I got into trouble because I didn't sail 5 mile much and didn't realise how much the water moved out of there on a big day.
It didn't help that I was horribly overpowered on the 4.6m and 50ltre board and was just hunting for flatter water.
I usually head slowly upwind into any areas known to shallow ( e.g Cockies side) and step off to check.
I was a bit slack in this video as you could see the bottom changes and I'd never had a nasty stack hitting bottom.
The problem is the lake is so large and pretty featureless. It's ok when the water is clear and you can see bottom changes but difficult when it's murky.
I was super careful this year but it was probably safer in some respects as it was a mud landing.
Just don't end up under the sail. I almost drowned running out of breath and taking in a lung full of water. It takes a lot longer getting out from under a sail trying to move in mud.
Lucky it was a little sail with a short boom.
Select to expand quotesboardcrazy said..
I got into trouble because I didn't sail 5 mile much and didn't realise how much the water moved out of there on a big day.
It didn't help that I was horribly overpowered on the 4.6m and 50ltre board and was just hunting for flatter water.
I usually head slowly upwind into any areas known to shallow ( e.g Cockies side) and step off to check.
I was a bit slack in this video as you could see the bottom changes and I'd never had a nasty stack hitting bottom.
The problem is the lake is so large and pretty featureless. It's ok when the water is clear and you can see bottom changes but difficult when it's murky.
I was super careful this year but it was probably safer in some respects as it was a mud landing.
Just don't end up under the sail. I almost drowned running out of breath and taking in a lung full of water. It takes a lot longer getting out from under a sail trying to move in mud.
Lucky it was a little sail with a short boom.
Yes, disorientation on a big body of water is a major problem for me too. For some flat water spots here in SA, even if you could live there for 2 months each season, there is still a good chance you will get it wrong.
Yes, I've had a sail press me down too. It's very panicky. Thanks for the video. I'm yet to determine the time distances "in real life", but I'll check your 30 second suggestion in the playback tool to see how bad the scan dots dance around. It may need a filter for scan dots that far out from the user.
Stansbury, SA has clear water in summer. There is no need for GNDALERT at this spot - "eyes, brain" etc. But on a SSE, when the water goes over the bar, the sun is low in the sky, and the wind fills in 25kts, the last patch of smooth becomes a golden mirror. It's the best conditions for me. But there is no way of knowing if it's 10cm or 50cm. So I make decision: I'm either going to post a 31kt on GPSTC, or a 35. if I get it wrong, then I stack it in a mine field of razor fish. There is one guy that sails there with neck problems. He sails in deep water, because he personally rates the risk of sailing next to, or on the sandbar too high.
Will probably see you next summer at LG, if work doesn't get in the way again. Hopefully I'll have a working prototype of this device for you to look at.
Other than that, looks like not much interest in this device on SB ???. But the main point for me was to find out if anyone has this idea and is working on it. At the moment, it looks like it's just me. For any readers new to this thread, if you are working on a similar problem, PM me. I'm happy to collaborate, and share my knowledge with anyone that is willing to listen.
Progressing onto hardware. Build 1 (prototype), with this design running on 3.3V (the development setup above was 5V). Good test tonight. Everything is talking to each other. The audio is crisp and loud through the ear phones. I wanted this design to have speakers. However, a water proof speaker solution is proving too hard, as I can't source a water proof miniature speaker with a low enough frequency response for my voice (the alert tones are fine). So, ear phones it is for the time being. I'll have to redesign the printed circuit board to move a few things around. The connectors are too big, and I can't plug in the USB connector into the ESP32 (the system's charging pathway), because these connectors are in the way. So, will redesign with smaller connectors. The circular connector is dual function: Charging and audio out. The switch to the left is the battery isolation switch.
Only ever dabbled in speed sailing. I'd injured myself skiffle boarding and was wary of shallow water from then on. Speed sailing is still an unlimited class. Most speedy sports develop rules for competitor safety. You're all running top fuel! Take a hint from Formula 1.
