Forums > Windsurfing Wave sailing

nerds

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Created by nobbie > 9 months ago, 14 Dec 2008
NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
28 Dec 2008 1:09PM
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Interesting - 3 red thumbs but no arguments. <sigh>

I was just watching a program critical of religion - critical both pro and con.
An interesting point was made. A claim was made for the discovery of a gene for spiritualism. Everyone carries a copy of it but there are 2 versions distributed approximately 50/50 throughout the population. This appeals to me. I have long thought that some people have a sense of the numinous while others don't. Those that do will fall into religion, any religion and buy into its particular tenets like they were God's truth because indeed, that's what they believe they are. Others, have a lesser sense of the numinous and just see in religion a lot of hocus pocus and manipulation.

That doesn't imply anything about the existence of God but it implies a deep criticism of all established religions that purport to know the Truth.

It's comforting to me to see an explanation and a vindication of sorts for my own guess work. I think I can guess which version of the gene I carry.

Oh, it doesn't imply anything about wave sailing either.

Mark _australia
WA, 23447 posts
28 Dec 2008 3:22PM
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NotWal said...

Interesting - 3 red thumbs but no arguments. <sigh>



I just thought my work here was done

NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
28 Dec 2008 5:34PM
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qwerty said...

I'm going to release a line of "Satan Loves You" boards.

and for all the atheists, a line of "No one loves you" boards.



mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
28 Dec 2008 6:01PM
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NotWal said...

lalalamort said...

Greenroom said...

Spearsy said...

Greenroom said...

What makes you think you are right?


Common sense.

Common sense tells me that everything in the universe has a cause. Plants come from seeds. Birds hatch from eggs. Nothing in this world brings itself into being. If we trace everything in the universe back to its source, we find that there must be something that existed before anything else came to be. Something that gave rise to the whole chain of being.

Common sense also tells me that where there is design there must be a designer. Look at a sail. Could something so technical occur by chance? Of course not! And the universe is a cazillion times more complex than a sail! The design of the universe points to a Designer.

But then again thats my common sense not anyone elses.
Peace, love and groovy tunes




Then what created God. End of discussion.


I have difficulty imagining non-time. There is an argument that says time began with the big bang. I don't pretend to understand it but I think the argument stems from the notion that space/time is one entity and space has a geometry that is circular.

If there is such a thing as non-time then there is no such thing as time before the big bang. So there is no "before the big bang". Likewise, when you say "What created God?" you imply that there must have been something before God. I don't think that is necessarily so.

Common sense is deceptive. Before Galileo proved the case it was commonly believed that heavy things fell faster than light things. Common sense, informed by the experience of seeing feathers and ashes drifting slowly through the air while rocks and cannon balls plummeted past them, led to this belief. By dint of some rigorous experimentation Galileo proved that it wasn't their weight difference that accounted for their speed difference. Likewise common sense might lead you to believe that frogs croaking brings the rain, a belief held by some Amazonian Indians.

To say that the complexity of life and the cosmos is designed is an unsupportable tenet of faith unless your definition of design includes the arbitrary and accidental processes of evolution, and it doesn't seem to. It was William of Occam who pointed out that for a good theory one shouldn't draw on any more complication than the minimum necessary to make the theory work. Evolutionary theory requires nothing more than the known laws of nature. It is illogical to attribute the complexity of the natural world to a "Designer". It is fallacious to argue that natural complexity is evidence of design.


Science has trouble explaining time and really big or small things (quantum theory is just as screwed up as big bang theory or black hole theory). Doesn't mean we have to believe in fairy tail stories though does it? Rather it just means we haven't developed to a point in civilisation yet where we can explain everything

On the boards aside from being down right ugly (though the creola and sumo are alright and graphics are ok) I wouldn't buy them on principal alone with him forcing his beliefs on customers. So the guy went through some bad times (by his own doing) and found the solution in god, doesn't mean the rest of us need to jump off that bridge too.

Mark _australia
WA, 23447 posts
28 Dec 2008 6:45PM
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Interesting that Nobbie was more than willing to start this thread having a crack at Josh Angulo .... but as soon as the intelligentisia step in with some real discussion about the existence or otherwise of a God, he changes the title to "nerds"

I guess we may disregard his opinion
Well done Nobbie.... not.

greenleader
QLD, 5283 posts
28 Dec 2008 11:59PM
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twas a good experiment on the original poster who now fears reprisal from god and repents with the fear of god in his loins!

i know i would be really scared!

NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
29 Dec 2008 12:39PM
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greenleader said...

twas a good experiment on the original poster who now fears reprisal from god and repents with the fear of god in his loins!

i know i would be really scared!


ummm.... not if he read the arguments.

surfinchick
251 posts
29 Dec 2008 1:08PM
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Ha...Love this thread.

