Having the top 2 sailors results will not make the event more inclusive, if anything it will do the opposite. If slow guys are sailing on the same day as the fast ones they simply will not post. And when they do post on other days it will not count towards the team score anyway.
If you truly want to make it a team based challenge then the rules / scoring must change to reflect this.
Some options may be
- more members sailing for results to count on any day
- each member only able to contribute once per month, with all members having to contribute.
- all members must contribute for the month with the placings determined by an average of all results for the month per category.
As you may have gathered I'm all for the TEAM component of this challenge - it is unique, and to make the potential modifications will just water down the concept - in my opinion.
Dam71 the prob is some teams only have 2 members some 5+.
The average of 5 members is not the same as for 2 members.
This is the problem at the moment it not a level playing field.
That’s the Idea of picking the best 2 in each division it's a fairer system.
ta vando
quote:
Originally posted by DAM71
Having the top 2 sailors results will not make the event more inclusive, if anything it will do the opposite. If slow guys are sailing on the same day as the fast ones they simply will not post. And when they do post on other days it will not count towards the team score anyway.
If you truly want to make it a team based challenge then the rules / scoring must change to reflect this.
Some options may be
- more members sailing for results to count on any day
- each member only able to contribute once per month, with all members having to contribute.
- all members must contribute for the month with the placings determined by an average of all results for the month per category.
As you may have gathered I'm all for the TEAM component of this challenge - it is unique, and to make the potential modifications will just water down the concept - in my opinion.
Just to clarify, the proposed system doesn't pick the best two sailors and use them, it picks the best two times for each category.
So if someone is really good at speed but doesn't go for very long, then only their speed might get counted. And if you have a couple of slow guys who rack up the k's then their numbers will still count towards the final score.
It sounds more complicated than it is, and I think it will help to get more people posting. The worst that can happen with a slower guy is that their time won't be counted.
At the moment the worst that can happen is a slow guy will bring the team average down, and I know that some people (one of my team mates told me) aren't posting even though they sailed on that day, because they don't want to drop the average.
Shotgun an email out to all competitors asking the question.
Give 2 weeks for replies.
Make a decision based on majoritory rule.
so what we are saying is that TEAMSEQ actually won the may part of the challenge??????
quote:
Originally posted by Gestalt
so what we are saying is that TEAMSEQ actually won the may part of the challenge??????
yes, i am bored. got a holiday soon, hope it howls....
oh yeah.....
nah nah vando, we won......[}:)] (_o_)
Hi vando - i agree that the playing field is not level, but that is sport in general, trying to level it for all is impossible, and somebody will always be disadvantaged. So far to date the teams with 2 participants are having more trouble posting a result due to the difficulties in sailing on the same day.
So why not have all sailors results from all sessions count towards a team average. Award bonus points for the ultimate leader in each category if you like. At least we will see a true team score. As nebbian is now aware of team competitors are not posting for fear of reducing a teams average for a particular day.
Make the average over the month and if there was a time window say 48 hours for them to post their data from the date they recorded it, and there was a stipulation that all members will be counted (thus no posting = max points per category, them it is in the best interest for each competitor to log their data - as you cannot predict if you will get out again in the month.
Nebbian - i realise that the best 2 results per category are selected - generally however the best sailors are doing those times across the board. Because all apart from the total distance, the categories require good speed and gybing skills. I don't know too many guys who will go out to sail as far as they can and not try to stay involved with their mates. Take wello last weekend - you were there i recognised your board from seabreeze, all the sailors were within a couple of hundred metres of each other.
The only people that i would see that oppose a full team involvement are those that have very good sailors and ordinary ones. If people truly are in this for the enjoyment then why not make all results count? Or are our competitive sides taking over and it is win at all costs[}:)]
I have a problem with requiring whole team participation. For our team anyway, we have one member who works up North, and being here when there's wind is just a matter of luck. We have another member with heavy work and family commitments, in fact he's yet to manage a session with us.
So if this became a requirement there'd be a temptation for teams to exclude people who couldn't get to the beach regularly.
At least with best 2 results, every body has a chance to contribute somewhere. And not feel they're letting the team down because they couldn't get to the beach.
Geez, who wants to buy this?
www.fusedworld.com/
I think the spirit of the challenge was to be as inclusive as possible.
Last time we sailed with Hardie on the strip (No constant wind, just a few good gusty periods), we had to share a GPS. My session was between gusts and I only planed a couple of times, and did not get a good chance to post a decent speed. Richi grabbed the GPS took off and about 2 mins later the gust of the day came through and he clocked the fastest speed for the day.
If you check our results, all those that sailed entered their results. We should have pulled mine as it would have boosted us well up the positions, but in keeping with the team spirit, they all went in.
