^^^^ So then please explain why all the Quatro/Goya guys don't look slow n sh!t with no toe.......?
I can cherry pick some vid too if you like
Dude - have you not been reading this thread - THEY ARE RUNNING TOE !!! at least in all the custom boards that Braw , Levi , sail ....!!!! what other quatro guys you talking about ... ? theres a post earlier I mentioned LEvi / braw etc - and referenced them running TOE , but using symm fins - but extremely refined g10 fins - maybe 6-7mm thick -
And also - whose said symm / no toe is not fast ? .... no one has said that .... maybe even bottom turns (victor) if you use amazing technique - BUT - you to get the same feeling of acceleration in the turn like TOED / ASSY is harder .... and if you do - its like throwing 3 bulleyes in a row technique wise ... -
I think the post from MASTHEAD speaks volumes - BUT HEY - according to you/other cynics on here its all BS / EGO crap / NERD central / selling product / we'd all be sooner tinkering with fins on the beach than sailing ! -
Ive ridden a sup with straight boxes - and the performance was night and day when I managed to plug in some fins with built in TOE ...
Btw - Im pretty sure Bernd would have been using the flikka custom assy fronts theyve been making for years now ...
Ive come to the conclusion here - the cynics here maybe are 'stuck' in drawing intermediate lines on the face (going back to my surfing comment earlier how a progressive surfer draws speed vs beginner / intermediate ) , and literally 'sail' down the line , not powering up rails enough ,bodywieght largely over the board at all times .... and again - if the likes if victor still use stock set-ups - its because all the trick moves are marginally easier (guess why - because the fins grip less and project less) - but I dont think any of the naysayers here are in that category ? banging out wave shakas and takas and the like that lend to straight fronts ?
Btw Mark - How do you like the way Jaegar sails ? - incidently with **** loads of TOE and CANT .... sorry to 'cherry pick' one of the best waveriders in the world - and what he prefers ....
I think you guys (anti toe crowd ) .... have lost the debate here .... tbh ....
Select to expand quoteAlexF said..Select to expand quote Select to expand quoteI got an answer from the Goya/Quatro guys regarding toe in:Select to expand quote Select to expand quote Select to expand quoteALEX, GERMANY MAR 22, 2023Select to expand quoteWhat do you think about toe-in on the sidefin boxes? Pros and Cons, and why you put zero toe-in in your boards, at least in my C3 98 and Nitro 106.Select to expand quoteWould you recommend some 3 degree K4 asymetric sidefins in the Nitro to enhance turning or would this just kill performance?Select to expand quoteOr is toe-in in your bords not needed because the Goya (and Quatro) boards have rather smallish sidefins, and it\'s just a feature for bigger sidefins to enhance turning?Select to expand quote Select to expand quote Select to expand quoteAloha Alex,Select to expand quoteThank you for reaching over.Select to expand quoteWe have been playing with toed-in fins, and nobody in our team liked them for windsurfing so far, not even Kai who prefers larger side fins more surf oriented.Select to expand quote Select to expand quoteLet me know if anything else.Select to expand quote Select to expand quoteAll the best!Select to expand quote Select to expand quote Select to expand quote
Select to expand quoteI'm confused.
Think I'll try some Ezzy k4s in my Pyramid anyway because I'm not thrilled with the way it bottom turns with the stock fins.. I much prefer my Cube off the bottom. Having said that, I've only sailed the Pyramid three times, having come from sailing nothing but Quads for the last seven years. The k4s are cheap so it's worth a try. Problem is getting some in Australia. The size I need are all sold out.
Select to expand quotestonny said..I'm confused.
Think I'll try some Ezzy k4s in my Pyramid anyway because I'm not thrilled with the way it bottom turns with the stock fins.. I much prefer my Cube off the bottom. Having said that, I've only sailed the Pyramid three times, having come from sailing nothing but Quads for the last seven years. The k4s are cheap so it's worth a try. Problem is getting some in Australia. The size I need are all sold out.