Love your mind NotWal....particularly when you talk dirty!!

NotWal said...
It was William of Occam who pointed out that for a good theory one shouldn't draw on any more complication than the minimum necessary to make the theory work. Evolutionary theory requires nothing more than the known laws of nature. It is illogical to attribute the complexity of the natural world to a "Designer". It is fallacious to argue that natural complexity is evidence of design.


Happy Elmomas

king of the point
WA, 1836 posts
29 Dec 2008 3:35PM
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But there is a GOD

Scotty Mac
SA, 2060 posts
29 Dec 2008 5:14PM
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Sticky finger on your keyboard langy?

king of the point
WA, 1836 posts
29 Dec 2008 3:48PM
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Change your avator ,that poor dog

Scotty Mac
SA, 2060 posts
29 Dec 2008 5:19PM
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no wind in gero today?

king of the point
WA, 1836 posts
29 Dec 2008 3:52PM
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nerd bite

king of the point
WA, 1836 posts
29 Dec 2008 3:56PM
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tick tok tick tok tick tok tick tok tick tok tick tok ... wacking a can down very soon.

There s always wind but it ant always 6 foot.... oh well ......
good xxxxxmmmmaaaassss. hope yr well.....like that spider bite 10 days to that.

You be off it ha

Yer sticky bored fingers..............

just about got bed sores to day .....................

very very smooth glass cut backs l under the bowl.The last couple of days after the crowds sailed them selves out and headed home. ,Its been linking from way out the back with the full tides. lIke plodding around getting your waves as the sun goes down .........as for to day hot for the first time all year ......air con on looks windy .......hope its not.....just got the call ...its in again

The young guns are ripping into it double forwards, huge backies,big round houses and dropping into the pit bacwards and doing a sail spin .......goyatos fully planing good to see .....no nerdy action going down, oh oh insaying that thres a few usual euro nerd moves........but hey iim an old school nerd. Them little highs and fronts down south and cyclone up north seen to be pushing the swell through, .....see you soon

kodyn
WA, 65 posts
29 Dec 2008 5:56PM
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OI KING,,,,,

you didnt ask to use that pic of me wife....

Ill let ya off this time

The Grinch
WA, 733 posts
29 Dec 2008 11:57PM
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Greenroom said...

Spearsy said...

Greenroom said...

What makes you think you are right?


Common sense.

Common sense tells me that everything in the universe has a cause. Plants come from seeds. Birds hatch from eggs. Nothing in this world brings itself into being. If we trace everything in the universe back to its source, we find that there must be something that existed before anything else came to be. Something that gave rise to the whole chain of being.

Common sense also tells me that where there is design there must be a designer. Look at a sail. Could something so technical occur by chance? Of course not! And the universe is a cazillion times more complex than a sail! The design of the universe points to a Designer.

But then again thats my common sense not anyone elses.
Peace, love and groovy tunes




Yes indeed, that makes so much sense (???? :() )
Who's the designer? God?
Where did he come from? Or did he just come about by chance?

There could be a God designer tho, that would follow the commom sense theory.

Are Angulo boards any good?


shear tip
NSW, 1125 posts
30 Dec 2008 8:41AM
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kodyn said...

you didnt ask to use that pic of me wife....


Ouch, what did she do to her thumb?!?!

pingu
TAS, 40 posts
30 Dec 2008 11:39AM
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I categorize myself as someone who doubts their belief or doubts their disbelief, I think it depends on the day or astrology or something. Faith or beliefs are such powerful things it’s a struggle to thing of any great or terrible event in history that hasn’t been influenced one way or another. To just write it all off as a joke is to deny the epic and fantastic mess that is our past.

For me it seems a mistake to tie a creator to any theory or event, an all powerful being who is outside space and time shouldn’t need parlor tricks or science to aid his/her reign.

The grit in the Vaseline is when belief is used to justify some world destroying activity. Did the big guy tell Dubya to invade Iraq? Does George believe these are the end days? Now that scares the poop out of me. Despite this some of my greatest heroes are/were believers (Mandela, Einstein, King (the other one!)).

If Angulo wants to write things on his boards that’s OK with me, what would the other brands write?

We love advertising.

We love money

Robby Naish loves Robby Naish. (He is a God and shouldn’t suffer the self doubt the rest of us have to deal with.)

There is a Dog (now this should be distributed evenly between the brands by a magazine editor using a dart board)

Happy Elmomas

Al

Leech
WA, 1933 posts
30 Dec 2008 1:36PM
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lalalamort said...
Then what created God. End of discussion.


God's realm is beyond human understanding.

