Good news Seabreezer Flikka uses slight toe in the back fins too as Gianni Valdambrini even more in his late Acme boards RIDICULOUS X4 
Select to expand quoteI seabreezer said..
Here's Kai's personal board - above pic - you can clearly see the TOE against red parrallel line - (btw he doesn't like TOE - he only used the board as his preferred board best performer to go win the aloha classic that he really wants TO WIN above everything , so he chose that board with the ****ty performing TOED fronts - and got 3rd .... hmmmm
The 1st two pics is KT's board - again - a shed load of TOE - maybe 5 deg plus ... Kt's toe is extreme .... his front boxes were pointing to the nose apex like surfboards (and his !) .... If they don't use it and it doesn't work - why would he be trying his own personal customs 3 deg more than they have been putting in the last 10 years ?! ie taking it to even more extreme levels ..... if he is 'trying' it out for the 1st time - FAAAARK - he went all in on extremity - without all that data the last 10 years !
I have 3 ..... yes 3 Quatro customs - THEY ALL HAVE TOE ...... every custom Quatro the last 10 years - HAS HAS TOE ....
Other posters here have customs Goya and Quatro - again with TOE ,,,,,, so go figure
nope. He didn't choose that board or use it at the aloha
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..I seabreezer said..
Here's Kai's personal board - above pic - you can clearly see the TOE against red parrallel line - (btw he doesn't like TOE - he only used the board as his preferred board best performer to go win the aloha classic that he really wants TO WIN above everything , so he chose that board with the ****ty performing TOED fronts - and got 3rd .... hmmmm
The 1st two pics is KT's board - again - a shed load of TOE - maybe 5 deg plus ... Kt's toe is extreme .... his front boxes were pointing to the nose apex like surfboards (and his !) .... If they don't use it and it doesn't work - why would he be trying his own personal customs 3 deg more than they have been putting in the last 10 years ?! ie taking it to even more extreme levels ..... if he is 'trying' it out for the 1st time - FAAAARK - he went all in on extremity - without all that data the last 10 years !
I have 3 ..... yes 3 Quatro customs - THEY ALL HAVE TOE ...... every custom Quatro the last 10 years - HAS HAS TOE ....
Other posters here have customs Goya and Quatro - again with TOE ,,,,,, so go figure
nope. He didn't choose that board or use it at the aloha
Your right - he didn't use Keiths board with extreme TOE in the aloha ..... (it would have had a ton of rocker that nobody else uses ) - the one in the pic was his back up for when it got big - .... the one he used (ALSO WITH TOE) - was the smaller conditions waveboard ..... do your research Gestalt .....
At what point do you anti TOE guys just surrender and move on ?
Select to expand quoteSnapfigure said..
Good news Seabreezer Flikka uses slight toe in the back fins too as Gianni Valdambrini even more in his late Acme boards RIDICULOUS X4
I know other shapers (that rip btw ) that do ..... quad - all boxes - TOE ....
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..Gestalt said..I seabreezer said..
Here's Kai's personal board - above pic - you can clearly see the TOE against red parrallel line - (btw he doesn't like TOE - he only used the board as his preferred board best performer to go win the aloha classic that he really wants TO WIN above everything , so he chose that board with the ****ty performing TOED fronts - and got 3rd .... hmmmm
The 1st two pics is KT's board - again - a shed load of TOE - maybe 5 deg plus ... Kt's toe is extreme .... his front boxes were pointing to the nose apex like surfboards (and his !) .... If they don't use it and it doesn't work - why would he be trying his own personal customs 3 deg more than they have been putting in the last 10 years ?! ie taking it to even more extreme levels ..... if he is 'trying' it out for the 1st time - FAAAARK - he went all in on extremity - without all that data the last 10 years !
I have 3 ..... yes 3 Quatro customs - THEY ALL HAVE TOE ...... every custom Quatro the last 10 years - HAS HAS TOE ....
Other posters here have customs Goya and Quatro - again with TOE ,,,,,, so go figure
nope. He didn't choose that board or use it at the aloha
Your right - he didn't use Keiths board with extreme TOE in the aloha ..... (it would have had a ton of rocker that nobody else uses ) - the one in the pic was his back up for when it got big - .... the one he used (ALSO WITH TOE) - was the smaller conditions waveboard ..... do your research Gestalt .....
At what point do you anti TOE guys just surrender and move on ?
I'm not anti toe. Ive been pretty clear on where i think toe has an advantage over no toe and vice versa.
