Select to expand quotebuzzy said..
The National series is not just about Slalom. There is also free Race and Freestyle. I've seen some really high level freestylers in Victoriathat should be competing. Anyone that is highly competitive in GPS has the potential to enter Free Race, Slalom or both. Interesting post elsewhere, quoted below.
Interesting point with regard to the gps guys not being more forward in wanting to compete on a level playing field. Same place same conditions. With the sites this is all part of the fun but for me it certainly provokes thought about true ability. Not only, if your able to make your windsurfer perform to these nationally recognized "good numbers" why not race slalom, the ability is obviously there, or at least unbiased free race. I think some blokes put themselves on a pedestal because of there ranking on the gps sites and aren't prepared to put there money where there mouth is with equal advantage.. conditions and place.. Food for thought anyway, in my opinion there are some soft cocks who are sponsored as a slalom gps sailers based on their online presence but in the ring cant stack up against a guy who isn't getting the support but is a better sailor. Forced comparisons would be interesting. Obviously general comments not directed at anyone.
Obviously this quote is directed very specifically and is quite offensive. Where did it come from buzzy? (no attribution)
Whether a person want/is able to attend or not is a matter entirely up to them for whatever reasons they personally have.
Buzzy, I look forward to your personal report of the GI event. You are going I presume? (You don't work for an travel agent do you?)
It could be viewed as offensive, but also has a ring of truth about it in some instance. Can be found in the Tasmanian pages.
Definitely is a personal choice, all the banter is just to try and get some more interest from guys that may be able to slot the dates into their busy calendars this time of year. There's been public and private feedback from lots of guys that would love to go but just cant get away from work, study, family etc. or are just unable to afford it, and in some instances there are some badly injured, or are supporting family and friends that are ill.
Then there are the others that are just not up to the level of competition and like to give miss information about the conditions and accessibility of Green Island, or just complain! There has also been criticism of slalom events, which to some extent I can understand. What is disappointing is that a few Victorians don't seem to fully understand what Freerace is about. Maybe this is the fault of the clubs in Victoria that may not promote the competition side of the sport and assist it to grow. Freerace was born in Victoria by a Victorian, the same Victorian that has seen National events grow and then wither away as year after year the show travels from state to state and experiences little or no wind. This Victorian is now working his guts out to create the best National series ever held in Australia. Freerace shows the true all round sailing abilities of individual sailors held on level playing field. The difference between individual GPS 1hr and a National Freerace event is... a) Individual GPS 1hr targets locations and conditions, you are competing against the conditions, yourself and maybe a couple of others there on the day, not necessarily at the same time. b) Freerace puts those at the top of the GPS1hr and other disciplines,against each other at the same location at the exact same time. For me this is an absolute buzz and the most exciting and enjoyable competition sailing I have ever been involved in. There is nothing better than being on the water with a bunch of fast guys pushing themselves and their gear to the limit for a full hour(everyone is smiling) To give another quote, from a Victorian this time comparing GPS 1hr to Freerace(name withheld) "This is where the Bull S#@t stops"
Daffy I will gladly send you personal daily updates if you like
Just for the record I used 6.2 on 90 litre and 7.0 on 107 last year. No, I don't work for a travel agent, but I think I just paid their wages for a year. Cheers Kaleb
I am sure it will be an enjoyable event for those who can go. Good luck to them
But it seems to me to be offensive and counterproductive to be berating, belittling and downright insulting people if you are trying to promote an event to them. Surely you promote things by telling people how much they will enjoy it, the reasons why and by promoting the fun of it? Why would you set out to deliberately alienate potential participants?
Please note that atm there is only one club that is active in Victoria .As to free race. We do understand it very well it's just most are not interested........ Yet WV is yet to move to this sort of racing although we did do 1 hrs a round marks for the RPS comps many years ago.
For me the legs are just too short for any sort of difference between Slalom v speed sailors and most in Vic don't own a 8.5
yes Foxy popularised it but Mal Wright was the creator .
Good luck with it all and I do wish to attend but stirring the pot is unlikely to gain any extra friends to attend
If Buzzy is the type of character I would be greeted with in attending the GI Nationals sadly it is off my list of windsurfing achievements
I gave you green thumb Old Salty. Luck for you, you don't have to put up with him like I do!