Earthly principles of birth and death, time and space don't apply in the heavenly realms.

Earth will come to an end but heaven and hell will never end. Eternity.

God is and was and will ever be.

I'm all for science. Exploration of the world around us is fascinating and useful.

But evolution is not science. There are no concrete facts, there are no repeatable experiments that can prove that the source of the variety of life on earth is due to evolution.

It takes faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in a perfect creator.

The choice is yours.

One offers hope, perfect justice and meaning for life. The other claims we are nothing more than animals with no purpose, worth or future.

Don't you think about the future? Doesn't something within tell you that you are not worthless? Don't you strive to find purpose? If you seek you will find.

mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
30 Dec 2008 3:44PM
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Leech said...

lalalamort said...
Then what created God. End of discussion.


But evolution is not science. There are no concrete facts, there are no repeatable experiments that can prove that the source of the variety of life on earth is due to evolution.


One offers hope, perfect justice and meaning for life. The other claims we are nothing more than animals with no purpose, worth or future.


Natural selection and alot of archaeology proves it. From my experience with science not many experiments are repeatable but its sound in theory.

You're second statement is the real reason everyone believes in god, simply people can not accept that we cease to exist. Think teenage suicide when there is no heaven just nothing, feeling something is better than not being. People need hope especially when life gets tough. Think of all the civilisations throughout history and it's the same common link- hundreds of gods but there has to be hope.

lalalamort
NSW, 160 posts
30 Dec 2008 5:40PM
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Leech said...

lalalamort said...
Then what created God. End of discussion.


God's realm is beyond human understanding.

Earthly principles of birth and death, time and space don't apply in the heavenly realms.

Earth will come to an end but heaven and hell will never end. Eternity.

God is and was and will ever be.

I'm all for science. Exploration of the world around us is fascinating and useful.

But evolution is not science. There are no concrete facts, there are no repeatable experiments that can prove that the source of the variety of life on earth is due to evolution.

It takes faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in a perfect creator.

The choice is yours.

One offers hope, perfect justice and meaning for life. The other claims we are nothing more than animals with no purpose, worth or future.

Don't you think about the future? Doesn't something within tell you that you are not worthless? Don't you strive to find purpose? If you seek you will find.


How lovely. Now tell me dear sir, what makes you think any of this is true?

lalalamort
NSW, 160 posts
30 Dec 2008 5:43PM
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and there are facts for evolution.....ahh sigh, why even bother....

Mark _australia
WA, 23447 posts
30 Dec 2008 3:49PM
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mkseven said...

Leech said...

lalalamort said...
Then what created God. End of discussion.


But evolution is not science. There are no concrete facts, there are no repeatable experiments that can prove that the source of the variety of life on earth is due to evolution.


One offers hope, perfect justice and meaning for life. The other claims we are nothing more than animals with no purpose, worth or future.


Natural selection and alot of archaeology proves it. From my experience with science not many experiments are repeatable but its sound in theory.






No it does not. There is no proof of one species turning into another. None. Natural selection does occur, like the predominantly white moths that over time turned into a predominantly black coloured species in the industrial revolution as black was favoured (white ones sat on black surfaces and got eaten). There is only variation within species and nothing proves one species can turn into another over time.

Read up on "irreducable complexity". The gist of that argument is that one mutation will not be favoured without another few mutations all occurring at the same time and to the same end.
Like let's say for example - eyes. An organism may mutate, producing an eyeball. Now that eyeball is not any good without the muscles to use it, the nerves to the brain and the processing centre in the brain. The eyeball mutation will not be favoured by natural selection as it is of no advantage. Thus it will not be passed on very long.

Not the best example, but read what some of those in the know have written on the subject.





Leech
WA, 1933 posts
30 Dec 2008 4:06PM
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mkseven said...

Leech said...

lalalamort said...
Then what created God. End of discussion.


But evolution is not science. There are no concrete facts, there are no repeatable experiments that can prove that the source of the variety of life on earth is due to evolution.


One offers hope, perfect justice and meaning for life. The other claims we are nothing more than animals with no purpose, worth or future.


Natural selection and alot of archaeology proves it. From my experience with science not many experiments are repeatable but its sound in theory.



Natural selection is very different from evolution from single-celled organisms to complex human beings. There is no proof for evolution. Just suggestion.

There is no proof for God. Only the Bible's claims, people's testimony and Jesus' claims about himself & God. Again, suggestion. You either accept it or you don't. And you've got the free will to choose.

mkseven said...
You're second statement is the real reason everyone believes in god, simply people can not accept that we cease to exist. Think teenage suicide when there is no heaven just nothing, feeling something is better than not being. People need hope especially when life gets tough. Think of all the civilisations throughout history and it's the same common link- hundreds of gods but there has to be hope.


