PWA and GPS ?

I have the response from competitor there. Maciej Rutkowski.
He explained that nobody usually uses GPS on racing.
But he estimates max speed on this exactly run at around 32 knots on this chop...

"Maciek Rutkowski Nie mamy ale mo?emy mie? nikt nie zabrania, jest to po prostu kolejna rzecz ktora gdzie? Ci sie dynda gdzies przeszkadza czy cos wiec nikt w zawodach nie uzywa (na treningu jak najbardziej). W tak gestym chopie, bardzo watpie zeby ktos przekroczyl 34 wezly. Obstawialbym bardziej 32 na pierwszej prostej"

barely

If no one was wearing a GPS, any 'estimate' is pure speculation and likely to be WAAAAY off reality.

Not saying it was faster or slower. Could be either by a significant amount....

In this age of logging sports data on everything, I am surprised those competitors are not logging and analysing their races with GPS. And of course, they would be unlikely to want to share their data.

Let imagine how it may look in a few years from now.
Race starts.
Once the screen at one side appears table with all several competitors and showing exactly actual position and speed.The camera may focus on one or two but this way we could observe the position of everyone involved. Usually, we are interested in our favorite sailor, not the one in the front only.I think that individual GPS streaming and programs to display position are already in existence.Something like Dylan did for us to watch racing recently.

most of the pwa guys have gps watches, they just don't share their tracks.

Mostly used in training sessions and to choose gear.

Even PWA sometimes have problems with control their 5 m2 sails when wind gusts 40 knots !

Select to expand quote

sailquik said..

In this age of logging sports data on everything, I am surprised those competitors are not logging and analysing their races with GPS. And of course, they would be unlikely to want to share their data.

It would seem to be a great benefit if all the competitors tracks were available for review, but in isolation not so much because the goal is to beat the guy beside you, without his or her tracks you can't really review the race.

I have been thinking more about GPS logs for the entertainment of others then racers itself.
Every one of us wants to imagine himself on that PWA racing course.
But is not possible. So knowing what speed there are doing 2s, 5s and nautical mile we could estimate how far our skill is apart from theirs in similar conditions. If we know wind speed and chop size we possibly could recall ourselves sailing in most similar conditions.

I could already foresee one-day personal wind speed meters/ loggers to be invented.
Tiny, small devices installed on the top of the mast that could record wind speed and direction.Doesn't matter that this is not real wind speed but resultant of our speed and wind - still very interesting data mine. If we now add our wind readings to our speed graph sailing we could draw conclusion how well our gear perform at every aspect.
1. If sudden gust during bear off - did you use the lot - or wasted
2. During alpha - how well we exploit that wind power
3. If that is the hole in a wind that cripples our gybe or lack of our technique?
4. what could compare what angle to the wind we could achieve using combinations or sail setup and fins.4.For racing like sailing, we could calculate later what is the most effective angle to the wind to cross the distance upwind.

I can't wait for anemometer logger to be added to our GW-60 as extension/ option.
Maybe Locosys manufacturer could already be thought about Blue Tooth device installed on that mast to transmit wind data to GPS logger?Then after years of waiting we could eventually compare our sailing to others in very similar conditions. Accelerometer added as another sensor to our log give is an idea about wave/ chops - water condition to complete the picture. In fact, we don't need even everything on our wrist in the form of a watch. Any smartphone-size device could be safely hidden in the backpack or PFD and connected by Bluetooth to watch like display, wind sensors etc. The problem of the battery will be solved also and smartphone could instantly transmit data to land and viewers. So our PWA races could carry smartphones one day, equipped with one smart application.

french championship last week in marseille

https://livestream.com/accounts/13634278/events/7200087/videos/154225632

Select to expand quote

sick_em_rex said..

mathew said..
If you are a professional athlete, you dont want to give your competitors an advantage - if they had your logs and not vice versa, then they would have a competitive advantage.

In windsurfing, How??? No offence Matt, but you have access to Spotty's logs, why haven't you studied them to make you faster? Could it just be plain and simple that he is a better sailor??

The point of having measurable data, is to eliminate personal bias... use the data to help you a) decide on which aspect is your weakest, b) be able to do back-to-back comparison. The whole effort is so that you can determine if you are having a net-positive gain.

=> technology helps you analyse your weaknesses.

With two tracks, you can compare your around gybe marks -> if your track is faster over that length, you then go ahead and compare the start-gate timing -> if you are faster, you look elsewhere, etc... => you then go out and train on some other aspect which is slower.