It looks like your right there Kato. End of Stirring, hopefully you guys can make it next year.
Have been following this thread closely and can agree with both the for and against arguments to holding the event at GI. I could't afford the trip last year buat Just thought I would like to say though that like you Kato I too wasn't convinced about the FR idea at the beginning of last season. I assumed it was going to be too like slalom also with the only difference being that you gybe "inside the markers" instead of outside them.
However after being closely involved with 9 out of the 10 FR races that QLD ran through the windwanderers club over the summer I can say I am a convert. Quite a few of our FR races had runs up to 7km long!, nothing like slalom. (others were approx 2-4km box) Lots of strategy involved over the hour was required to work out what was the best option/path to follow ie longer runs through the middle of rougher water or shorter runs in slightly smoother waters also where to start the hour, upwind seemed to be the better option for most and choosing the right kit. Because we tried to stick to windy forecasts it meant I did most of my FR races on a 5.8 or smaller and even did one on my 60ltr speed board! Did have to use a 7.3 for the last one as that was in May at the very end of our season. Plan is to stop at the end of April for next season.
I believe that Ian Fox's idea with the FR concept is that the "course" or box be set at the discretion of the race coordinator on the day to a size that reflects the safety/ orientation/wind direction and strength of the particular location on the particular day. KA72's custom FR software will create a box from whatever the waypoints it is given.
I think the concept of the FreeRace is a good one. It sounds like a lot of fun and should be enjoyable by a wide range of sailors. However, it is very like the GPS-one hour, so it's a bit hard to see how it fits into the normal scene when the GPS teams are focused on the GPS disciplines. Maybe they can coexist if there is interest from clubs or shops to organise races. The advantage is that GPSTC sailors could count it towards that competition.
For an event like the National Slalom Championships, it seems like a good and logical fit. I will be interested to see how it goes this year.
Despite my tongue in cheek comment about 'no wind in Queensland' (sorry, that was my poor attempt at a stir - I thought the 
would make that fairly clear), I know that is not always the case and GI has a good reputation for nice trade winds. I actually think that makes it a great venue for such an event. It's really important to have such events somewhere with reliable, suitable wind and GI fit the bill there very well.
I'm sorry I can't make it.
Interesting to read all this, seemed to stirred a lot of crew up not sure why? What is pretty obvious from the reading is not too many people truly understand the concept of Freerace.
When you do, you will see its probably the simplest way to organise a windsurf event, simplest way to score/have positions etc, doesn't rely on lucky winds, has no direct link to Slalom, Course, Speed sailing, yet uses a bit of each of these. It also encourages Newbies to be involved with guru's as everyone also is trying just to compete with themselves as much as the next person. You can have Pro's and Newbies all on the same bit of water at the same time.
I've watched with interest the all so very serious world of GPS sailing from a distance for quite a while (Its not so serious with Windwanderers and KA72.com) but to me it never made any sense to have 'rankings' as such when no one was competing in the same conditions on the same day, crazy...you cant have someone sailing behind a rock concrete wall in 40knt winds on the perfect angle with not a ripple in the water hitting 40knts , then comparing it to someone sailing a choppy or open water spot in 20knt winds but peaking 30knts...to me the latter was a much better effort...not to mention can any of them keep it up for 60+ minutes straight?!
The other issue with it, it doesn't create an 'event' and if you want to promote or grow any sport or activity you need 'events' where lots of competitors are at, that the general public can see, it creates so much more, Defi Wind, Ledge to Lancelin (when its windy!) are good examples...Green Island last year went world wide with images that just promoted windsurfing at its very best....yep we don't all sail perfect conditions like that all the time...but if your going to sell a Volvo are you going to show lovely images of it driving through the Hills of Europe and then flying on a race track....OR stuck in a traffic jam on cold drizzly day.....
The other things that have worked well for FR is minimum wind...avoiding running events in light wind, = less gear requirements, I did the entire season on one FR board(not hard core Slalom) and sail (FR No Cam!) you don't need fancy race gear 
'date flexibility' is a key you need to keep your weekends free for it, be set up ready to act on the forecast, if its windy, it's green light and Go, you cant set a 'date' and turn up and expect the wind to blow...(unless you happen to live in an amazingly consistent place!) You only need 4 Hrs to prep, set up, run, sort and clean up a FR event.