Have said it more than once and specifically to you. Design can be nuanced like that.
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
them boxes don't looked Toe'd - do they Gesalt .... ?
Tell ya what. I'll take that image into cad and see how much toe it has. Im thinking not much at all.
Its real hard to tell because the rail curve creates an optical illusion on some boards. My guess is about 1mm.
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
What about this one ? .... Rider mentioned we don't know what Bernd's riding .... pic looks pretty TOE'd to me , and RIDER - I would say Bernd Rodiger has been setting things alight riding wise - highlight reels huge smacks at hookipa some of the best little slices of action ever , amazing turns ... on a QUAD with Toed fronts - (and incidentally won Cape Verde same set up) ... so I think ...Rider ....a re-test of your hypothesis might be in order .....
I never had a hypothesis.
I'm quite happy with the results of the testing I did thankyou, so I might pass on your re test suggestion.
I don't think we are going to agree on the tow of quads. We may agree on the tow of thrusters. If you want to set your board up that way, fine.
But to others reading this I have tried front fin tow on quads, back to back testing on identical shape boards using various fin angles and profiles over a period of months and for me, 4 parallel fins turned better than having two fronts towed in.
I'm not that dogmatic and am open to work out the possibilities in how you've set yours up.
Can I ask what boards, size, year you've used your set up in and the fins sizes, construction, brand that you have used?
Re all the pics you've put up, it's still hearsay unless I see a pic with a ruler and actual measurements on it.
I think on some of the pics you've posted it looks like tow in on others I think it's an optical illusion you can't draw conclusions from these pics especially as some are at angles. Often our mind will see what it wants to see due to our beliefs.
Looking forward to your reply with your board and fin specs.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanishing_point
@ Markaustralia- funny all the posturing / assertions of opinion / displays of arrogance - based on flawed information that you have no way of quantifying if true or not (basically pissing in the wind with opinion ). You think your at the forefront of current 'tech' thought - yet this info on Quatro's shaping processes has been out there for over a decade ! .....like a decade behind the 8 ball .... shame on you ....
RIDER - SO here's my 3 customs - quads - various years - all with TOE ..... that's measurements at front and end of box ONLY - and in addition to that TOE - either 1 deg or 2 deg k4's - (so I end up with around 3-3.5 deg ) .... but maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see ... on the ruler ... ?
Re your point some look Toed , some don't , alot of people would say these 'look' straight - I can see the TOE personally , just the line of front box vs rear , and when I look at pics of custom quads particularly - I can see that same couple of degrees TOE that KT has been putting in for years.... my point is - even if some boxes look straight on the pics - there's TOE ....
@Rider - Definitely my mind playing tricks and me seeing what I want to see .... I now think they are actually bending out ....
For the record - KT is THE legend of windsurfing for me .... Everybody attributes equipment progression to Kauli - but KT was his shaper - translating all kauli's ideas into actual boards that work .....Two of my customs are AMAZING , and the other (different brief) is pretty good ..... I think Quatro and Goya are fantastic brands and market leaders .... With straight front boxes (like alot of other brands do also ) - customer can always add TOED fins like k4 to enhance turning performance and grip . The perfect production set up IMO is similar to his custom and what Ola/ simmer do - 1.5/1.8 deg boxes with symms - or add a 1deg fin / 2 deg fin for even better grip .... so long as customers know they can / should try that option ... in their straight box production boards
@Gestalt - its fine if you want to run your sports car in MAZDA DEMIO set -up - Perhaps KT is well aware - that's all you guys ever want and you'll be happy ... ? ... , BUT if your ever curious - KT has been shaping the real deal for his custom customers for 10 years .... (that's alot of customers to piss off with something not working ) .... its laughable some on here still believe the misinformation you and MarkA arguing about .... when you have no basis of facts whatsoever ... get over it and move on dude - I could keep posting pics of customs with TOE till the cows come home ....
Hey - knock yourself out - do a little trip to maui (With MarkA ) , and have a little measure up of front boxes (Levi's et all ) .... and then come back and apologise .... and while your at it .... showcase the mazda demio skills to Levi and Bernd and Braw and Jaegar and Campello and KP and Camille and Kai and KT and all the other guys riding customs painted up , , tell them not to think in terms of absolutes , because someone won in Pozo on a twin fin ....
I really think Pascal B was referring to ASSY fins , rather than TOE
@Rider - mostly around 15's G10 rears .... and 10's or 8's k4 fronts .... in the Quatro's - which are all around the 83 / 84 / 85 qtr size - 56cm - 57.5 cm .... narrowish tails ....
