Following on from this thread
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28813&whichpage=2 , some people have proposed that we only count the top two numbers in any category for any day.
So for example if two sailors are really quick but don't post a good distance, but you and your mate sail for ages but don't post a quick time, then the website will select the best two scores, average them, and use those numbers for scoring.
I believe that this will help to even out the competition by giving the larger teams a bit more of a chance against the smaller teams. It will also mean that people won't feel that they're disadvantaging their team by posting low scores.
The only problem I can see is that a slow sailor might feel that s/he isn't making a difference to the team, but I think this is better than feeling that they're a disadvantage.
What are your thoughts?
Well, I suffer same issue as Firiebob does, my team member is self employed and getting run in on the same day is proving to be a difficult issue.(plus the bugger of a weather pattern over here the last month or so)However, as I, and my yet to post a time teammate
(bloody hope he is heaps faster than me
) are not going to be up there kicking and gouging with the top crew, so to us dusntmatta
I like to just view all to see how everybody is going/improving.
Soo think I will do same as Fireibob and start posting anyway, as long as it doesn't spoil it for the people who are competing rigorously.
Maybe what could be added is a system to show individual PB's and as a new time is posted, the system recognises its an improvement on the last, and it highlights after with PB.
Nebs, don't even know if your programing can add that bit, and if it would be of any value to most. Just a thought
in my view,
taking only the 2 fastest times really takes away from what the comp was about. we may as well just have teams of 2.
the idea of everyone posting regardless was a good one. those that are sailing wave / uncambered sails & wave boards are at a massive dissadvantage. that is the real point here. not whether person a is better or worse than person b. if the comp goes down the track of the best 2 i think those on wave and freeride gear will soon find that their times will never be counted and they will loose interest.
so here are some ideas....
1. have classes like the WQ speed comps. it really complicates the whole data base somewhat but means that sailor A will have his times count. also means hat people don't have to buy new gear to become competitive.
2. add bonus points for achieving persnal bests, best in class etc.
3. rather than averaging distance travelled. add it up. bigger teams have an advantage then.
i am sure there are more ideas too.
edit :- adding in classes would still be team based. all points scored in each class would be added to give team results.
here are some ideas for possible classes....
Class S - Under 56 cm wide (Speed dedicated)
Class F - 56-65 cm (freeride)
Class W - 66-85 cm (widestyle)
Class R - 86cm+ (racing formula )
Class L long board ( over 320 c/board)
also could have,
wave sail class,
wave board class,
While we're on scoring, if a team posts 100k's sailed then it will score a number 1 for that team because it's a great effort.
So a team might think that that's all they have to do. Same goes with 40 knots top 2sec peak.
So where's the incentive to really push the boundaries? Why shouldn't someone try for 200km sailed? Or 50 knots? 
If we really wanted to get tecknikal (Thanks Mineral 
) then we'd organise all scores into a bell curve, take the standard deviation of the scores and then use that to score a team.
Trouble with that is, it's not verifiable. It needs to be obvious how the scoring system works, so there is never any question of tampering with it.
For example, Queensland is winning June's leaderboard at the moment. Yesterday the Moreton Bay Mob (Qld) were tied with the Swan River Mob (WA).
Neither of them posted scores today, but suddenly Moreton Bay mob are ahead. Why 
I can't figure it out... I hope the scoring system is still working properly 
Edit: It's OK, a team who was splitting them on the "Rankings" pages deleted their scores.
Guys keep it simple.
Yes 2 best suits the top guys, it lets other team riders focus on other disciplines/use whatever gear they want. But it does hurt the teams with a more freeride focus.
AH the joys of team sports
Keep the debate going, Gestalt makes some good points, and Vando's original idea of the best two is also very valid.
I think what we have now, overall works!
I also think that somehow, Ben's brilliance of somehow extracting something out of the data we already have, is there a way of doing something here?
Board Classes sounds interesting to me. We already have age classes.
is there a way to have multiple rankings? With different sorts of leader boards, including individual leaderboards? Hope it's not all too much work for you Ben?
It's impossible to have one system that makes everyone happy. But if we can use multiple systems that make most happy, and it's not too hard for Ben to do, then let's try.
Still wanna hear from as many people in the comp as possible, we were gonna have a review after 2 months, so this is the beginning of the review, therefore we need lots of input.
Keep it simple Nebs, there's never going to be a dead set fair system.
I'm all for the new idea, but then it doesn't effect me as I'm in a two man team. We just couldn't get any more punters.