Ive tried pyramid with 2 and 3 deg k4's , 10cms .... worked good .... I don't even ever take out a production board these days without swapping out - as I know it will sail like #%^t
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
^^^^ So then please explain why all the Quatro/Goya guys don't look slow n sh!t with no toe.......?
I can cherry pick some vid too if you like
Very interesting on the k4 site where they publish measured fin toe of production boards that there is a measured trend from the manufacturers listed away from toe in.
pretty much inline with Alex's email response that said they tried toe in, no one liked it. Including Kai.
That s true MB run parallel side fins with more rake We had the same question couple y ago The answer we got was quite different than the one mentioned above They said we make production wave boards to cover as many wave sailors as many cond and that make sense for me . They promote their production boards.
One thing that many do not take into account is that the number of people who are practicing WSF is declining fast imagine those who are into waveriding The price for a production waveboard with plastic inserts from china has reached 3000 E !!!!
Go with some very good for ex fin innovations proved to work well to a board company or a fin company Do you think they will create new code items and they will invest money to sell few boards to few wavesailors We know they wont and we are aware of how different boards fins they use for themselves and people around.
it doesn't cost anything to adjust the angle of a box when installing it so I don't get your logic.
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
Dude - have you not been reading this thread - THEY ARE RUNNING TOE !!! at least in all the custom boards that Braw , Levi , sail ....!!!! what other quatro guys you talking about ... ? theres a post earlier I mentioned LEvi / braw etc - and referenced them running TOE , but using symm fins - but extremely refined g10 fins - maybe 6-7mm thick -
And also - whose said symm / no toe is not fast ? .... no one has said that .... maybe even bottom turns (victor) if you use amazing technique - BUT - you to get the same feeling of acceleration in the turn like TOED / ASSY is harder .... and if you do - its like throwing 3 bulleyes in a row technique wise ... -
I think the post from MASTHEAD speaks volumes - BUT HEY - according to you/other cynics on here its all BS / EGO crap / NERD central / selling product / we'd all be sooner tinkering with fins on the beach than sailing ! -
Ive ridden a sup with straight boxes - and the performance was night and day when I managed to plug in some fins with built in TOE ...
Btw - Im pretty sure Bernd would have been using the flikka custom assy fronts theyve been making for years now ...
Seems you haven't.
So I'll cut n paste it from Alex' post to help you out.
"I got an answer from the Goya/Quatro guys regarding toe in:
ALEX, GERMANY MAR 22, 2023
What do you think about toe-in on the sidefin boxes? Pros and Cons, and why you put zero toe-in in your boards, at least in my C3 98 and Nitro 106.
Would you recommend some 3 degree K4 asymetric sidefins in the Nitro to enhance turning or would this just kill performance?
Or is toe-in in your bords not needed because the Goya (and Quatro) boards have rather smallish sidefins, and it\'s just a feature for bigger sidefins to enhance turning?
Aloha Alex,
Thank you for reaching over.
We have been playing with toed-in fins, and nobody in our team liked them for windsurfing so far, not even Kai who prefers larger side fins more surf oriented.
Let me know if anything else.
All the best!"
So 'breezer, believe the ads, believe Bourke, or believe Quatro whatever but a bloke jsut brought in the best SUP he's ever used and it has wayyyy less toe than every other.
My quad has a toe thing that I'd rather not disclose but its antithesis of Bouke's stuff.
My FSW has different (thruster) toe to the quad waveboard.
People win comps on no-toe boards.
Your believing in absolutes is just silly.
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
check out this vid .... cape verde .... single fin ...... vs toed quad fin
-
If you don't believe in TOE - then the epitomy of drag free riding at speed .... would be .... a single fin ! (you havnt even got any of them minging side fins to add drag for all that speed IN A STRAIGHT LINE ) .... yet check that video !
Angulo ( world class legend / not faulting him at all ) - everytime he lays the board on rail - you see the boardspeed drop by half .... look at 1.24 for instance - super walling section - everytime the board lays over - the 'drag' on rail just kills the bottom turn .....
