Great review Fangman and 100 % on easy use and rotation of cams. Yes I'm biased as when Bugs lived in NZ I had plenty custom sails from him.
Decrepit has been saying Bugs will make windsurf sails but was fully into Moths.
Just saw Bugs comment on a single cam sail.
Hmm, found this photo of a 92 first wave slalom 5.0m.
I used it in slalom racing on Maui.
Actually the first day I didn't do as well.
Bugs sorted some stiffer battens and transformed to be on pace with race sails.
Thank you Bugs 
No worries Greg, was a pleasure, very windy series that one!The old XTR bump and jump sails where nice to use.Often wonder what you're up too, one reason being the number plate on the work van!
Plenty of good times Bugs and classic number plate
Strange times with covid 19 and lockdowns eh.
Was out sailing mates cat almost 2 weeks ago and AC75 boats out. Light winds and we got buzzed by Team NZ 100m away-so impressive compared to TV.
Select to expand quoteMrFussy said..
First up was that 6.3m single cam sail in about 6-8kts breeze
I thought there was no marketing on these sails... 6.3 and 6-8 knots. I want a 8.5m to get going in 2 knots Select to expand quoteMrFussy said..
Next I wanted to test how stable the sail is fully loaded so went down to our local speed spot to sail with the crew. I think it was about 12-18 kts and plugged it onto a Carbon Art slalom board, normalish sort of thing not some wide boat. Sheeted on and took off, no pumping just go so at that point was thinking "this could be a handful!"
Not sure a 8+m would get me going in 12-18kts. You have something special to be powered up or thinking of being a handful in this light wind 
Oh boy, hear we go.Some numbers for you, in sailing Moths we get foiling in 6-8 kts, what we call marginal foiling conditions. The boats weigh in fully rigged at between 45-55kg (and getting heavier with some crap trends that are happening!), add a 80-85kg (depending on beer intake) 60yr old punter to the mix. Sail area 8.25m2 (max class rules) but now often only 7.6m2 due to trimming things down for top end speed, main foil area of between say 750-870cm2. Got that?. In 6-7kts wind with good sail trim you will hit 6 kts boat speed and you will fly. Now take a JP 78 slalom board stick an Axis 900 foil in it and that 6.3m sail and the same 60 yr old punter you have an overall much lighter set up with more foil grunt, and you can physically pump the rig to get foiling, same marginal foiling conditions as usual, basic out of your backside math's, all gear having similar levels of efficiency means things where fairly equal it happened. Once foiling apparent kicks in and it's happy days. I very much ponder the fact that the windfoil race dudes are using/needing 10m plus, to me that says something is very wrong.
Select to expand quoteMrFussy said..
Oh boy, hear we go...... I very much ponder the fact that the windfoil race dudes are using/needing 10m plus, to me that says something is very wrong.
Oh boy indeed ... we are going down the rabbit hole here ...
Select to expand quote515 said..
Just saw Bugs comment on a single cam sail.
Hmm, found this photo of a 92 first wave slalom 5.0m.
I used it in slalom racing on Maui.
Actually the first day I didn't do as well.
Bugs sorted some stiffer battens and transformed to be on pace with race sails.
Thank you Bugs
I owned a Hot Sails Maui single cam! a 5.0. I think it was the internal cam version and rotation/performance was ok. But again let's not going off a second rabbit hole? Rigging and rotation are really non issue with modern cam sails, especially so with low pressure cams ...
Single cams have never really gone away, they pop up here and there. Hot Sails Maui has been using a single cam with the SpeedFreak for a at least a couple of years now www.hotsailsmaui.com/tech/speedfreak/. Even more recent (2021 line up) is the F1e Wave Slalom 5.4 by Point-7. Targeted for Foil under 15 and fin 13 to 21 knots. I kind of regret not having ordered it although my Spy 5.4 is VERY good foiling and fantastic in B&J.
What are these "rabbit holes"we speak of, I for one for obvious reasons would be very interested in them. Nice photos of yet more sails of other makes beside the one being reviewed. I am sure they rotate like a top, 10 points to their group, little bit wrinkly though so minus 1.
So I've just done a quick rough check of sail weights, but didn't take them out of their bags, the Avalon 5.5, 4 cam's bag is possibly lighter, but wouldn't be much in it
Avalon 5.5 3.6Kg
Koncept 5.2 speed 5Kg
Koncept 5.7 speed 5.7 Kg
I had a sail with it yesterday in gusty conditions and found it very stable, no shifting of lines, between just hanging on and too light to waterstart.
Unfortunately it was a bit too choppy for my ability, to get any good speed.
Select to expand quoteMrFussy said..
I very much ponder the fact that the windfoil race dudes are using/needing 10m plus, to me that says something is very wrong.
