Anybody able to directly compare these masts?
I could throw No Limitz in there but ive had one and it was a noodle at my 95kg
Select to expand quotemartyman said..
Anybody able to directly compare these masts?
I could throw No Limitz in there but ive had one and it was a noodle at my 95kg
I would imagine it being close to the SAB Kraken mast, Project Cedrus being a bit stiffer. But very interested to know as well.
Select to expand quotemartyman said..
I could throw No Limitz in there but ive had one and it was a noodle at my 95kg
Good to know
Bit silly to compare all those masts as you'll have totally different foils on each one, unless you fit them all on the Cedrus.
They each have pluses and minuses: weight, chord, stiffness, torsion etc......
It all depends what you really want to do ?
I do not think spending $1700 to $2000 plus on a mast which is a tiny bit stiffer will make an enormous difference to the average punter (me). Happy on the GoFoil mast, seems stiff enough. No funny wobbles.
Select to expand quotehilly said..
I do not think spending $1700 to $2000 plus on a mast which is a tiny bit stiffer will make an enormous difference to the average punter (me). Happy on the GoFoil mast, seems stiff enough. No funny wobbles.
I think gofoil is even stiffer than cedrus last time i checked. Defo zero wobbles on that
All true comments - but interesting the focus straight to stiffness. Starting to think there's more to it - stiffness all but one of the factors.
I guess, you can always learn how to work with flex? But coming from Axis with 19mm mast and trying gofoil...feeling was stiff. Then when jumped on armstrong, I was kind of off guard. Not saying Armstrong sucks, we all know armstrong is a really good product, but I assume rider get used to there more flexible mast/wings etc.When I do have a bolt that become loose on my mast plate, or fuse etc, I feel it and hate it, so I think maybe mast can be flexible, wings can flex a bit, that could be part of what you want to provide as feel, but I think connections cannot be loose or weak and shaky. Oups..that is nothing to do with the original question lol!! I do want to know, because I'm tempted with a carbon mast next year, and not sure it worth it.
Sounds fair...till you tried a mast that is not stiff enough really don,t appriciate stifness.
I have the Cedrus and with 95kg its a bless. haven,t tried the rest (yet), but woudnt compromise on the stifness for less drag or whatsoever
I have the new Armstrong 935 mast. 82kg. My only reference point is the Armstrong A+ 85cm mast (I started winging on Naish gear but that's beyond comparison). The new mast is so much more than just being stiffer--everything is direct. It responds incredibly well to user input on all axes.
I recently had the opportunity to try a friend's AXIS high mod 90cm with ART 899 rigged to my FG board. Tried it back-to-back winging with the Armstrong 935 with 925, which is pretty similar to the 899. The AXIS was too stiff, IMO. The Armstrong was significantly more maneuverable, as well as being a lot easier to control overfoiling when waveriding (as MidAtlanticFoil noted on a different thread). Some of the DW SUP lads in my area have told me that the stiffness of the AXIS really helps to get up on foil and direct user input straight onto/into the foil when pumping (without necessarily having to be an expert in pumping). The same is probably applicable for the dock-pump market, which AXIS has killed with the PNG 1310.
I think what had everyone chasing stiffer setup was the completely noodle efforts from uni and Armstrong. Both these companies will finally go stiff but it has been a long wait with lots of marketing around usable flex while the loyal waited.
They weren't the only ones but being among the early brands meant there was many of them around. Being early they can be forgiven but some of the big brands later releases with reportedly good wings and masts on the soft side should be judged harshly.
The wider wingspans really highlighted the inadequacies of some masts and forced the brands to reengineer.
gofoil was the only carbon offering with a stiff enough setup till just now and reportedly hm for many many years
as the chord and thickness affect drag dramatically there will be different sweet spots for different weights where stiffness is more than enough. Most won't need a 19mm mast in hm but some will.
Select to expand quoteNordRoi said..