Look at Bernd - with Toed front fins on his quad - everytime he lays on rail - the board gets drive and speed and whip - back up the face .... (2.21 and many more examples ) - the toed fins are ADDING .... DRIVE and SPEED in the bottom turn .... If you have never felt this on a windsurfer - you know the feeling instantly - as when the rail and TOED front fin works together in a pefect laid radius - it wants to drive a super whippy bottom turn sucking your eyeballs out ....
This was figured out years ago in surfing ... there's the 'intermediate' line ... where you 'wiggle' down the line surfing 'horizontally' keeping your wgt over your board thinking your getting speed just by trimming in that wave power zone , or there's the progressive surfing / 'pro' line , where you put it on rail TO generate your speed - using the toe of the front fin .... and the rail of your board with body lean ....
Ok Sorry seabreezer you normally say stuff I agree with, but I'm calling BS on the quad tow in.
I'm not anti tow in on thrusters, yes it allows better turns.
But I am anti tow in on quad front fins, I can see you don't understand that there is a difference underwater on how thrusters work together and how quads work together. Towing a front quad fin in will cause it to "fight" against the rear fin on the same side when the board is banked over as the two fins are so close and both on different angles. On thrusters there is different fin spacing and when banked over there is less centre fin in the water and a different interaction between the two.
17 years ago when I was shaping and making boards I did extensive testing for months on fin angles for quads, comparing two identical boards with different fin angles both asymmetrical and symmetrical sailing them back to back.
After my testing I know parallel fins on quads turn better than towed in fronts.
The video you put up is not just about performance of single vs quad, there are so many other variables in the difference of the two boards, rocker, vee, rail shape, that you can't use this as evidence. Unless you actually personally measured his fin angles before he went out, this evidence is just hearsay we don't know who is using what exact set up just watching a video. Also just because someone says or posts such n such is using tow in fins it's still just hearsay. My concern is you are advising miss information based on videos, hearsay and just trying it out on one board with no control boards to compare against.
Fin set ups on quads and thrusters is like comparing apples and oranges, they both need separate threads.
Select to expand quote
Seems you haven't.
So I'll cut n paste it from Alex' post to help you out.
"I got an answer from the Goya/Quatro guys regarding toe in:
ALEX, GERMANY MAR 22, 2023
What do you think about toe-in on the sidefin boxes? Pros and Cons, and why you put zero toe-in in your boards, at least in my C3 98 and Nitro 106.
Would you recommend some 3 degree K4 asymetric sidefins in the Nitro to enhance turning or would this just kill performance?
Or is toe-in in your bords not needed because the Goya (and Quatro) boards have rather smallish sidefins, and it\'s just a feature for bigger sidefins to enhance turning?
Aloha Alex,
Thank you for reaching over.
We have been playing with toed-in fins, and nobody in our team liked them for windsurfing so far, not even Kai who prefers larger side fins more surf oriented.
Let me know if anything else.
All the best!"
Do you seriously think that the people of Quatro are going to tell you that they put the boxes straight and they know that they are worse? What do you expect them to say? Do they make production boards and could they do better?
Their custom are one of the best...personalized always better.
^^ohh so now a major manufacturer lies to a customer on email and then make all the customs different?
Is that your assertion?
Isn't it far more likely that Qatro just answered Alex and honestly said they don't like toe in?
Select to expand quotestonny said..
Plus Bernd is a little bit younger than Josh.
.
I thought the same thing...and a big difference in weight too...I remember kauli and dunky surfing the difference was beastly...much respect angulo...polakov in single....uf......he was from another planet
Select to expand quotestonny said..I'm confused.
Think I'll try some Ezzy k4s in my Pyramid anyway because I'm not thrilled with the way it bottom turns with the stock fins.. I much prefer my Cube off the bottom. Having said that, I've only sailed the Pyramid three times, having come from sailing nothing but Quads for the last seven years. The k4s are cheap so it's worth a try. Problem is getting some in Australia. The size I need are all sold out.
they are two different boards... are you comparing the 2 in the same volume?
What year is your pyramid and liters? what do you weigh? do you sail in strong wind? Are you normally in on shore condition?
Select to expand quotesanti4 said..
Seems you haven't.