My suggestion is a 50cm swing fin category. I would have been a taker. 50cm is mostly deep enough to crash in. Not as many obstacles drift aground in 50cm. And I think there's a loose 50cm international rule to minimise ground effect.
You won't be as fast, but you'll get back upwind for another run in half the time. Don't worry, it wouldn't be long before someone broke 40 knots in the 50cm category. Add it to GPSTC, you'll get takers.
I was imagining one that pivots out of the way if you want to detect the bottom gently.Like a centreboard on a lightweight Sharpie. The details don't matter. Just need a design rule that precludes ridiculously shallow water. And a class with a min fin length would do that. 50cm might be a bit much. Had a very nice 46cm once that would go really nicely with 7.0 in a good breeze. That's a foot and a half if you need a round number. Weedies? Vertical depth? Leave you to the details. Just a wild suggestion.
Ok. Yes, a class would be interesting. As you said - like motor racing - so all participants have the same equipment ?. However, many GPSTC members sail in deep water (whether they like it or not), and post. So, joining GPSTC should not hold you back if you want to participant. Just sail within your limits. The comp is about having fun, team work, having a beer afterwards with your team mates. I have a friend on my team who has neck issues. We will both go to one of our flat water spots here in SA during summer. I will sail "nap of the earth" over the sand bar and razor fishes, and he will sail out 100m down wind in the 0.5 - 1.0m water depths. He simply can't afford a stack, and won't accept the risk. But he still has fun. We both do.
We already have one-design or same-bodyweight or same-gender or ... pick your poison. Having yet another rule, will do absolutely nothing.
People want to go fast. Its that simple. If you didn't want to go fast then dont go there.
By the way, you can crash at any time. It is quite normal for people to kick their fin on a beach start. Injury it isn't limited to the extreme end of the sport. If you dont like to hurt yourself, either HTFU or dont sail.
[ If you are crashing on your first run WTF ? ... how in the world did you survive the drive from home to the water? Just dont be stupid on your first run out; talk to the people whom sail there; dont slice your foot open on the fin; dont sail when there is lightening bolts hitting the water; learn to swim 100m; ...... this thread appears to be 'solutions looking for a problem'. ]
Select to expand quotemathew said..
People want to go fast. Its that simple. If you didn't want to go fast then dont go there.
Yes, HTFU I suppose. It's not as simple as going fast. You need a risk/consequence factor thrown in for excitement. What would the excitement of speed sailing be if there was no risk of hitting bottom and going over the bars? Plenty of speed thrills doing a downwinder in the swell off Wollongong, not even getting 30 knots on the gps.
Select to expand quotemathew said..
We already have one-design or same-bodyweight or same-gender or ... pick your poison. Having yet another rule, will do absolutely nothing.
People want to go fast. Its that simple. If you didn't want to go fast then dont go there.
By the way, you can crash at any time. It is quite normal for people to kick their fin on a beach start. Injury it isn't limited to the extreme end of the sport. If you dont like to hurt yourself, either HTFU or dont sail.
[ If you are crashing on your first run WTF ? ... how in the world did you survive the drive from home to the water? Just dont be stupid on your first run out; talk to the people whom sail there; dont slice your foot open on the fin; dont sail when there is lightening bolts hitting the water; learn to swim 100m; ...... this thread appears to be 'solutions looking for a problem'. ]
No need to be snotty mate.
Select to expand quotejn1 said..mathew said..
We already have one-design or same-bodyweight or same-gender or ... pick your poison. Having yet another rule, will do absolutely nothing.
People want to go fast. Its that simple. If you didn't want to go fast then dont go there.
By the way, you can crash at any time. It is quite normal for people to kick their fin on a beach start. Injury it isn't limited to the extreme end of the sport. If you dont like to hurt yourself, either HTFU or dont sail.