That's a pretty broad statement.

Even if the promises of the afterlife were not given I would still follow Jesus. His teachings and the implications of his death and resurrection offer enough for this life alone. The fact that he offers a way for life to continue after death is a bonus (albeit a very generous one!)

Leech
WA, 1933 posts
30 Dec 2008 4:36PM
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lalalamort said...

and there are facts for evolution.....ahh sigh, why even bother....


Boring. Don't go away. Tell us the facts. Please.

mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
30 Dec 2008 10:28PM
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So natural selection and mutation is not the precursor to evolution, guess we'll just have to sit around for a million years to watch this experiment. But god's designs are perfect why would something like natural selection be required anyway.

Leech let's face it you probably sin just like all the other followers so none of us are going to heaven anyway.

I'm not anti-god, I do not believe or not believe as there is not enough evidence. My kids go to catholic school, I chose not to sway their beliefs either way it's a pity the church cannot see to do the same thing. If you believe fine just don't push your brand of BS on the rest of us.

Mark _australia
WA, 23447 posts
30 Dec 2008 9:41PM
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mkseven said...

If you believe fine just don't push your brand of BS on the rest of us.





So how does that work when evolution is taught as fact in schools when there is a mountain of proper verified scientific evidence that refutes it? Like leech said, both are systems of belief requiring faith in a very unproven concept.

mkseven
QLD, 2315 posts
30 Dec 2008 10:53PM
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There are mountains of contradiction with any Scientific Theory, it is mearly accepted as the most plausible to explain that situation.

1st day of Science degree... everything you are about to learn will be rubbish in 50 years (i've just destroyed my argument )

baldrick
QLD, 146 posts
30 Dec 2008 11:58PM
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I've got written on my house "the premier of Queensland loves me" after forking out tens of thousands of dollars in stamp duty! WTF!

Collection box stuff i guess, religion, politics, related.....hmmmmm!

NotWal
QLD, 7430 posts
31 Dec 2008 2:04AM
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Mark _australia said...

mkseven said...

Leech said...

lalalamort said...
Then what created God. End of discussion.


But evolution is not science. There are no concrete facts, there are no repeatable experiments that can prove that the source of the variety of life on earth is due to evolution.


One offers hope, perfect justice and meaning for life. The other claims we are nothing more than animals with no purpose, worth or future.


Natural selection and alot of archaeology proves it. From my experience with science not many experiments are repeatable but its sound in theory.






No it does not. There is no proof of one species turning into another. None. Natural selection does occur, like the predominantly white moths that over time turned into a predominantly black coloured species in the industrial revolution as black was favoured (white ones sat on black surfaces and got eaten). There is only variation within species and nothing proves one species can turn into another over time.

Read up on "irreducable complexity". The gist of that argument is that one mutation will not be favoured without another few mutations all occurring at the same time and to the same end.
Like let's say for example - eyes. An organism may mutate, producing an eyeball. Now that eyeball is not any good without the muscles to use it, the nerves to the brain and the processing centre in the brain. The eyeball mutation will not be favoured by natural selection as it is of no advantage. Thus it will not be passed on very long.

Not the best example, but read what some of those in the know have written on the subject.



Not true. There is ample proof of speciation like there is ample proof that smoking causes cancer and ddt weakens bird shells. Proof enough and of a standard that would get you a guilty verdict in a trial for a capital crime. The evidence is circumstantial and statistical but beyond REASONABLE doubt. Some with a barrow to push e.g. committed creationists do not accept it. The vast majority of not just the scientific community but the religious community as well accept the fact of speciation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation

The "irreducable complexability" notion is a nice idea that has been dismissed as pseudo science by the scientific community. It is widely cited by creationists as support for "intelligent design".
The argument can be characterised thus - Because we don't know the developmental history of a particular organ and we can't imagine how it could evolve incrementally then it didn't evolve. It must have been designed. It's widely discredited as an argument from ignorance.
As I understand it there is no example of "irreducible complexity" that can not be countered by an imaginative developmental scenario. I'm trying to imagine how an eyeball (your example) could develop. 1) Spot of light sensitive skin. 2) Blister cornea. 3) Skin manipulation muscles brought into play for focus. 4) Melanin variance controls brightness. There's a useful eye imagined in just 3 minutes. But how you ask, could the mammal eye develop? That's your homework for the new new year. Take as many developmental steps as you like. You have millions of years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Leech said...

One offers hope, perfect justice and meaning for life. The other claims we are nothing more than animals with no purpose, worth or future.


Without disputing the fact of that, (although I do), the consequence does not vitiate the cause.



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Forums > Windsurfing Wave sailing


"nerds" started by nobbie