[ no offence..? hmm... you really didn't think car-racing got faster by someone using magical pixie dust in the air intake... or that Olympic swimming gets faster because that thought positive thoughts? ... this isn't the dark ages of mystical dragons. ]

It could happen Andrew, but at the expense of the organizer, not the pwa. (same thing with the live by the way, it is not paid by the pwa)
I'm working on it for the New Cal event, might have found something not too $$$, just need to see with the techs at PWA to find out how to broadcast it.

On topic, I saw A2 use his gps one whole afternoon while deciding which mast to choose (including mismatching bottoms and tops) he'd go out, come back, check speed, de-rig, swap mast, go back, and this for hours..... amazing !!

Select to expand quote

seanhogan said..
It could happen Andrew, but at the expense of the organizer, not the pwa. (same thing with the live by the way, it is not paid by the pwa)
I'm working on it for the New Cal event, might have found something not too $$$, just need to see with the techs at PWA to find out how to broadcast it.

On topic, I saw A2 use his gps one whole afternoon while deciding which mast to choose (including mismatching bottoms and tops) he'd go out, come back, check speed, de-rig, swap mast, go back, and this for hours..... amazing !!

Good to hear that it may happen Sean. I guess it all comes down to sponsorship money.

I watched the New Cal. event live last year and really enjoyed it. One of the few events I have been able to follow. I spoke to Ben at Geraldton last year about the possibilities to enhance the telecasts and he pointed out that they did it on something of a shoestring budget. Technical enhancements would add a lot of personnel and expense to it that was just not available at the time. It could obviously be done far better, but finding and justifying the budget is the difficulty.

I am not surprised to hear that about A2. I watched at Luderitz as he spent quite some time rigging his sails on 3 or 4 different masts looking for something until he was satisfied. I have to admit that I was struggling to see the differences he was looking for. He is not on top of the game by chance. He obviously puts an extraordinary amount of work into it, and it obviously pays dividends.

Select to expand quote

Ian K said..

Macroscien said..
I have the response from competitor there. Maciej Rutkowski.
He explained that nobody usually uses GPS on racing.
But he estimates max speed on this exactly run at around 32 knots on this chop...

If the estimate was from a competitor I'd think it's pretty accurate, plus or minus a knot or so, as long as he takes a gps out in chop every now and then to stay calibrated. Chop is a good speed reference. It's on flat water where you can be way out. A bit like driving on a freeway . You think you're still doing 110 but then look down at the speedo to find it's closer to 130.

Yes, that might only be the case if the sailor in question actually did use a GPS regularly, which he seemed to say he did not, in which case it would be a pure guess and highly unreliable.

I like the freeway analogy Ian, but of course that never happens to me!!

Select to expand quote

Macroscien said..

sailquik said..

Ian K said..

Macroscien said..
I have the response from competitor there. Maciej Rutkowski.
He explained that nobody usually uses GPS on racing.
But he estimates max speed on this exactly run at around 32 knots on this chop...

If the estimate was from a competitor I'd think it's pretty accurate, plus or minus a knot or so, as long as he takes a gps out in chop every now and then to stay calibrated. Chop is a good speed reference. It's on flat water where you can be way out. A bit like driving on a freeway . You think you're still doing 110 but then look down at the speedo to find it's closer to 130.

Yes, that might only be the case if the sailor in question actually did use a GPS regularly, which he seemed to say he did not, in which case it would be a pure guess and highly unreliable.

I like the freeway analogy Ian, but of course that never happens to me!!

MR explain that he regularly use GPS during training, but not during races.

As to expenses and budget, I think that modern smartphone will be sufficient for PWA racing TV cast.
There are already plenty of applets that allow constant/ instant remote monitoring. In such case all investment organizers need to afford is set of local SIM card and plastic bags for smartphones for every competitor.
We obviously don't want to pay roaming costs and signal delay while sailors arrive from all over the world, different countries.

From my conversation with Ben, the greatest expense is for personnel. But they truly do it on a shoestring budget with two people. Even one extra person to manage the technology would break the budget.

And I suggest that even the use of phones, sim cards, an App and waterproof bags would take some expense and management.

Granted, the possible solutions are not too hard to imagine, and the possible enhancement of the telecasts would be great, but as said before, everything costs, and someone has to pay for it.

Select to expand quote

John340 said..The recent Raceboard Worlds on a Moreton Bay use a real time tracking system that worked really well

Very interesting! Does anyone know what the system was and who supplied and ran it?