So I'll cut n paste it from Alex' post to help you out.
"I got an answer from the Goya/Quatro guys regarding toe in:
ALEX, GERMANY MAR 22, 2023
What do you think about toe-in on the sidefin boxes? Pros and Cons, and why you put zero toe-in in your boards, at least in my C3 98 and Nitro 106.
Would you recommend some 3 degree K4 asymetric sidefins in the Nitro to enhance turning or would this just kill performance?
Or is toe-in in your bords not needed because the Goya (and Quatro) boards have rather smallish sidefins, and it\'s just a feature for bigger sidefins to enhance turning?
Aloha Alex,
Thank you for reaching over.
We have been playing with toed-in fins, and nobody in our team liked them for windsurfing so far, not even Kai who prefers larger side fins more surf oriented.
Let me know if anything else.
All the best!"
Do you seriously think that the people of Quatro are going to tell you that they put the boxes straight and they know that they are worse? What do you expect them to say? Do they make production boards and could they do better?
Their custom are one of the best...personalized always better.
You got your answer. Rather than accuse them of lying maybe you should change your position.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
it doesn't cost anything to adjust the angle of a box when installing it so I don't get your logic.
I am afraid it does If you go for boxes more than 1o you have to go assy and then which toe cant and then with more rake for driven out turns or less rake for pivot , thin profile for less drag or thicker for more aoa , stiff or soft for lighter riders and all these should work correctly with the hull rails and other parameters of the board and for all buyers and many conditions and then how many new items codes should be introduced And then guys who go more bump n jump will not be happy All in all it is an Holistic approach rather than just an angle.
but again. They are already doing that when developing symmetric fins. You are looking for excuses because the answer didn't fit your narrative.,
we also have plenty of evidence of brands testing assy fins. Fanatic, Goya, jp etc
pros talking about different foils
brands selling assy fins, tectonics, k4, flikka which they've tested.
Oh i see you are right . Its not that complicated it s just an angle Good night keep writing 
Select to expand quotesanti4 said..
Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?
A: Because the brands felt toe in didn't suit a broad enough range of conditions and in some cases their pro riders tested it and didn't like toed fins for windsurfing.
Here's Kai's personal board - above pic - you can clearly see the TOE against red parrallel line - (btw he doesn't like TOE - he only used the board as his preferred board best performer to go win the aloha classic that he really wants TO WIN above everything , so he chose that board with the ****ty performing TOED fronts - and got 3rd .... hmmmm
The 1st two pics is KT's board - again - a shed load of TOE - maybe 5 deg plus ... Kt's toe is extreme .... his front boxes were pointing to the nose apex like surfboards (and his !) .... If they don't use it and it doesn't work - why would he be trying his own personal customs 3 deg more than they have been putting in the last 10 years ?! ie taking it to even more extreme levels ..... if he is 'trying' it out for the 1st time - FAAAARK - he went all in on extremity - without all that data the last 10 years !
I have 3 ..... yes 3 Quatro customs - THEY ALL HAVE TOE ...... every custom Quatro the last 10 years - HAS HAS TOE ....
Other posters here have customs Goya and Quatro - again with TOE ,,,,,, so go figure
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
^^ohh so now a major manufacturer lies to a customer on email and then make all the customs different?
Is that your assertion?
Isn't it far more likely that Qatro just answered Alex and honestly said they don't like toe in?
tbh - I think Pascal has got confused there with TOE and ASSY - as the question was concerning both .... I think he meant - they have tried assy fins - and not liked .... BECAUSE ALL THEIR CUSTOMS HAVE TOE - EVEN Pascals PROBABLY ,.... sometimes wires get crossed - same way people confuse CANT with TOE .....
Select to expand quoteR1DER said..seabreezer said..
check out this vid .... cape verde .... single fin ...... vs toed quad fin
-
If you don't believe in TOE - then the epitomy of drag free riding at speed .... would be .... a single fin ! (you havnt even got any of them minging side fins to add drag for all that speed IN A STRAIGHT LINE ) .... yet check that video !