I guess, you can always learn how to work with flex? But coming from Axis with 19mm mast and trying gofoil...feeling was stiff. Then when jumped on armstrong, I was kind of off guard. Not saying Armstrong sucks, we all know armstrong is a really good product, but I assume rider get used to there more flexible mast/wings etc.When I do have a bolt that become loose on my mast plate, or fuse etc, I feel it and hate it, so I think maybe mast can be flexible, wings can flex a bit, that could be part of what you want to provide as feel, but I think connections cannot be loose or weak and shaky. Oups..that is nothing to do with the original question lol!! I do want to know, because I'm tempted with a carbon mast next year, and not sure it worth it.
Don't get me wrong - stiffness is a major factor - not discounting that. Man I'm still on the original Armstrong mast - that's not fun on the HAs (not an issue on the HS wings winging but proning even the HS is an issue) even at my weight. Must be a nightmare for bigger folks. Can't wait to get my 795 - but not just for the stiffness due to factors covered above by Paul.
Select to expand quotepaulweller2 said..
I have the new Armstrong 935 mast. 82kg. My only reference point is the Armstrong A+ 85cm mast (I started winging on Naish gear but that's beyond comparison). The new mast is so much more than just being stiffer--everything is direct. It responds incredibly well to user input on all axes.
Your experience is very much in line with my understanding of the design objectives of the Armie performance mast. He talks about these points repeatedly. Stiffness is one factor amongst many others in terms of the ultimate performance of a given mast. Thank you for providing your experience.
Unfortunately, it is typical of discussion forums to focus on one single aspect of a topic (in this example, obsessing over stiffness only) and lose all nuance.
This reminds me of the fundamentalists in the ongoing stiff vs. floppy handles discussion.
Select to expand quoteArthurAlston said..paulweller2 said..
I have the new Armstrong 935 mast. 82kg. My only reference point is the Armstrong A+ 85cm mast (I started winging on Naish gear but that's beyond comparison). The new mast is so much more than just being stiffer--everything is direct. It responds incredibly well to user input on all axes.
Your experience is very much in line with my understanding of the design objectives of the Armie performance mast. He talks about these points repeatedly. Stiffness is one factor amongst many others in terms of the ultimate performance of a given mast. Thank you for providing your experience.
Unfortunately, it is typical of discussion forums to focus on one single aspect of a topic (in this example, obsessing over stiffness only) and lose all nuance.
This reminds me of the fundamentalists in the ongoing stiff vs. floppy handles discussion.
Yes but it is the stiffness that delivers the direct response to user input. The discussion became important because it was the lack of stiffness that made all the other design features of the mast, and more importantly the foil, perform at way less than their optimum.
Army is the best sales person in the business bar none. I love his enthusiasm for the sport. Check out the old video link below where the stiffness issue was raised. About 11 minutes on. The best salesman right there. His message was very dated at the time and has aged poorly but he sold it so well.
I had a V1 85cm Armstrong mast for nearly a year as well as the 72 cm version. Having spent most of my time on Armstrong foils so far, I'm not sure I knew what I was missing with regards to stiffness until I started riding the HA foils. The 1125 in particular felt like it had a mind of its own and I was a total passenger at times. My v1 85cm mast ended up being warranted and Armstrong replaced it with an A+ model (awesome customer support from Armie). The new mast felt noticeably heavier and stiffer and the 1125 has settled down in some of the negative behaviour it had on the softer mast, but I'm also running a shorter fuse (50 vs 60). For riders like myself at the 200lb/90kg mark, the performance mast sounds great or even more important, necessary to squeeze the best performance out of the rig even it is pricey.
Select to expand quoteAnyBoard said..ArthurAlston said..paulweller2 said..
I have the new Armstrong 935 mast. 82kg. My only reference point is the Armstrong A+ 85cm mast (I started winging on Naish gear but that's beyond comparison). The new mast is so much more than just being stiffer--everything is direct. It responds incredibly well to user input on all axes.
Your experience is very much in line with my understanding of the design objectives of the Armie performance mast. He talks about these points repeatedly. Stiffness is one factor amongst many others in terms of the ultimate performance of a given mast. Thank you for providing your experience.
Unfortunately, it is typical of discussion forums to focus on one single aspect of a topic (in this example, obsessing over stiffness only) and lose all nuance.