Any way hope that explains Freerace a bit better, kind of just the same as Free sailing, but measuring your own performance on the day with the others that you were sailing with, for more info check out the website...http://www.freeracequeensland.com/ or the Face Book site www.facebook.com/freeraceq
Happy sailing, hope to some fellow vics
(ex!).. up at GI, last year was a lot of relaxed fun and great sailing so hoping for the same this year!
...but if your going to sell a Volvo are you going to show lovely images of it driving through the Hills of Europe and then flying on a race track....OR stuck in a traffic jam on cold drizzly day..... (ex!).. up at GI, last year was a lot of relaxed fun and great sailing so hoping for the same this year!
Yep all good points For sure GPS has been a lifeline for windsurfing.
The only thing I would add though is that nothing beats a big bunch of sailors on the water in one location, its great spectacle for all windsurfers and non windsurfers it looks great, be it speed/slalom/wave/freestyle....'sells the sport well'. 1300 people all sailing the GPS comps is great, but its events like the DEFI wind with 1000 on the water all at once that make that look 'real'...otherwise it would have been just 1000 people listed on a website..
There is a heap of GPS sailors out there, and FR is no threat or competition to any GPS comps, just enhances them and also encourages 'non GSP' sailors in.
There are still as many if not more 'Non GPS' sailors out there but perhaps deep down are interested at 'comparing' their sailing against others.
I can think of one guy in the series who fits this to a tee, he nearly knocked off Brad A (who was/is 1Hr GPS champ still?...sorry I'm not up to date) on 1hr Speed on a couple of occasions, pretty sure his name isn't on any GPS scoreboards, I could be wrong, but without a doubt he is fast especially in choppy water...
Hopefully FR can draw more of the 'freesailing' talent pool, and also the GPS talent pool and get the best out of both, The overall aim is to get as many people on the water at the same time and place together having fun, in a low key, low tech, non complex way, for a few events per season with aim to hopefully help build and promote the sport amongst current/past/new/potential windsurfers and the general public.
If you get a chance to do one (FR) give it a go, bet you will love it!
It's not difficult to organise a countdown on the beach and find two marks for figure of eight slalom. Stop watches are cheaper than GPS units. The reason events like the Lancelin Ocean Classic draw a crowd is because the spectators can see who is winning. Not even the competitors in a free race know how they are going until their tracks are downloaded. There is simply nothing more exciting for the participants as well as spectators than having a clump of sailors converging on a gybe mark at high speed- it's fantastic! You will find out right then and there how you went on that gybe or how fast you went on the next leg. There seem to be proponents at the moment of a competition format which actually eliminates aspects like gybing, tactics, starts, windshifts, pumping onto the plane. I submit that these are all essential skills in our sport and deserving of recognition. Every sport involving mobility you can think of has traditional racing (you can even have a walking race!). It's fundamental.
Wow that conversation took a turn...
Hats off to the organisers for getting such an amazing event organised in what is increasingly difficult times, but...
I think the most important thing is to make any event accessible, both in location and financially. Putting ideal sailing conditions ahead of these considerations is counter-productive. Aspiring to make it perpetual is even riskier. IMHO I think a perpetual national event risks being less popular over the years rather than more. Just look at Sandy Point Speed Week and Speed Fortnight. I'd also guess that if an event like the Ledge to Lancelin where held in a remote location rather than two hours comfortable drive from Perth it wouldn't be anywhere near as popular.
Another consideration is encouraging young sailors into racing. Again, the best way to do this is to make it accessible.
All the best for the event and really - I wish I could go.
I have never heard of Freerace before reading this thread so excuse my ignorance, so am I correct in assuming that the results and racing are based on the divisions that are used in the GPSTC?
Buzzy, If I were a smart a..e I could say something like " no Victorians are going to GI as we have to keep the country running while you Taswegians bludge their time away on Windsurfing holidays" but of course I would never say that....
Select to expand quoteJman said...