Ive also got a couple of small pintail production quads - that are FAULTLESS - running in mast hi and 3.7 weather lots of power / chop and not one little spanner in the works in a session - a 75ltr x 55.5 , and an 83ltr x 56.6 - again - around 8's fronts / 15 g10 rears .... work amazing .... Ive also had a bunch of other quads work really good .... with TOE ... (way way way better than what they did with straight fronts / symm fins ) ...
ALL the quads Ive liked working with TOE - are single concave with / without doubles inside .... Ive had a weird sessions on a quad with double on v .... , and then reverted back to tri-fin next session , are your boards mostly double/v ?
Maybe your local conditions (side on ) either suit your findings , what happens when you travel to a different / better / faster wave / different wind angle ? - might change your hypothesis , ........Maybe something about your set-up / shaping suits your findings - fair enough ...
Wow. 4 frothing posts even though nobody is replying. You say Keith is a legend but you dismiss the Quatro email to Alex completely. So is KT a liar, or what?
Nobody said if you get a custom board made to win at Ho'okipa that you don't use toe.
The issue is with the frothers like you who say everything needs toe, period. No. There is reason the companies make all round boards for most people in most spots.
Further, yes we know pro's don't sail factory boards, we all know that.
Further again, if you ordered boards with toe does not prove anything. I can order a Tesla in red, doesn't mean they all should be, or EV's are the greatest, or red is faster. So go ahead measure your boards for us and post pics, but I've measured more boxes than you've had hot dinners and I can tell you there is no way you can see toe at 1.5 to 2deg like you just asserted with those pics on the beach. Not when there is rail curve and perspective gives a vanishing point etc. You can guess there might be a bit of toe - but from a pic to declare "that is 1.5 to 2deg" is absurd.
I will also say almost all boards have boxes with varying box placement - off centre, toe different on one side to the other etc etc.
Get any board and mark a centreline from measuring rail apex, then try it with the boxes vs the nose and its all over the place. I do that repeatedly, daily, for a job. Nothing is straight, nothing is perfect and so that lets me know talk of tiny little toe tweaks is a load of crap.
Again - if you want a ho'okipa board yes, toe ya thruster. But when you make 2000 plus boards for sale all over the world, its the best compromise for everyone at lots of places. Go stick ya Ezzy's in if you like, fine. But to declare anything with no toe is crap is ignorant.
One of my fin arrangements is loved by every rider at a wide variety of cross-on to full DTL spots and its something nobody in this thread has mentioned at all until recently. I don't have a pic of Levi holding it though so you will declare it is crap huh.
Bloke brought in a SUP this week and loves it, the best thing ever he said. Its Hawaiian. He loves it, turns insane and fast.
It has less than half the toe in of all other surf SUPs I have seen. Explain?
(PS don't criticise my boards until you've ridden one. And don't say we need to measure toe on Maui. You're looking like a w^nker now).
Well said Mark.
I was getting pretty annoyed by Seabreezers comments, he seems to want to back everything up with science and not how people ride and what they like. All I could come up with was " Why don't you just FXXX off". Glad you worded it more eloquently.
Bet he doesn't sail anywhere in OZ either.
More than happy for him to keep riding his customs about 8000km away, and following Levi and Kai around with his camera.
Thanks for the info, I'll look in depth at it later, my boards are a deep concave that ends 470mm from the tail and then transitions into a vee. My fins are super stiff g10 9cm and 16 and 8cm and 15cm combos, not a fan of the yellow plastic fins, I have some they're a bit slow and draggy, but are handy as they seem to not pick up ribbon weed as much as my g10s. I have used the towed in plastic fins in a Goya thruster and they did improve the turns.
The plastic fins have a lot of flex when loaded up which may change their angles under water when turning on a wave.
Curious to know how you would go with some fast stiff g10 towed in front fins and fast stiff G10 rears.
I need to try some towed in plastic fins in a quad
.
Most boards are supplied with G10 fins, I think most shapers are testing quads with G10s.
It seems like the plastic ones are working for you.
One of my other boards is a Goya quad it came with towed OUT front boxes by 1degree. I adjusted the fin bases to get them parallel probably an error in the factory.
Select to expand quoteWind Smurf said..
Well said Mark.
I was getting pretty annoyed by Seabreezers comments, he seems to want to back everything up with science and not how people ride and what they like. All I could come up with was " Why don't you just FXXX off". Glad you worded it more eloquently.
