahas 2,5 m, 4m and 5.5 m. And naish 3m and 4m (very similar to the f-one honestly).
The 5.5 m can go from 8 knt and feels well powered at 10-12 knt. From 15 and more is a truck.
What I learned:
-A big parawing must be of a light material, because the issue is not going up or starting, there is plenty of pull in the 5 meters (same as a wing or more). But giving is very hard in heavy parawings. The 5.5 meters kanaha gives better in 10 knt than the 4m naish in 15 knt. Weight slows things down and decreases reactiveness.
-A big parawing requires a higher aspect ratio as material tends to fold between the A, B, and C lines; plus, definitely no folding tips in gusts.
Now all parawing that I tested works well in 3 and 4 meters, and in the 15 to 25 knt range. Challenges are at the top and bottom end, so I would say that selecting different brands should not be discarded at this point looking for the perfect combination of weight and AR.
I had a 4.7 kanaha that would slice my hand as I got to the closest bridals to the canopy. Those bridals are thinner than the lower ones and spread wider because its such a big long wing, so more tension on the slide. I am used to the maliko and the flow which have similar feeling bridals on the slide. Just traded for a 4.2 ka'a so will report back after I use it. I usually only grab the A-lines.