Angulo ( world class legend / not faulting him at all ) - everytime he lays the board on rail - you see the boardspeed drop by half .... look at 1.24 for instance - super walling section - everytime the board lays over - the 'drag' on rail just kills the bottom turn .....
Look at Bernd - with Toed front fins on his quad - everytime he lays on rail - the board gets drive and speed and whip - back up the face .... (2.21 and many more examples ) - the toed fins are ADDING .... DRIVE and SPEED in the bottom turn .... If you have never felt this on a windsurfer - you know the feeling instantly - as when the rail and TOED front fin works together in a pefect laid radius - it wants to drive a super whippy bottom turn sucking your eyeballs out ....
This was figured out years ago in surfing ... there's the 'intermediate' line ... where you 'wiggle' down the line surfing 'horizontally' keeping your wgt over your board thinking your getting speed just by trimming in that wave power zone , or there's the progressive surfing / 'pro' line , where you put it on rail TO generate your speed - using the toe of the front fin .... and the rail of your board with body lean ....
Ok Sorry seabreezer you normally say stuff I agree with, but I'm calling BS on the quad tow in.
I'm not anti tow in on thrusters, yes it allows better turns.
But I am anti tow in on quad front fins, I can see you don't understand that there is a difference underwater on how thrusters work together and how quads work together. Towing a front quad fin in will cause it to "fight" against the rear fin on the same side when the board is banked over as the two fins are so close and both on different angles. On thrusters there is different fin spacing and when banked over there is less centre fin in the water and a different interaction between the two.
17 years ago when I was shaping and making boards I did extensive testing for months on fin angles for quads, comparing two identical boards with different fin angles both asymmetrical and symmetrical sailing them back to back.
After my testing I know parallel fins on quads turn better than towed in fronts.
The video you put up is not just about performance of single vs quad, there are so many other variables in the difference of the two boards, rocker, vee, rail shape, that you can't use this as evidence. Unless you actually personally measured his fin angles before he went out, this evidence is just hearsay we don't know who is using what exact set up just watching a video. Also just because someone says or posts such n such is using tow in fins it's still just hearsay. My concern is you are advising miss information based on videos, hearsay and just trying it out on one board with no control boards to compare against.
Fin set ups on quads and thrusters is like comparing apples and oranges, they both need separate threads.
I think if there's enough spread between boxes - ASSY 's work as good IN QUAD as Tri/ THRUSTER - OLA also confirms this from his findings - mine also ..... my cluster is always 2/5 - 3 fingers gap between fronts and backs - and my rear boxes on all quads are around 130mm wide (vs rear boxes more out on rail ) - set up like that I have stress tested a quad with total 3deg on a a mast and half dream bomb like 16/17sec - glassy - flying as fast I have EVER gone into heavy bottom turns - and the quad was just UNFAULTING .... it handled the the speed AMAZINg - So don't agree at all quads don't like TOE'd fronts
I agree - on something like NANO , or PYRO , if the cluster is very close together - and the front boxes are lining up very close width wise with rears - aggressive TOE might complicate things ... In my 13yo sons nano - I will try a set of 1deg / 7's for him .... might work great - especially with the double concave in tail
Levi's latest board - fronts looked light TOE'd maybe around 1.5 to 2 deg (similar to my customs) ..... front boxes are pointing to edges of rail at maybe 20cm nose width ... (vs KT personal extreme boards pointing boxes to the nose apex)
Mark - you probably think and believe they are sailing production boards at hookipa with your thought processes / arguments - hey Levi is probably on a production CUBE with custom graphics ?! - it is literally straight out of that sphere of naivety .....
here you go Mark ..... look at the whole fin line of that top fin and where its pointing ..... hmmm
What about this one ? .... Rider mentioned we don't know what Bernd's riding .... pic looks pretty TOE'd to me , and RIDER - I would say Bernd Rodiger has been setting things alight riding wise - highlight reels huge smacks at hookipa some of the best little slices of action ever , amazing turns ... on a QUAD with Toed fronts - (and incidentally won Cape Verde same set up) ... so I think ...Rider ....a re-test of your hypothesis might be in order .....