Bet he doesn't sail anywhere in OZ either.
You should have jumped in with ya just FXXX off when Mark et all were throwing pies at proper shapers / good calibre sailors who can no doubt sail rings around em .... and out shape em any day of the week
Im done here ..... nothing more to add .... enjoy the Demio club
Select to expand quoteNo probs man. Show some boards you bought, use some caps and you're an expert.
All good. More caps and you will get believers. You go gal.
Just out of interest let's look at that thread where U prefer the Goya thruster but go on and on about the Quatro Cube and how it's great at many things - and guess what it's got no toe in
You're a brand-whore.
When someone (seabreezer) appears to be drunk posting I tend to discount the value of what they post.
Select to expand quoteR1DER said..
Thanks for the info, I'll look in depth at it later, my boards are a deep concave that ends 470mm from the tail and then transitions into a vee. My fins are super stiff g10 9cm and 16 and 8cm and 15cm combos, not a fan of the yellow plastic fins, I have some they're a bit slow and draggy, but are handy as they seem to not pick up ribbon weed as much as my g10s. I have used the towed in plastic fins in a Goya thruster and they did improve the turns.
The plastic fins have a lot of flex when loaded up which may change their angles under water when turning on a wave.
Curious to know how you would go with some fast stiff g10 towed in front fins and fast stiff G10 rears.
I need to try some towed in plastic fins in a quad
.
Most boards are supplied with G10 fins, I think most shapers are testing quads with G10s.
It seems like the plastic ones are working for you.
One of my other boards is a Goya quad it came with towed OUT front boxes by 1degree. I adjusted the fin bases to get them parallel probably an error in the factory.
The K4 AIs are stiffer than the ezzys.
could be +/- 0.25 degree.
watch how Kai rips on this board compared to the other 2 boards he tested. the other 2 boards had more toe. One with significantly more toe.
this board notionally has minimal toe and looks to be on rails through the bottom turn with speed to burn.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
More than happy for him to keep riding his customs about 8000km away, and following Levi and Kai around with his camera.Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..No probs man. Show some boards you bought, use some caps and you're an expert.
All good. More caps and you will get believers. You go gal.
Just out of interest let's look at that thread where U prefer the Goya thruster but go on and on about the Quatro Cube and how it's great at many things - and guess what it's got no toe in
You're a brand-whore.
80000 km away - Figuratively , Metaphorically , Metaphysically ....
just out of interest - re read that thread , problem with metabolic syndrome .... is your wires start getting crossed in your brain ... The guy didn't review as some / me thought a few hours 'testing' was BS / comparison then selecting a 'winner' , so I 'theorised' how they might compare ... bearing in mind seeing good riders (mates and a few pro's ) riding both boards ... ive never ridden either board - read stuff carefully ....
SO how qualified are you Mark ?
I can throw a few more pics / sequences here if you like - I'm no 'expert ' , but I garner Im more of an expert than you ...
wave360 ...
pocket taka ....
squaring up VERT to the lip ....
bored .... grubby on the face ....
here's a sequence .... eyeing that lip in the corner
this day below out on own ,.... light wind roll in's ....
I know this doesn't compare to coronation beach ....... so what you got Mark ? ..... I NEVER post any pics (and don't like posting these ) - - but your sheer ability to literally walk into every brick wall necessitates special treatment ....
Post some stuff tearing up Gnarloo ..... show us how qualified you are
If this were a conversation about how to throw down some big moves you'd be looking pretty good right now.
But its not. Lol.
Mark has enough respect here to not have to prove anything to anyone.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
If this were a conversation about how to throw down some big moves you'd be looking pretty good rght now.
But its not. Lol.
Mark has enough respect here to not have to prove anything to anyone.
for this ? ..... don't like the graphics at all .... (and this one of his better looking shapes)
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
If this were a conversation about how to throw down some big moves you'd be looking pretty good right now.
But its not. Lol.
Mark has enough respect here to not have to prove anything to anyone.
Problem is .... when your an average sailor shaper - your own technical / technique issues changes how / what your testing. ... and what your you think your riding ... see below - its when you really PUSH rails and technique hard - you find the gremlins in the set-up / system ........ there's plenty amazing shapers out there that rip also .... think I'd sooner listen to them ...
and BTW - shots all with Quads / Toe .... (ie tested Rider ) ....