This reminds me of the fundamentalists in the ongoing stiff vs. floppy handles discussion.
Yes but it is the stiffness that delivers the direct response to user input. The discussion became important because it was the lack of stiffness that made all the other design features of the mast, and more importantly the foil, perform at way less than their optimum.
Army is the best sales person in the business bar none. I love his enthusiasm for the sport. Check out the old video link below where the stiffness issue was raised. About 11 minutes on. The best salesman right there. His message was very dated at the time and has aged poorly but he sold it so well.
Stiff soft handles good. Hard handles bad.
Yeh I'm not too sure what you have to gain by passively aggressively knocking armie to be honest.
After all he's designed a successful foil company and you've done squat. Keep focusing on your stiffness if you must.
All we are saying is just making a stiffer mast is not the holy grail and a highly simplistic way of looking at things.
I'm wondering if rider weight also plays into how stiff you want the mast to be, a 95KG rider like me may benefit a lot more from a stiff HM mast where a person 65KG may not get as much as a benefit and be fine with aluminum, maybe the conditions (chop, swell, waves, flat) would play a role as well.
I've got an Axis HM mast on order now, been happy with the aluminum mast but wanted to try the new mast. I may ask to try my friends Armie for comparison but it may be tough to compare given differences in foils.
There's a HUGE reluctance however from my friends avoiding trying my Axis set up compared to their Armie set up and vice versa, deep down we're terrified we may like the other set up more so we stay in our lane!
DC
I use to ride armie but left as the 85v2 mast ventilated all the time for me kiting and winging with a HA925/1125 was just laughable with the wobble and lack of control. The only other wing that was any good (but slow) at my weight (>95 kg) was the HS1250, but armies release cycle is so slow and well behind industry peers.
Armie is a businessman first and foremost and his brand decisions are clearly business ones (driven by supply/demand/funding etc), like why didn't he release a new stiff 85cm mast now, the length that everyone likes for winging (what about all the retailers with all their unsold stock), the reason being is it would cannibalise the existing stock of 85cm masts that haven't sold, just wait next year he might decide to add the 85cm mast in the new stiff version. But many light weight riders will say you don't need a stronger mast, well if that is the case then why has he developed a stronger mast?
I have no regrets leaving armie brand, it has nice build quality and gear bags etc but for heavy riders just not an option, plus he has no foils that I like to be honest, but the new MA range might offer something that current armie riders are presently missing. The brand offers good resale on the secondary market and a good cheap option for a beginner to get started (if you're a lightweight).
I prefer MA foils around 7-8 aspect ratio, and IMO the new foils on offer by Cabrinha, Lift, GoFoil (RS1075/RS850), Uni are better than any of armie's offering.
Furthermore, the industry is just bat**** mad ATM as no wing board is worth 2.6-2.8K in Australia, just like no single foil is worth > 1K, and the same can be said for masts circa 2K. The industry is just capitalising on the new craze and exploiting all the punters and middleaged white men with disposable income.
How many teenagers are buying 2K masts, a lot of shifts at maccas and then no time to wing/prone :)
But as eppo has said, he has built a business, was positioned in the market around the right time when everyone was forced into covid lockdown and learnt the foil and winging was introduced which pulled many people into the sport. Whether the armie brand business is successful well only the inside shareholders would know that as not a public company.
Not many ride armie at my local, kiters mainly or 1st generation foilers stuck with the gear, most are on axis as they have options to suit all, but I've never ridden it so can't comment. The new armie wake/kite board looks great but not worth 1.8K
Demo everything so you don't end up buying something you regret owning after a couple of months and lose >50% reselling.
Select to expand quoteAlysum said..
Bit silly to compare all those masts as you'll have totally different foils on each one, unless you fit them all on the Cedrus.
They each have pluses and minuses: weight, chord, stiffness, torsion etc......
It all depends what you really want to do ?
Not silly at all when the mast might be the judge as tp what system a foiler goes with. Maybe you missed it, but there are more and more aftermarket fuselages and adaptors being engineered as well
Select to expand quoteAlysum said..
Bit silly to compare all those masts as you'll have totally different foils on each one, unless you fit them all on the Cedrus.