Let us know how the rig goes racing against current 10+m sails.
Maybe i need a moth sail 8.25m on a foil to maximize light wind? Thoughts?
Select to expand quoteMrFussy said..
Oh boy, hear we go.Some numbers for you, in sailing Moths we get foiling in 6-8 kts, what we call marginal foiling conditions. The boats weigh in fully rigged at between 45-55kg (and getting heavier with some crap trends that are happening!), add a 80-85kg (depending on beer intake) 60yr old punter to the mix. Sail area 8.25m2 (max class rules) but now often only 7.6m2 due to trimming things down for top end speed, main foil area of between say 750-870cm2. Got that?. In 6-7kts wind with good sail trim you will hit 6 kts boat speed and you will fly. Now take a JP 78 slalom board stick an Axis 900 foil in it and that 6.3m sail and the same 60 yr old punter you have an overall much lighter set up with more foil grunt, and you can physically pump the rig to get foiling, same marginal foiling conditions as usual, basic out of your backside math's, all gear having similar levels of efficiency means things where fairly equal it happened. Once foiling apparent kicks in and it's happy days. I very much ponder the fact that the windfoil race dudes are using/needing 10m plus, to me that says something is very wrong.
What's wrong is sails have got bigger. Then we give them lots of twist so we can hang on to them.
odd really when a smaller sail with less twist is faster.
Select to expand quoteRob11 said.MrFussy said..
I very much ponder the fact that the windfoil race dudes are using/needing 10m plus, to me that says something is very wrong
Let us know how the rig goes racing against current 10+m sails.
Good luck with that but ... what 10+ sails? PWA foil sail limit is 9.0. Olympic foil is men 9.0, women 8.0. Formula Foil racing goes up to 12 (for fin) but even the 110+ Kg heavy weights like AA are using 10 at most.
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..Rob11 said.MrFussy said..
I very much ponder the fact that the windfoil race dudes are using/needing 10m plus, to me that says something is very wrong
Let us know how the rig goes racing against current 10+m sails.
Good luck with that but ... what 10+ sails? PWA foil sail limit is 9.0. Olympic foil is men 9.0, women 8.0. Formula Foil racing goes up to 12 (for fin) but even the 110+ Kg heavy weights like AA are using 10 at most.
In our part of the world we have open racing, no rules just try an go as fast as you can, R&D paradise.
Select to expand quoteRob11 said..MrFussy said..
I very much ponder the fact that the windfoil race dudes are using/needing 10m plus, to me that says something is very wrong.
Let us know how the rig goes racing against current 10+m sails.
Maybe i need a moth sail 8.25m on a foil to maximize light wind? Thoughts?
Won't need to be like a Moth sail, yes some shaping values will be the same in parts of the sail though, sections are sections and if something is required to do a job it must be there. The main problem with our current methods of madness to shape windsurf sails is that it is done with a lot of distortion, one of the main things being using less luff curve up top and excess down low, downhaul the snot out of it and you turn the sail inside out higher getting twist and jam the excess round back with cams down low and you get some forward shape, designers use varying combinations of luff load and seam shape to form that lower sail shape. fill the sail with a bunch of tube battens to stabilize the mess and hey presto off you go. I call it panelbeating as far as sailmaking goes. This is why the need for high luff tension, you have to stretch the sail into shape and often the setting range is minimal, either side of the design spot the sail is a dog, outhaul can be critical too. The approach I am taking is from a more traditional sailimaking point, just shape the sail the shape it needs to be and make shore the mast bend is pretty right, just the natural bend of the mast at the amount to make it stiff enough to stand the sail up, no shaping via luff round, downhaul tension is more moderate at the amount needed to prebend the mast and just lock in the designed shape. What this means then is that we can reintroduce more forward shape up the luff and design in the amount of twist needed (you can't put shape in forward effectively if you are sucking out the luff to create twist), the more shape there is in the entry the less twist is needed behind that point so the leach can be firmer. What then happens is that more of the sail is drawing properly, sail gets more efficient and can be smaller, with a better leading edge the sails stall less, point higher and run deeper, this has been the case with the Moth stuff and an area of continuing refinement. Windsurf sails will always be that bit flatter up top (and so the need for more twist to maintain correct entry angle) than rigs like Moths because they are hand held rigs (with a stayed rig you can cope with a bit more brute force and ignorance) so is a form that is easier to hang on to, but they can sure get a whole lot better yet, so we're getting stuck in and so far so good. The sails now have a far broader setting range so you can set them to suit foiling or slalom use, could be that the one design of race sail does it all, is starting to looking that way. Hope this makes some sense and adds up to Fangy's review, getting a bit stuffy down this rabbit hole so I'll head off now to Liptons for a spot of COVID sail testing.Cheers, Bugs
