Hi All,
Doing some research to find a powerful sail for 110 (69cm) slalom board. Read few tests about twin cam sails
(german surf mag for examplehttp://www.surf-magazin.de/test_technik/test/segel/freeridesegel/severne-turbo-81-gegen-ncx-80/a6873.html)
compared to free race version. It seems there's marginal or no benefit in going for a twin cam. Top end is actually better on a free race version. Only benefit seems to be bottom end but if your sail pumping technique is good this is not a benefit as well.
I'm surprise by how many shops stock twin cams and people using them if this is the case, what am I missing here?
I don't speak German but I have used a Turbo and the NP twin and both were great. With a narrow luff pocket compared to the race sails but a deeper profile than most camless sails they do have a niche.They are also lighter than the more race oriented sails.
me neither , just used Google translator 
thanks for the feedback, good to know they work in specific situations
I have an older model Naish Redline 6.5M. (Twin cam sail) By far my favourite sail for blasting around in anything over 20 knots on my 112lt slalom board. The draft is well forward and it seems to have a wide range. Its fast, light and easy to use. Unfortunately I can't justify replacing it.
Select to expand quotesonny2727 said..
I've owned a Code Red, NCX Pro and now a Turbo. I think that the Turbo is in between performance of the Code Red and NCX Pro. Plus it's lighter, quicker to rig (no zips) and rigs on a skinny mast. I only use these big sails in winter on the lakes, but as far as I'm concerned, 2 cams are the way to go for big freeriding.
I have used NP twin cam sails for years and currently have a 7.7 and a 6.7 Hornet. My 5.7 is a no-cam Hellcat and every time I use the Hellcat I wish I'd bought a 5.7 Hornet as well. IMO the twin cams guarantee earlier planing, but the biggest advantage is staying on the plane through the lulls. Also, it is a fallacy that twin cam sails take longer to rig, I find it easier and quicker to rig the twin cams because the profile is set automatically with less guess work and more margin for error with the amount of downhaul needed.
sorry, I just realised this thread is not about twin cam vs no cam, my apologies
always thought twin camber sails WERE free-race and 3 or more was RACE
personally use no cambers in under 7.0 m² sails, but i am a heavyweight
when you hit 20 knot winds and more , is there really a lull ??
on a longboard twin cam sails are ACE
You're fortunate, where I sail the wind is never that consistent, no matter the wind strength it fluctuates a couple of knots + and -
Twin cams do have great bottom end ..easy to rig . I have a 6.5 tushingham . lightning very fast .and 6.4 naish ..boxer ,the naish twin cam is a grunty little mother .rigs on a RDM .
.I had a 8.5 north in a twin cam ..over powered to easy..gave it away ..I would go the extra cams if buying over a 7.0 .but a grunty little 2 cam 6.0 or 6.5 is great to have in the quiver .especially if its gusty ,you can really belly them out .
maybe I should clarify the original question, comparison is about 2 cam vs the no cam free race sail of the same manufacturer. For example Turbo vs NCX, Hornet vs Helcat
Select to expand quotesonny2727 said..
maybe I should clarify the original question, comparison is about 2 cam vs the no cam free race sail of the same manufacturer. For example Turbo vs NCX, Hornet vs Helcat
Having owned both the Turbo and NCX I am pretty sure that the Turbo has a better bottom end and the NCx is better in the upper range though given a choice I love the Gator as it feels more like my wavesails. I am pretty sure that the NCX has an extra batten hence more stable at the upper end. Not being a speed nut I have not really tested the upper range of these sails but regularly see a 7.5 NCX/Futura combo pushed well into the red zone in 25 knot ++ conditions ( a gps mounted on the arm does influence the way humans sail). I have switched to a 5.7 by then.
I think the size is an important factor in the selection too.
I like the Turbo 7.5 very much as it get's me going earlier. The 8.5m is also on my wish list.
But I don't use it much on the open ocean, where I rather use the sails without cams (don't quite have the NCX, but nevertheless).
My take would be, NCX to 6.5m - 7m, and Turbo beyond?