K.I.S.S should still be the mantra. If you want to "skew" your results to benefit your team, that's fine, but the karma payback could be a big one.
My 2 cents
Can't fault anything you say westozwind, but is that a vote for no change, 2 best results, or penalising teams who don't show a full compliment?
No change.
We entered into this "team" challenge, agreeing to the comp rules.
When you started the team, you got your mates to get involved.
Hardie should be congratulated for the idea cause it's not for sheep stations.
Should have had a rule:-
Go sailing with your mates, use a GPS and get the team out there. Log everyone's results and have fun.
Teams that are having a serious stab at the comp have members that are very competent speed sailors. If they are being really serious, then using everyone's results proves they are the best team.
As mentioned before, karma can bite you on the @rse, it aint fun.
I honestly thought the event was running as best 2 scores from each division. Probably was confused by reading Vando's original suggestion and assumed it was going to be in the rules because it naturally made sense.
Although this is a fun event, why not establish inclusive rules that cater for both recreational and the "more serious" ie interstate challenges?
It would be a shame to waste the opportunity for improvement. Especially when there is talk of growing the format beyond aus...
Top 2 results sounds good to me, if I am one of the top two, great, if not I am not affecting the score and will try harder next time to get in the top two. The fact that if I go out in marginal conditions and get low times won't affect team members who may have had a better day elsewhere is a good aspect of this method. Basically what I hope to get out of this challenge is increased speed and ability and to share it with other sailors, oh yeah and a chance to win goodies just for registering.
The only downside I can see to the top 2 idea is that it could advantage the bigger teams. They can split the divisions up amongst themselves, whereas the 2 people teams have to do all divisions. Probably this won't be a big advantage. Not enough to stop us giving it a try.
I've done a quick check,
here's what I've found, (some posts are a bit ambiguous hence the question marks.
If I've given you a "?" please qualify, yes or no.
nebs yes
gestalt no?
mkseven no?
firebob yes
qildsalty yes
Dam71 no
bender ?
tim90 yes
mikey100 yes.
Goo Screw yes.
slowboat yes.
decrepit yes.
25 yes.
hardie yes?
mineral yes.
vando yes?
wineman?
westozwind no
fitz66 yes.
that's 11 definite yeses 3 yes?
2 definite nos 2 no?
seems like the ayes have it to me.
quote:
Originally posted by vando
So what the verdict Hardie nay or yay to top 2 speed/dist in each div.
quote:
Originally posted by hardie
To date still less than 20 out of 127 competitors have commented. Lets wait for more comments, it won't start till 1st of July anyway. But it is the strongest argument so far.
YES lets give it a try. As this is a non sheep stations comp anyway, we need to be open to all ideas.
I haven't read all of this post (sorry) but i'm just about to post my scores for a session, where 2 team mates have already posted. My scores will actually lower our average so it doesn't make a lot of sense inputting them.
Is this what the topic of this post is trying to address?
quote:
Originally posted by Crash Landing
I haven't read all of this post (sorry) but i'm just about to post my scores for a session, where 2 team mates have already posted. My scores will actually lower our average so it doesn't make a lot of sense inputting them.
Is this what the topic of this post is trying to address?
quote:
Originally posted by Crash Landing
I haven't read all of this post (sorry) but i'm just about to post my scores for a session, where 2 team mates have already posted. My scores will actually lower our average so it doesn't make a lot of sense inputting them.
Is this what the topic of this post is trying to address?
Hey guys,
Great competition. It would help to have come wind though
. I think it is a great idea and would work well. It will give more team competition and will allow everyone to post without thinking it will affect the team.
Good winds to everyone.
Cheers,
Carl Macdonald.
quote:
Originally posted by decrepit
[
mkseven no?
I like the whole team thing. If ya sail you post.Its also another reason to go for a sail and there,s not a sheep station in sight....Now who,s got all my wind?? i,m sick of talking about it.I Want to sail NOW!
This has been set up as a team event, so i agree that if you sail you post and the whole teams scores count towards the average. If you only want to have the best 2 change the team numbers to 2 otherwise you will have people not contributing to the team, so why have them in your team. My 2 bobs worth.
Consider this scenario:
Sailors 1 and 2 have a good session, clock up some reasonable speeds, and good distance.
Sailor 3 goes out at his local. He is testing fins and booms, so only sails for 10 km, but gets a good alpha.
Under the current system, sailor 3 will be hesitant to post because by doing so he will drag his team down. It would be better for him not to post at all.
Under the proposed new system, there's never any doubt: you're always better off by posting your times. It might improve your teams score, or it might not, but it will never hurt your teams score.