I have never heard of Freerace before reading this thread so excuse my ignorance, so am I correct in assuming that the results and racing are based on the divisions that are used in the GPSTC?
no not really,
it is not based on the divisions in the gpstc at all. that's a bit of a misconstrued idea floating around.
the only similarity with the gpstc is that people use a gps and it has a time limit of 1 hour. that could of course be any time limit the organisers deem suitable. doesn't need to be an hour. Other MAJOR difference is the area you can sail in is limited to a defined area or box. you can sail anywhere within that area though. in qld the guys running freerace have been holding events at the lake where the edge of the lake defines the area. in open ocean places the set virtual points that mark out the extents of the "box". if you sail outside of the box it doesn't count.
So the major difference it has with the gpstc is that everyone sails the same patch of water. Unlike in the gpstc where you sail where you want anywhere in Australia. with freerace you are competing directly against the person beside you. think of it as a virtual slalom course where yo ucan gybe wherever you like within the box.
if anything the dunkerbeck speed challenge is more similar to freerace than the gpstc is.
to be honest this is the defining difference the gpstc has. it allows people to sail where they want when they want. you are in reality competing against yourself while virtually sailing with others.
freerace or any organised event for that mater has you competing directly against others.
So in some way similar to what we do at Elwood anyway - strap on the gps, sail for as long as possible without stopping and more often than not pushing each other by racing side by side wondering when the first one will chicken out and turn out... just don't dare KGB :-)
^ yep that's pretty much it.
they use a specific software package to do all of the calcs and define the area.
but that's it in a nutshell. how fast are you within the area defined and the time limit set.
if you do that at green and beat everyone else you can put an Australian title in your cap.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said... Jman said...
I have never heard of Freerace before reading this thread so excuse my ignorance, so am I correct in assuming that the results and racing are based on the divisions that are used in the GPSTC?
no not really,
it is not based on the divisions in the gpstc at all. that's a bit of a misconstrued idea floating around.
the only similarity with the gpstc is that people use a gps and it has a time limit of 1 hour. that could of course be any time limit the organisers deem suitable. doesn't need to be an hour. Other MAJOR difference is the area you can sail in is limited to a defined area or box. you can sail anywhere within that area though. in qld the guys running freerace have been holding events at the lake where the edge of the lake defines the area. in open ocean places the set virtual points that mark out the extents of the "box". if you sail outside of the box it doesn't count.
So the major difference it has with the gpstc is that everyone sails the same patch of water. Unlike in the gpstc where you sail where you want anywhere in Australia. with freerace you are competing directly against the person beside you. think of it as a virtual slalom course where yo ucan gybe wherever you like within the box.
if anything the dunkerbeck speed challenge is more similar to freerace than the gpstc is.
to be honest this is the defining difference the gpstc has. it allows people to sail where they want when they want. you are in reality competing against yourself while virtually sailing with others.
freerace or any organised event for that mater has you competing directly against others.
Thanks for clearing that up sounds like an interesting concept.
As an added bonus you don't have to have people sitting in start boat all day or on the beach finishing etc. It is a great concept and puts those that take up the challenge on a level playing field. ie same water state and same wind. Whoever came up with the concept should be commended. Its also dam challenging to push yourself for an hour especially when you don't know exactly who is in the lead.
If its not your cuppa tea and you would rather sail for numbers and be a legend of the GPSTC or gpsss that's also great. windsurfing needs it all in my opinion. This just opens up another category for people to get their competitive juices pumping.
As far as having the nationals at green island goes. It's pretty much top 3 in my book of places to sail around the world. Consistent wind, warm clear water and friendly locals that will bend over backwards to help you.
If you are whinging about that it's probably because you are jealous you can't make it.
Hope to see some more of you Mexicans there. We might even show an afl game if you are lucky.
Leave the 8.5 at home.
Select to expand quotewindsufering said...
This is what windsurf racing has become, disgusting.
What exactly is disgusting?
Select to expand quoteDanP said... Jman said... geared4knots said..
Sometimes i wonder how spoiled some sailors are..
What is wrong with some sponsored sailors!!!