Select to expand quotesonny2727 said..
maybe I should clarify the original question, comparison is about 2 cam vs the no cam free race sail of the same manufacturer. For example Turbo vs NCX, Hornet vs Helcat
Clear now ...only have tushingham s ,6.5 twin cam Vs my T4 7.0 no cam .the no - cam is nicer to use in chop ,as usual .softer and lighter feel .
the no cam does go off the plan quicker due to less low end .most of the time I would grab the 7.0. No cam .If I think I will get over powered in 20 knots + the twin cam has better stability ..you can get better down haul on it ,without completely losing your low end grunt .
I had a friend who went from a V8 pryde to a hell cat ..he hated the hellcat and went back to cams ..he liked his low down grunt.
but every brand is different ..
i think it depends on your sailing conditions .what sail to go for .
i think cam sails still have a slight edge in performance .but no- cams are easier to use and rig .
I wouldn't say they were dead in the water, but.... I don't see a need unless your talking big sails and you don't want to haul a boat anchor around!
I have recently owned/own both 2 cam/no cam, in both Sev & Ezzy the 2 cam has deeper profile so will allow you to go off the wind more and in theory obtain higher speeds than a no cam, other than that in 7m and down I didn't see any performance difference that outweighs the extra hassle of the cams, the 2 cam's certainly have that more 'solid locked in' feel akin to a race sail, but in the 7m an down no real benefit...no cam easier to gybe, rig, water start= more time sailing.
The 'low down grunt' I think depends on the no cam one is comparing to...an Ezzy Cheetah has massive bottom end, especially when you know how to rig it right, the NCX not as much, but I'd say the NCX is a slightly faster sail, its a flatter profile seems to just keep getting faster the more its pushed, where as the ezzy keeps you in control at the high speed end, owned a Hellcat and it had no bottom end at all, twitchy as, no joy, and its not a Brand thing as I have owned NP RAF (fancy old school word for no Cam!) sails in the past and they were awesome, so I guess bottom line is the brands differ a bit in feel and their performance bias.
I rigged my 2 cam the other day (and it is easy to rig for a cammed sail) and I still cursed and swore at the extra time and mucking around compared to the no cam.
I guess the question and story about the need for two cam gets back to what type of sailing you are doing,,,fun blasting or serious want to break GPS records, the race sail is the tool for the latter a no cam for the former...which leaves a 2 cam??? Perhaps just a great feature to make a more stable foil for large freeride sails.
Select to expand quoteJonesySail said..
I rigged my 2 cam the other day (and it is easy to rig for a cammed sail) and I still cursed and swore at the extra time and mucking around compared to the no cam.
I guess the question and story about the need for two cam gets back to what type of sailing you are doing,,,fun blasting or serious want to break GPS records, the race sail is the tool for the latter a no cam for the former...which leaves a 2 cam??? Perhaps just a great feature to make a more stable foil for large freeride sails.
Yeh, the 2 cam sail is kinda half pregnant
In the words of George Orwell
2 cam good
4 cam bad
No cam worse ( unless it blowen over 20)
Have used two cam sails in both Gastraa and Ezzy.
The Gaastra was an absolute nightmare to rig, and regularly broke battens due to narrow sleeve.
The Ezzy Lions are nice sails, but insignificant difference to the cheetahs in speed.
Unless you are chasing GPS records I don't see the advantages are enough to counter the xtra rigging time and weight as no cams are so good now.
Totally agree with JonesySail on the 3 sails mentioned below.
Have owned NCX's, Hellcats, and now cheetahs.
NCX very fast and stable due to high skin tension achieved with high downhaul forces
Hellcat, twitchy, centre of effort keeps moving arround.
Cheetahs, softer feel, lots of low down grunt, due to deep profile and lower skin tension.
Have owned a lot of 2 cam free ride and no cam sails over the years. Best and reasonably current I have sailed is the NP H2 - Not letting it go for a long time!
Select to expand quoteJonesySail said..
I guess the question and story about the need for two cam gets back to what type of sailing you are doing,,,fun blasting or serious want to break GPS records, the race sail is the tool for the latter a no cam for the former...which leaves a 2 cam??? Perhaps just a great feature to make a more stable foil for large freeride sails.
I agree with this. I like full-on race sails if I go full-on. But if I don't, a no-cam is preferable.
Regarding the low-end, I get planing as early with my 7m2 no-cam as i can with my 8m2 V8.
The difference is that the V8 can hold down a slalomboard, which the no-cam can't. But, I would prefer a full-on race sail to the v8 any day.