As for clases depending on gear etc, it'll just get too complicated, and getting away from the original idea. As for me, I only have one supercross board and one sail (true), but I like to see how I go against the guys with all the gear and better conditions, see if I can stick it to them
If everyone from the big teams have a say, it can't be any fairer than that, as they'll have more votes. As it should be, as it effects them the most, also don't count my vote, as it doesn't effect us
Coz I think participation and PB's is important for individual's, then If the data base can create a rankings system for individuals, that we eventually have an honour board for, that has year to year honours, eg.
2007 Cat "2 sec" "Female Master" "Board Class" "name", "result/data"
2008 Cat "Alpha" "Male Open" "Board Class" "name" "Result/Data"
2009 Cat "Distance" Female Grand Master" "Board Class", "name", "result/data"
Keep the Team Challenge pretty much as is for this year, and next year allow either "divisions" or Teams to lodge an "A and B" team?
Hey Gestalt,
I notice you didn't include a weight class fatty!!
Actually seeing that I'm a skinny little runt on a freestyle board with wave sails I think I deserve a class of my own. Oh! and I'm a senior citizen too.
Hi Nebbian and Gestalt, I like the top two idea. It has many good things as well as a few bad. Ie if you have a bad day you won't load up your gps under the current scheme because you don't want to bring your fellow team mates down. THe good things are I doubt big teams will have all their sailors sailing the same days all the time, so throughout the year we will all have a chance to make a contribution. A lot of people say keep it simple and that is definately the way to go. Look forward to the next windy day to post a time.
Coming from a long background in team sport i really enjoyed the idea of a team based challenge. Lets face it windsurfing is generally a solo thing. I saw this as a way to improve my current enjoyment of the sport.
The GPS challenge in its current format is fine - apart from what i see as the team component. Now some teams have embraced this SEQ for example with their effort in may, and i believe the mandurah mob followed suit organising a team day. I know with BCB we had our greates numbers down over the weekend. If this were any other team sport you could not just ask particular members to not participate or be counted when the rest of the team may be red hot. So why not embrace the concept of the team and count the whole team.
Instead of needing a minimum of 2 members to post make it that 75% of the team must post the same date to count. I realise that this makes people have to organise themselves - but if you want to compete then that's what it takes, it really is not that hard. Teams should be a minimum with exceptions possible for outlying areas such as FNQ and the likes.
If teams do not want to compete this way or individuals are unable to make such a commitment then have a social division - with more novel divisions such as age, weight and beauty. These guys can post whenever they like.
Now if this competition really takes off then allocate divisions like any other sport such as div 1, 2, 3 and so on. This allows the top guns to face off against each other and so on down the line.
Unfortunately in its current form i see participants taking advantage of posting only their top 2 sailors.
One final comment. This comp has sponsors. I'm sure that they do not want to be associated with a potential scenario that could become sour. Currently i know that the prizes are awarded randomly. But with the right nurturing this comp could evolve to be much more than it is - especially given real speeds alpha racing software. You could possibly have virtual slalom races across the country - who knows? What i am suggesting is that if competitors are tempted to stretch the rules then change the rules so they cant be stretched.
Regarding a data base for individuals - are you going close to stepping on the toes of GPS Speed Surfing? Guys and girls are able to post there individually.
Keep posting your views, all excellent points so far, how to accommodate everything is the hard bit.
Just for the record we are sensitive about GPSSS, and have been in communication with them about all that we are doing and what we propose to do, and so far their feedback has been positive and encouraging.
I think we may be heading away from the K.I.S.S. principles that were the foundations of the GPS Challenge and why it was created from the beggining.
If the top guns want to be really full on then yes they can play with us, but in line with our main agenda of getting crew together to make sailboarding more fun while having some friendly competition.
This i feel will make sure we dont step on the toes of "GPSSS"
Thats my 2cents. I will upshut now
Cheers
P.S I would love some bloody wind
Yes the more I think about it, the more I want to leave it as is. However, just that some guys aren't posting coz they feel they are letting their faster mates down, is an issue, we at least need to air ideas.
We have created a website and a data base for Australia, and we have built relationships so we have already achieved something.
If some fine tuning can be done that most agree with then why not. However, unless we can come up with at least a 2/3's majority, then not worth it. I think we should have a vote before we change anything.
Coz the data base exists, possibilities arise....................