They each have pluses and minuses: weight, chord, stiffness, torsion etc......
It all depends what you really want to do ?
Not silly at all when the mast might be the judge as tp what system a foiler goes with. Maybe you missed it, but there are more and more aftermarket fuselages and adaptors being engineered as wellSelect to expand quoteeppo said..AnyBoard said..ArthurAlston said..paulweller2 said..
I have the new Armstrong 935 mast. 82kg. My only reference point is the Armstrong A+ 85cm mast (I started winging on Naish gear but that's beyond comparison). The new mast is so much more than just being stiffer--everything is direct. It responds incredibly well to user input on all axes.
Your experience is very much in line with my understanding of the design objectives of the Armie performance mast. He talks about these points repeatedly. Stiffness is one factor amongst many others in terms of the ultimate performance of a given mast. Thank you for providing your experience.
Unfortunately, it is typical of discussion forums to focus on one single aspect of a topic (in this example, obsessing over stiffness only) and lose all nuance.
This reminds me of the fundamentalists in the ongoing stiff vs. floppy handles discussion.
Yes but it is the stiffness that delivers the direct response to user input. The discussion became important because it was the lack of stiffness that made all the other design features of the mast, and more importantly the foil, perform at way less than their optimum.
Army is the best sales person in the business bar none. I love his enthusiasm for the sport. Check out the old video link below where the stiffness issue was raised. About 11 minutes on. The best salesman right there. His message was very dated at the time and has aged poorly but he sold it so well.
Stiff soft handles good. Hard handles bad.
Yeh I'm not too sure what you have to gain by passively aggressively knocking armie to be honest.
After all he's designed a successful foil company and you've done squat. Keep focusing on your stiffness if you must.
All we are saying is just making a stiffer mast is not the holy grail and a highly simplistic way of looking at things.
Passive aggressively attack Army? LOL. Without seeing that video I remember a time when the first generation fuselage/wings were so wiggly they were unusable. The factory company line that Army told them was wing wiggle helped with performance. SERIOUS BS. There were a few guys locally and lots more all around that left Armstrong after that.
That aside, for me a bigger guy 90-95kg(depending on how many cookies I've been eating) stiffness is the single most important factor with a mast. If it's a noodle, for me it's useless for surf, possibly ok for winging with smaller wings but mostly a waist of money.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..AnyBoard said..ArthurAlston said..paulweller2 said..
I have the new Armstrong 935 mast. 82kg. My only reference point is the Armstrong A+ 85cm mast (I started winging on Naish gear but that's beyond comparison). The new mast is so much more than just being stiffer--everything is direct. It responds incredibly well to user input on all axes.
Your experience is very much in line with my understanding of the design objectives of the Armie performance mast. He talks about these points repeatedly. Stiffness is one factor amongst many others in terms of the ultimate performance of a given mast. Thank you for providing your experience.
Unfortunately, it is typical of discussion forums to focus on one single aspect of a topic (in this example, obsessing over stiffness only) and lose all nuance.
This reminds me of the fundamentalists in the ongoing stiff vs. floppy handles discussion.
Yes but it is the stiffness that delivers the direct response to user input. The discussion became important because it was the lack of stiffness that made all the other design features of the mast, and more importantly the foil, perform at way less than their optimum.
Army is the best sales person in the business bar none. I love his enthusiasm for the sport. Check out the old video link below where the stiffness issue was raised. About 11 minutes on. The best salesman right there. His message was very dated at the time and has aged poorly but he sold it so well.
Stiff soft handles good. Hard handles bad.
Yeh I'm not too sure what you have to gain by passively aggressively knocking armie to be honest.
After all he's designed a successful foil company and you've done squat. Keep focusing on your stiffness if you must.
All we are saying is just making a stiffer mast is not the holy grail and a highly simplistic way of looking at things.
I have seen the new mast and it is a stellar effort but facts are facts Eppo and the past is there for all to judge just like I did.
For me brand loyalty is about trust and it should be earned.
I'll have to shoot you a resume so you can judge my life's work some more.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
may be an option for heavier guys now.