[ If you are crashing on your first run WTF ? ... how in the world did you survive the drive from home to the water? Just dont be stupid on your first run out; talk to the people whom sail there; dont slice your foot open on the fin; dont sail when there is lightening bolts hitting the water; learn to swim 100m; ...... this thread appears to be 'solutions looking for a problem'. ]
No need to be snotty mate.
Yes there is. [ The idea of an alert system, isn't what I was being critical of. ] If someone chooses to jump out of a plane without a parachute, more fool them... just dont ask other people to pickup the pieces.
Sailing at speed in an area that you aren't familiar with, needs to be called out because it will be other sailors that need to come to the rescue.... you ruin your own day, but also ruin their day for being a nutbag.
vs... chat with others, takes a few runs to become familiar with the place, wear a helmet, let others know you are sailing in that area, etc -> have a plan in place. That sailor is now being as safe as reasonably possible -> all of us would help out in a rescue.
[ The idea of an alert system is fine, I dont think it will be effective due to a number of reasons, but that shouldn't stop us/the-world from trying to make a safety device. My opinion shouldn't stop people trying - because being an armchair critic is easy, vs the complexity of making something for the real world. ]
Select to expand quotemathew said..
Yes there is. [ The idea of an alert system, isn't what I was being critical of. ] If someone chooses to jump out of a plane without a parachute, more fool them... just dont ask other people to pickup the pieces.
Sailing at speed in an area that you aren't familiar with, needs to be called out because it will be other sailors that need to come to the rescue.... you ruin your own day, but also ruin their day for being a nutbag.
vs... chat with others, takes a few runs to become familiar with the place, wear a helmet, let others know you are sailing in that area, etc -> have a plan in place. That sailor is now being as safe as reasonably possible -> all of us would help out in a rescue.
[ The idea of an alert system is fine, I dont think it will be effective due to a number of reasons, but that shouldn't stop us/the-world from trying to make a safety device. My opinion shouldn't stop people trying - because being an armchair critic is easy, vs the complexity of making something for the real world. ]
Ok, I think I understand what's going on here, and my idea seems to be bad timing (and totally unrelated). Everybody went to LG this year with the water level very low, despite me reporting it was sht with no weed in Jan. Effectively, a body of water a bit larger than a cricket field in Feb looking at the GPSTC tracks - half the size of Porter Lagoon (SA). Some of you have travelled 2000 clicks to sail LG this year, and I'm betting there were lots of near miss collisions and people running aground etc. When I sailed LG is Feb 2002 with Daishy - my first proper LG speed trip - I thought LG was too crowded. I had a few near misses during that visit. Me and Spotty nearly took each other out, and that was me trying to avoid everybody !!. I don't know what is was like, because I was not there in Feb. But I know Porter, and that is a tiny body of water. When me and Carl Mac sailed there in Oct 23, it was easy for us to get in each other's way. For the riders that attended this year, they may possibly be more aggressive/territorial from that experience ?. And so the result of that is an allergic reaction to GNDALERT ??. Because that is what I'm reading from the above responses. I went in Jan, looked at the water state, and I thought it was bad. I reported this state on SB, but everybody ignored, and went there anyway with less water. I'm not knocking people for driving all that way to sail in that state. But, just to say, you are safe, because I would never go to LG in that water state. My windsurfing is multi-styled. I do something else. I hate crowds.
Regarding your reply to Ian, you were patronising. If you did not mean to do that, then it came across like that. If you intended that, then I don't understand, because I would never do that to anyone here with a genuine question or idea. Yes, Ian's idea was left field, but he is not a GPSTC member, and probably has little knowledge of our comp. Windsurfing has many styles, with many perspectives. So, keep that in mind when you reply to somebody that could be unfamiliar.
I knew it was a left-field suggestion jn1. So did Mathew. We've had plenty of discussion about left-field ideas. I didn't take any offense.
Not up-to-date on the speed sailing scene. But in two short trips to Sandy point I did see experts go over the handlebars at 40 knots. Spotty in the duck pond, Sailquick in no-man's land (in a NorEaster or some other strange wind direction) and Mr Love on the speed course after diverting around a freestyler competing for the same stretch of flat water. I didn't See Mathew's famous off but have watched the video a few times. Maybe Mathew could post it up again to show that mostly it doesn't end up as bad as you'd expect.