I don't see a need for the free-race cammed sails, because the no-cams really have gotten amazingly good in all the aspects, where two-cams used to excell.
Interesting. I learned last season on a 7.2 hellcat 2012 and basically have no comparison info to share as yet. However...
I just bought a neilpryde H2 6.2 2011 (twin cam). Have only had an hour or so on it, but it's feeling more manageable and just as powerful as the bigger hellcat. Obviously it's lighter but I'm now playing a little with the outhaul for the first time as I try to understand how to get maximum speed/ stability out of the current wind condition
Already feeling very positive about the switch to the cam version 
No cam---good for doing freestyle or wave sailing but for river or slalom sailing--- very average performance and terrible twitchy feel.
Twin cam--- should get you up and going a little quicker with improved feel / stability over a no cam sail. Faster too.
Full race sail will point much higher than a twin cam and be faster especially tight to the wind.
Off the wind,not that much in it.
I feel that advanced intermediate sailors would be far better off buying race sails --- for me they are so much easier to hold when the winds picks up.
You have to be careful though,many race sails refuse to rotate well,even with the proper mast! Likely the main reason why they are not so popular.
This is still a major problem with rotation with many current model race sails.
Maui race sails rotate the best by far from my experience.
the question of the OP seems to really be oriented towards ...
comparing sails of the same manufacturer - freeride vs freerace vs race
some freeride are so good - why bother with the freerace or race ??
the Severne NCX and Sailworks Retro are examples
with MauiSails I have used freeride, freerace and race in the 8.0-8.5 m² range
if i am to use cambers, i prefer the wide luff race sail
do not like rigging narrow luff camber sails and I break the battens
leave the leech too tight, not enough downhaul and outhaul
if i think i may drop a sail due to chop, etc I prefer a freeride sail
easier to uphaul, waterstart, etc
In the 8.x range - The sail that has the biggest range ie soft sail (without stopping to tune) is the HotSailsMaui SpeedFreak 8.5
I felt the only weak point was perhaps the low grunt factor
They @ HSM are also talking about adding one camber to help lock in the shape
Am also not sold on their PVC window - stretchy and cold sensitive ...
here is my 2 camber vs race sail discussion
joewindsurfer.blogspot.com/2012/09/wide-luff-vs-free-race-sails.html
and freeiride vs 2 camber sail discussion
joewindsurfer.blogspot.ca/2011/08/maui-sails-pursuit-vs-ms-2.html
Select to expand quotepetermac33 said..
No cam---good for doing freestyle or wave sailing but for river or slalom sailing--- very average performance and terrible twitchy feel.
Twin cam--- should get you up and going a little quicker with improved feel / stability over a no cam sail. Faster too.
Full race sail will point much higher than a twin cam and be faster especially tight to the wind.
Off the wind,not that much in it.
I feel that advanced intermediate sailors would be far better off buying race sails --- for me they are so much easier to hold when the winds picks up.
You have to be careful though,many race sails refuse to rotate well,even with the proper mast! Likely the main reason why they are not so popular.
This is still a major problem with rotation with many current model race sails.
Maui race sails rotate the best by far from my experience.
some corkers in here Pete! exactly what no cam sails have you owned recently?
there is about a million people all saying no cams are excellent alternative to race sails, even professional sailors.
the 'discussion' was about 2cam V No cam.
I did see a recent post recently where you tested some kit and struggled to get much more than 20knts of speed in 40 knot winds was it?...so I'm thinking reading that
enough said about your testing ability...good luck pulling up your race sail off the bottom of the Swan in the middle of winter Brrrrr. 
Select to expand quoteMcSailing said..
Hellcat, twitchy, centre of effort keeps moving arround.
I'm thinking of getting some Hellcats mainly because I've a NP mast to put them on.
What mast were you using to find them twitchy? (I hate twitchy)
Love the 7.5 Ncx
Recently went Turbo 7.5 - about the same speed off the wind
- the Turbo has quite a bit more low end grunt and lull continuance. (without having to force rig massive knuckle into an ncx)
And possibly a touch more competitive on the tight reach
With rigging that is almost as easy as the NCX (still have to do the downhaul / outhaul/ release downhaul/ pop cams on shuffle but is quick and easy)
I am calling the Turbo for the win! Both deliver a great result though...
A lot can be achieved with either when you put an adjustable outhaul on.