They save thousands,, yes thousands on there gear every year. Part of a sponsorship ,is to travel to national events?? Not just do a gps challenge locally and get good results. ( all disciplines included).
From what i understand the savings off gear helps sailors fund turning up to national events, promoting the sport and backing the Brands/products that gave them a good deal.
Dont be sponsored if you dont want to do this.!!
Perhaps Dealers/sponsors should look at sea breeze more regularly.
Too many guys getting good deals i think,.
Just an opinion
Fair enough but how many sponsored slalom sailors are there in Vic. I cant think of many.
If someone wants to sponsor me I'll go!!!
I'm cheaper to sponsor....
Smaller board mentioned earlier in post. But I'll have to add some sail repair tape for a couple of my sails, some carbon tape to fix my mast and a new cool T-Shirt; have to look the part.
Select to expand quoteShane said...
It's not difficult to organise a countdown on the beach and find two marks for figure of eight slalom. Stop watches are cheaper than GPS units. The reason events like the Lancelin Ocean Classic draw a crowd is because the spectators can see who is winning. Not even the competitors in a free race know how they are going until their tracks are downloaded. There is simply nothing more exciting for the participants as well as spectators than having a clump of sailors converging on a gybe mark at high speed- it's fantastic! You will find out right then and there how you went on that gybe or how fast you went on the next leg. There seem to be proponents at the moment of a competition format which actually eliminates aspects like gybing, tactics, starts, windshifts, pumping onto the plane. I submit that these are all essential skills in our sport and deserving of recognition. Every sport involving mobility you can think of has traditional racing (you can even have a walking race!). It's fundamental.
Ahh, the good old days! I remember when we used to race around courses on all points of sail on Raceboards (look up Wiki if you have never heard of them ) . Any wind condition from 1 knot to 25 knots. The old Peter Jackson races got over 600 sailors on the water in PP bay one year. Thats a fair bit of congestion and mayhem at the first mark!!
Sadly, it seems that racing, particularly the types of racing that put a premium on using these skills, is not in demand at all anymore. Witness the virtual disappearance of course racing (despite it being an Olympic sport!), the death of Formula Racing in Victoria and other states, and the virtual non existence of organised slalom racing anywhere in Australia!
But also witness the astounding growth and hold of GPS sailing both in Australia and Europe! I wonder if even the MDV would be getting as many entries of it was not for the advent of GPS sailing?
If anything can revive mass participation racing events in Australia, I am all for it! 
Of course, big money, non industry sponsors help a little bit!
(I have some old TV news video somewhere if one of those, probably the biggest. When I find it I will post it via youtube). It really is amazing in today's context!
The bic techno fleets are huge in Europe just like those fleet sizes you are talking about !
hey, its sad to hear no victorians are going to make the national slalom and gps free race at green Is.
in my opinion thats half of the top ten guys in the country that wont be there, as well as im not going
formula killed racing, whatever, its too expensive, and is not a complement of the gps,
gps free racing is the future, green Is is a poor location, but with some thought you could have a few big gps meets, sandy, lake george etc,
plenty of sailors are still competitive, but the current windsurfing classes, formula, one design, techno, dont appeal to many,
you have well over 500 solid gps sailors that would love to pay, recieve prizes and compete at good locations,
its definately time for a national gps association, .................................................and daffy should be the first president,.................... until he is impeached
Select to expand quoteMilsy said...
in my opinion thats half of the top ten guys in the country that wont be there
Unless they compete,we'll never really know!
Other than the Beacon race, which I think is awesome, I'd just be happy to race around a triangle course... if only there was an easy way to just throw a few markers out, convince a few people back on the beach to join in an informal race.... bragging rights as trophy....
It's hard enough getting a few people together for a normal session, let alone a race..... so a grass roots race I think is best.... spur of the moment....
Not hard to convince a few people if they see you and a few of your mates racing around some buoys for fun......
The minute you start going down the impotent road of insurance and risk... it kills it off.... making simple fun stuff complex is also another way to kill things....
Use the gear you have, keep it organic, keep it real - it works.
Just remember its windsurfing..... there is about ten of us......... the greater world don't care...... on the risk scale.... people don't even know windsurfing is still around....
Now to work out the buoy solution.................................?