Select to expand quotejn1 said..mathew said..
Yes there is. [ The idea of an alert system, isn't what I was being critical of. ] If someone chooses to jump out of a plane without a parachute, more fool them... just dont ask other people to pickup the pieces.
Sailing at speed in an area that you aren't familiar with, needs to be called out because it will be other sailors that need to come to the rescue.... you ruin your own day, but also ruin their day for being a nutbag.
vs... chat with others, takes a few runs to become familiar with the place, wear a helmet, let others know you are sailing in that area, etc -> have a plan in place. That sailor is now being as safe as reasonably possible -> all of us would help out in a rescue.
[ The idea of an alert system is fine, I dont think it will be effective due to a number of reasons, but that shouldn't stop us/the-world from trying to make a safety device. My opinion shouldn't stop people trying - because being an armchair critic is easy, vs the complexity of making something for the real world. ]
Ok, I think I understand what's going on here, and my idea seems to be bad timing (and totally unrelated). Everybody went to LG this year with the water level very low, despite me reporting it was sht with no weed in Jan. Effectively, a body of water a bit larger than a cricket field in Feb looking at the GPSTC tracks - half the size of Porter Lagoon (SA). Some of you have travelled 2000 clicks to sail LG this year, and I'm betting there were lots of near miss collisions and people running aground etc. When I sailed LG is Feb 2002 with Daishy - my first proper LG speed trip - I thought LG was too crowded. I had a few near misses during that visit. Me and Spotty nearly took each other out, and that was me trying to avoid everybody !!. I don't know what is was like, because I was not there in Feb. But I know Porter, and that is a tiny body of water. When me and Carl Mac sailed there in Oct 23, it was easy for us to get in each other's way. For the riders that attended this year, they may possibly be more aggressive/territorial from that experience ?. And so the result of that is an allergic reaction to GNDALERT ??. Because that is what I'm reading from the above responses. I went in Jan, looked at the water state, and I thought it was bad. I reported this state on SB, but everybody ignored, and went there anyway with less water. I'm not knocking people for driving all that way to sail in that state. But, just to say, you are safe, because I would never go to LG in that water state. My windsurfing is multi-styled. I do something else. I hate crowds.
Regarding your reply to Ian, you were patronising. If you did not mean to do that, then it came across like that. If you intended that, then I don't understand, because I would never do that to anyone here with a genuine question or idea. Yes, Ian's idea was left field, but he is not a GPSTC member, and probably has little knowledge of our comp. Windsurfing has many styles, with many perspectives. So, keep that in mind when you reply to somebody that could be unfamiliar.
I was one of the fools who did not follow your advice and travelled the 2000 km each way to sail LG. I made the trip after talking to a team mate who advised it was really good. We had great wind for the 10 days we were there. Although there was no weed, there was plenty of flat water for those who braved the mud. I suppose we should thank you, because a lot of sailors heeded you advice and numbers were down on previous years. If you did the necessary reconnaissance, noted where the shallow areas were, and kept an eye out for fellow sailors, it was safe to sail. The combination of great wind, flat water and great company contributed to a fabulous visit.
Don't take this personally but perhaps the allergic reaction to your proposal is just down to the fact that the sailors just don't think it's a practical or worthwhile idea.
I'd personally prefer to rely on my own judgement, experience and common sense.
It is 2025, we are in the future. I watched a guy getting picked up and towed into waves on his foil by a robotic seal, aka tow boogie / etow...
Anything is possible. It seems alerts wont work or are needed, but if you told me a robot seal would be needed a few years ago i would have laughed too.
If the alerts worked so well that there was no danger of becoming impaled at speed, or of face planting earth at speed, then there'd be so many people that there'd be collisions.