Here it is not about imposing anything on anyone... just helping. As has been said before...it is repeated a lot...putting the toe in helps to surf...there is nothing more. Nobody forces you to try anything if you don't need it...I've noticed a difference and it improves my boards, especially in not so good conditions...and a lot...but surfing in waves requires being in shape and actively surfing...
Maybe if you are just looking to have a good time in the water on the weekend you don't need more, but this is not the subject
and many pages ago Basher ? said - other things in set-up matter much more .... boom hgt / mastfoot spot./ harness lines / technique / TOW etc and just about the longest list in front of FINS , and that anybody that tweaks they're essentially nerds sooner tinkering than sailing ?! ... well , a formula 1 car has a shed load of billion dollars in carbon / aerodynamics / technical tweaks going on above the ground .... problem is - when the driver loses grip and faith in his tyres , and confidence in the car - no amount of tweaks to settings on the steering wheel , $$$$ of aerodynamics will help - they just come in and have to CHANGE tyres .... and they're happy again - Fins are doing so much work gripping IN / through chop etc ... and you need the confidence - at all levels ...
Btw - I have about 2 conversations a year in the parking lot re fins .... I don't care what other people ride - some here have offered genuine advice - but the 'experts' want to jump in and just block every argument .... Any shaper in the know would laugh at these 13 pages ...
In answer to the original thread question - ITS A DETUNING MECHANISM .... maybe to make things less 'complicated' - I don't know
so '.......you go GAL ' EXPERT MARK 'A' ....
how have you found your set-ups in the taka' s youve thrown ... ?
or the wave Shaka's ??
or the wave 360s
Actually , NOW I think Im done with the thread ....
Done talking about how great you are.......
I just got private message from this tool, with a link, but its actually about some sort of sex thing so if anyone gets a message from this talk it up merchant don't open it, seems like a bit of a nonce sending stuff like that to people. (maybe its Prince Andrew in disguise ).
Judging by how he talks up his sailing too he's obviously the best sailor ever.
I do admit he does look quite good but why try and prove you are better than everyone else.
What a complete Muppet.
Select to expand quote
and BTW - shots all with Quads / Toe .... (ie tested Rider ) ....
Hmm those pics could be anyone.
Just because you say they're quads with toe, it doesn't mean it's the truth.
So it's all still just hearsay.
How do we know the pics are of you?
How do we know the boards had the tow in fins in that day?
Some people, now I'm not saying you, have been known to lie or post false pics on the internet.
I'm sorry but just some random pics is not evidence enough to back up your belief.
I've been thinking about your set up and maybe those plastic fins flex into a neutral position when under load in a turn? They are very forgiving fins with the flex they have.
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
and many pages ago Basher ? said - other things in set-up matter much more .... boom hgt / mastfoot spot./ harness lines / technique / TOW etc and just about the longest list in front of FINS , and that anybody that tweaks they're essentially nerds sooner tinkering than sailing ?! ... well , a formula 1 car has a shed load of billion dollars in carbon / aerodynamics / technical tweaks going on above the ground .... problem is - when the driver loses grip and faith in his tyres , and confidence in the car - no amount of tweaks to settings on the steering wheel , $$$$ of aerodynamics will help - they just come in and have to CHANGE tyres .... and they're happy again - Fins are doing so much work gripping IN / through chop etc ... and you need the confidence - at all levels ...
Btw - I have about 2 conversations a year in the parking lot re fins .... I don't care what other people ride - some here have offered genuine advice - but the 'experts' want to jump in and just block every argument .... Any shaper in the know would laugh at these 13 pages ...
In answer to the original thread question - ITS A DETUNING MECHANISM .... maybe to make things less 'complicated' - I don't know
Not sure I like being mis quoted or being misrepresented, but hey, if I write a lot of words then people do just skim read them.
What I can say is that windsurf wavesailing is not on a technological par with formula one racing and never will be. And thank god.
The key for most windsurfers is to find a windy day, then a wavey surf break, in the time they have available - and achieving both of those factors is an achievement in itself.
For sure, if you have those two basics - and loads of extra time - then you can fiddle with your fins.
You should start with fin position, and then maybe change your fin size.
As for fin toe-in? Well that's another option that might help you turn better on the wave face, but with the possible downside of other handling issues and downsides when planing out or when hoping to jump.
But if you do have lots of time, then why not try these different tuning things?
I'd just add it's key here to realise when you've sucked up the marketing bull**** of one or two failed brands - or to see when you jumped down a rabbit hole and lost the great feeling of just going windsurfing. I guarantee your session will not get any better because you added one degree of toe in.