I am really keen on that wing 
, looks like an f-one flying machine. I would love to know if the new mast is wobble wobble or not because the Alchemy fuses open up some interesting doors there
I know of two gofoil riders who've switched to NoLimitz masts and they swear by them. One recently mentioned the foil section is much better. Crazy to think that the foil section comes into play so much more than we were considering before (speaking for myself mostly haha)
I know of two gofoil riders who've switched to NoLimitz masts and they swear by them. One recently mentioned the foil section is much better. Crazy to think that the foil section comes into play so much more than we were considering before (speaking for myself mostly haha)
really, nolimitz has big quality issues and breaks, don't hear that with gofoil.
I was very close to switching from gofoil, but the RS1075 keep me with them for now, finally a nice profile wing, still interested in cabrinha's new mast and foil range next year, armie still has no decent foils atm so that's why I guess everyone frothing over a mast, when are the 8 AR foils coming in the armie range
Select to expand quotenorth_kiter said..
really, nolimitz has big quality issues and breaks, don't hear that with gofoil.
I was very close to switching from gofoil, but the RS1075 keep me with them for now, finally a nice profile wing, still interested in cabrinha's new mast and foil range next year, armie still has no decent foils atm so that's why I guess everyone frothing over a mast, when are the 8 AR foils coming in the armie range
Go Foil really did nail a nice stiff mast early on, no question there. As above commented, the foil section on the nonlimitz is really speedy no doubt. It was just too flexible for me in the 90+kg club. OK f winging, not so much with surf
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Alright apologies above. All good. Let's talk masts shall we
In an ideal world a mast is a stiff as f$ck and as slim as can be because a thin mast with very little drag feels magic.In real live its always a compromise between stiffness and drag. When you are a halfling or blessed with having a teen body you get away with a way less stiff and thinner, less draggy mast as Real man of 90kg+
I Have the Cedrus mast myself and demoed the Cabrinha H series with there carbon 13mm thin noodle mast. It was in light wind a lovely dragless feeling, but as soon as the wind picked up or it was just choppy, you could litteraly feel the thing bend beneath me like a hula hula girl.
I was still so impressed with the plane that I bought the H1200 +H1000 and later the H800 and still love them BUT with my way thicker Cedrus I lost a bit of that wonderfull dragless magic of the Plane. Now with my Cedrus I have waaaay more control, but at the expense of noticable more drag. I do still think the Cedrus its stifness is the better mastoption for me, but If i was like, lets say 65kg, I would opted for the carbon Cabrinha mast and I have the same experience when trying the Fone 7seas1200 fitst with the Fone HM mast and later on with a Cedrus.
So I agree it isnt only about stiffness, but because stifness ads soo much control it is still the most important factor for full grown guys.
2th will be drag and again, a very light person gets simply away with a less stiff=less drag system so the optimum will be for each weightclass different.
100% agree with what you said @jeroensurf, that's why I've held off on the cedrus as it's a fatty, but guys use it at my local and say it's good, plus they can ride any brands with an adapter.
I'm 100kg+ on gofoil atm (I think 14mm thick and 127mm chord) and sometimes when winging the swell is at a funky angle to the mast you can feel the drag and it's basic a flat piece of carbon no taper at all.
I'm hoping Cabrinha comes out with a stiff mast next January as I think they are on the right track, but stuffed up with v1 by the sounds of it, being a noodle, personally I've never ridden it, but from forum feedback I'm not going to bother. their h-series foils look money, haven't tried them yet.
I think slingshot have a strong mast (funny foot though), UniFoil is apparently strong too in v2.
My moses mast is great for kiting, 91 cm (13.5mm thick, 1.693 kg) and can go over 30kn on foil with it, I jump high, do back flips etc, but when kiting using a super light weight board 100cm and always have lift from the kite so the dynamics are different. I wouldn't dare use it with my heavy wing board, it would be noodly as $##@! And kiting you don't want a heavy mast to jump with.
But there's more to just a mast imo, it's the whole package, do you like the foils of the brand you ride, can you use an adapter, use different tails easily, does the brand release new foils often, is there a good resale value if the foil you thought would be good turns out to be a lemon?