Up to now i thought the rule was already "average of two best for each category". IMO this is the best way to count the scores for teams in the existing categories, as it prevents team members from being excluded from posting their times (if slower), as well as allowing them to focus on certain categories (distance/2secmax only).
Also, i think it might be interesting to note that the first 10 sesions had the following numbers of people post; 2/2, 2/4, 2/6, 2/7, 2/6, 4/7, 3/7, 6/6, 2/5, 2/14.(average of 2.7 per session)
jeez, the figures that tim90 puts up definately show something is not as it should be. definatley need to stop stacking i think.
on the classes idea. they certainly won't stop things being simple. as it's the database that works it all out. all you do is just lodge times as done already. it will also entice those on slow wave and freeride gear to lodge times as they'll be competing against others on similar gear.
however, after seeing that most teams only lodged 2 times i think that dam71 may be on the money. force at least 75% of sailors to contribute for it to count. it is a team event after all.
Like the idea of best 2- means members of a team can contribute in the area they are strongest....2 may go for the 'speed- bursts' while others may try for the 'distance' points. All working as a team, but using different talents, and the different gear they have.
I think top 2 in each catagory is the go and then if there is a few around there could be a couple going for 2 sec and ave,another couple could be doing Alpha and hour and there could be the marathon anchor man(or woman) nocking up the km's.
Most of us have jobs and its hard to get more than 2 people out on a given day. I thought that was part of it? Make it practical?
Making 75% of team members sail to validate a session would exclude a good portion of the teams. Might give the dole bludgers and retirees a chance though
Reasons for best 2 scores is:
1) It doesn't favour smaller teams
2) It doesn't discourage the slower guys on the day to post
3) Nobody knows who is going to be fastest in all disciplines (well chosen BTW), until the data has been posted. Creates thrill and excitement etc and motivates guys to have a go (eg at least for the 1 hour, total distance, or alpha rankings)
4) The bigger the team the better the chances, which encourages team playing!
Reasons against:
1) A few guys might think that their slower team members ~might~ be upset at not feeling included. hmmmm anybody asked them?
As someone who was not in the fastest 2 in some divisions, I'D BE PROUD OF MY TEAMMATES FOR STEPPING UP AND DELIVERING THE GOODS. And I might not have posted FOR THE GOOD OF THE TEAM.
If you average all the scores, the smaller teams are statistically favoured. So its a bit flawed. If you take the best 2 scores from each discipline, it favours bigger teams. Isn't what this is about??? Encouraging team spirit?
Makes sense to me slowboat.
I vote we give this method a go and see how it plays.
It's also got the advantage of keeping it simple, and it's not a great deviation from what we're already doing.
I think fine tuning at this stage is much better than a major change.
Ok sounds like some consensus is building, but still wanna hear from more people!!!!!!!
Stinkboat, Nebbs and others have made some good points here
The whole idea originally was that just 2 had to sail so that teams of 'normally' empolyed workers (up the workers) were not disadvantaged
Averaging all who sail on a particular day may in effect lead to 'high grading' of results and lesser particpation.
Let's try the new format from July 1 - for the new financial year!
This way the big teams can go for a range of category bests on a given day if they have good numbers of members on the water.
The whole of objective of the GPS TC was encouraging particpation and this suggested rule modification is not inconsistent with that.
We can always review it after 2 months!
Wow, what a fantastic set of replies!
Some very well thought out comments here. I'm happy to set up the code so that it flips over to the "top 2 in any category" system on July 1. I think we've got a consensus? How do you feel about this Hardie?
quote:
Originally posted by nebbian
Wow, what a fantastic set of replies!
Some very well thought out comments here. I'm happy to set up the code so that it flips over to the "top 2 in any category" system on July 1. I think we've got a consensus? How do you feel about this Hardie?
Someone brought up in an earlier post about having groups A and B.
One way of splitting people into these groups is to have limits on each div 2sec, Average speed, Alpha, NM, ect.
For example max 2sec limit for group B is 35knots. So unless you get more than 35knots you stay in group B.
If you get more you automatically go into Group A and stay in that div for the rest of the comp. This can be done for the other divisions as well.
Just an Idea vando
quote:
Originally posted by elmo
It'll Fade the curtains
I like vando's idea of A & B divs, as some of us are not ever gonna make 35 knots.
also, it's winter, no wind (other than 35-45 knots this last week) & we haven't caught up with a lot of fellow sailors we only know by first name - who I'm sure would want to 'havago' in a team of sorts.
plus - have to find someone with a GPS.
participation at all levels is what it's about