I went late last year and don't regret it. Because there may be no this year. That muddy water spray dried on the sail and i couldn't see anything, being out with just a few sailors late season who i felt i could trust where they were at and going was sweet happy mudsurfin.
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
I knew it was a left-field suggestion jn1. So did Mathew. We've had plenty of discussion about left-field ideas. I didn't take any offense.
Indeed we have 
For everyone whom hasn't met Ian, he is definitely in the select group of smartest you can ever meet.
Ian: Left field ideas are good, because nobody has ever tried them before. I don't have the physics knowledge and experience of this sport like you do. All your posts are interesting. You introduced me to Navier-Stokes formulas back in 2012 - That was a few nights of study to be able to follow your thread !!. I always respect what you post, and have a deep think about what you write, and before I reply. Please, keep on having those crazy ideas. That's how we discover new stuff.
John and Mobz: "Each to their own". I was not trying to show you all up. The point I was making was: I'm not going to crowd your spot, I won't be there to do it. Regarding my new idea, I respect your opinions. AFAIK, nobody has implemented this idea before. Am I wrong ?
Select to expand quotejn1 said..
Regarding my new idea, I respect your opinions. AFAIK, nobody has implemented this idea before. Am I wrong ?
Sailing has a long history of navigation-surveys so that boats dont crash into anything - that data typically is suited to larger boats. Small-boat sailing doesn't really have that kind of data available.
In the early days of speedsailing we only had timing-gates available to us - we got one shot at going fast. Then GPS's came onto the scene, every run could be checked at the end of the run -> it quickly became apparent that you could use that near-immediate feedback to help you learn to sail faster. This helped a lot of people to understand bearing-deep offwind. More data == better... for speedsailing and for any other on-water activity.
What was identified back then -> if we could use a device which could have a large display, and audio, and high-quality GPS, connectivity, lots of storage space, lots of battery... that would be ideal because it would open other avenues. A good choice is a phone - which would then make it possible for it to do a lot of other things, such as race-timing, hazard notification, geo-bounding, and so on.
We speedsail in shallow water, we would need depth-accuracy to a few cm's or better. And most places we sail are tidal to some degree (or similar such as Lake George where the water moves to the other end of the lake), so we need that depth to based on the actual depth at that point in time. And... we also travel up to 25m/s....
IMHO a phone-app would be a good candidate for providing track-logging, hazard notification, and a lot of other things. The limitation for hazard-mitigation is the good-quality data of the hazards.
... just my arm-chair opinion, so that shouldn't stop you from trying. If you achieve something good, then we will all benefit.
Yes, I've thought of a way for it to track tides (Stansbury, SA). However, I'm doing incremental development: I want to test the concept on a lake first.
Your phone idea is a good one. Before 2015, I would have jumped at this suggestion. The Android development environment is very nice. But as a 2 bit developer, I'm at Apple's, Samsung's, Android's, Google's mercy. With a micro controller design, I'm 100% in control of it. There is no way Espressif Systems can send a software update to my ESP32, and disable a crucial feature, and then I have to pay Espressif $100AUD month (for example) to have that feature etc.
That is all it is - "A little idea", inspired by sboardcrazy. It's just some guy's winter electronics project.
The 2nd circuit revision is going well. Assembled, tested. I'm waiting for conformal coating to dry before I put in it box. I'll post some pics later. A bit of 3D printing for the battery holder, and then figuring out water proofing etc. I've got a water proof ear phones. I have to figure out how to put a circular connector on it that is water proof and rugged.
With the algal bloom that has wrecked SA (I've nick name it "Karen"), plus drought. I doubt this idea will see real use any time soon. Might have to think about starting another hobby 
. No, I'm not selling my gear ! 
Build 1 complete. Took for a quick spin on motorcycle. I'm having issues with signal reception. Lots of bad signal messages from the speedtalker during this test, but I'll iron out the kinks. Would be nice to have a smaller enclosure, but happy with it for the time being. It can be stuffed down the pouch of my bouy vest and out of the way. See pics below of manufacturing process.
