Select to expand quoteFreddofrog said..
Isn't all this right of way talk just academic? No one really expects someone on port tack to yield or is that the mentality now? I'm yet to hear anyone yell "starboard" (except while course racing) so I guess no?
No it is law. Not academic - law. You have to give way to the one on starboard, simple.
The the fact it is not being taught by kite schools is mind blowing.
I always yield when on port tack (heading out here) unless it puts me close to the kiter to his leeward side AND he obviously will let me go upwind of him as he is being nice (obvious due to some course change or gesture etc)
It is pretty simple, starboard tack hold your course (usually heading upwind here in WA if we are talking a wave spot) and those on port bear away a bit if on a collision course.
For what it's worth...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea
A commonly held misconception concerning the rules of marine navigation is that by following specific rules, a vessel can gain certain rights of way over other vessels.
and
[Rule 2 is sometimes referred to as the "General Prudential" rule and provides for non-conformance with stated rules to prevent a collision, because what is paramount is to avoid or minimise the damaging effects of a collision, as opposed to blindly following the rules to the letter. The overall intent is to minimise actual collision taking place rather than rule compliance in and of itself, per se.]
In other words, above all else, avoid collision. No use ploughing into someone and claiming you were on starboard if you had an opportunity to avoid.
Personally I find the starboard rule less effective than making a clear decision well in advance to go upwind or downwind of someone on the opposite tack who is on my line. I find holding my line on starboard far less comforting 
^^ trouble with that is when everyone wants to go upwind - nobody will yield. That is what is important in shortboard windsurfing and particularly wavesailing as when not in the waves everyone wants to get upwind (to ride the next wave DTL) and so port and starboard intersect, every run, again and again.
Thus isn't it better if port always yields?
Unless of course collision is imminent and both parties have to do their best to avoid .............. but again, port tack will try harder if he has half a brain.
Yep, fair enough, I have the luxury of a bit more space generally. Yes it is better if port tack yields. My point is, the rules are clear, if port tack does not yield, you still need to avoid collision and a 
Select to expand quotepaddymac said..
In other words, above all else, avoid collision.
That's exactly the purpose of the "right-of-way" rules for general sailing. If both sailors change course, chances are high that they still are on a collision course. If both sailors know and follow the rules, collisions are easily avoided.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Freddofrog said..
Isn't all this right of way talk just academic? No one really expects someone on port tack to yield or is that the mentality now? I'm yet to hear anyone yell "starboard" (except while course racing) so I guess no?
No it is law. Not academic - law. You have to give way to the one on starboard, simple.
The the fact it is not being taught by kite schools is mind blowing.
I am well aware it is the law. But as everyone doesn't know the rules, isn't it unsafe and even foolish to assume they will give way? How can they when they don't know the rules. Easier to assume they won't and steer clear.
And I can only speak for my kiting lesson, right of way wasn't taught at all, but it's a very valid point. I guess the logic is it really isn't that relevant for kites. The most important thing to avoid tangling lines. The upwind kite flies high and the downwind kite flies low. That doesn't help with interacting with windsurfers though.
Is right of way now taught in windsurfing lessons?
Edit: I have started a thread on this in the kitesurf section. It would be interesting to get some feedback. Hopefully some instructors will chime in.
Reading through your posts it really does seem that your solution to the problem of Kiters not knowing the right of way rules and of not looking when jumping/turning is for everybody else to keep out of their way.
Unfortunately it's that attitude that ends up causing the conflict/annoyance in the first place.
No windsurfer every wants to pass downwind of a kite as unless you know the kiter you don't know if he is going to drop his lines on you through malice/stupidity/accident.
Therefore I always try to go upwind on Starboard tack and on port tack I just put up with losing ground by pissing off downwind to get out of the way. However every kite I ever pass wants to go upwind, regardless off the tack you are on.
Select to expand quoteleftfield said..
Reading through your posts it really does seem that your solution to the problem of Kiters not knowing the right of way rules and of not looking when jumping/turning is for everybody else to keep out of their way.
...
Not at all.
Thread in the kiting section on being taught right of way.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Who-was-taught-right-of-way-rules/?page=-2#lastpost
Select to expand quoteFreddofrog said..Mark _australia said..
Freddofrog said..
Isn't all this right of way talk just academic? No one really expects someone on port tack to yield or is that the mentality now? I'm yet to hear anyone yell "starboard" (except while course racing) so I guess no?
No it is law. Not academic - law. You have to give way to the one on starboard, simple.
The the fact it is not being taught by kite schools is mind blowing.
I am well aware it is the law. But as everyone doesn't know the rules, isn't it unsafe and even foolish to assume they will give way? How can they when they don't know the rules. Easier to assume they won't and steer clear.
And I can only speak for my kiting lesson, right of way wasn't taught at all, but it's a very valid point. I guess the logic is it really isn't that relevant for kites. The most important thing to avoid tangling lines. The upwind kite flies high and the downwind kite flies low. That doesn't help with interacting with windsurfers though.
Is right of way now taught in windsurfing lessons?
Edit: I have started a thread on this in the kitesurf section. It would be interesting to get some feedback. Hopefully some instructors will chime in.
Good to see some proactive action. The mention of tangling lines got my attention. Can you convince me, and others perhaps, that a kiter operating in the vicinity of others, including people on the beach, are not in risk of injury due to wayward lines? Because they cover such a large footprint I wonder if the rules for avoidance should include separate considerations for both the kitesurfing board and their lines. Personally, I don't feel safe around most kiters who swing their lines in my direction or over the top of me.
Of course not. Wayward lines are a definate risk though more so with beginners. Even with experienced kiters flying over me, I keep a very very close eye on them.
Actually I think I may have had a light bulb moment. Kiters are willing to accept and manage the risk. However many windsurfers aren't which is one reason why they don't kite in the first place. So a kiter waving lines overhead may seem perfectly safe to him but to the person in the water/beach it may seem totally dangerous. So when the kiter gets abused, they end up looking totally blank responding with "like what's your problem?" because they don't perceive their actions as risky or dangerous. See, light bulb moment, or at least a bright candle. What do you think?
Additional rules are a possibility but I prefer people being made responsible for their own safety. More rules just mean we are relying on the government for our safety rather than relying on ourselves.
freddo so in stating this are you assuming that, because the said Kiter thinks they are acting in a safe manner and willing to accept and manage the risks they are in fact acting in a safe manner for all those around because they (the Kiter) thinks they are operating safely and managing the risks ?
to put it another way, is a driver who is tail gating at high speeds, who thinks they are driving safely because they think they know what they are doing and are willing to accept and manage the risks, actually driving safely ? Surely if they underestimate the risks and their ability to mange them the impact will be on them and the other party ?
(edit) as for your lightbulb moment, I think the real issue is one of consideration, consideration for those around you.
thinking about how your actions could impact others goes along way to reducing actual impact of actions as opposed to the thought process of I know what I'm doing so they don't need to worry ?
Select to expand quoteFreddofrog said..
And I can only speak for my kiting lesson, right of way wasn't taught at all, but it's a very valid point.
...
Is right of way now taught in windsurfing lessons?
Interesting to hear that right of way was not taught in your kiting lessons. Seems the same was true for some other kiters who responded to your thread.
In windsurfing lessons, the right-of-way rules are taught. That was true 35 years ago in Germany when I started, and is still true in the US where I took a windsurf instructor class not too long ago. I also take ABK camps that have a mix from total beginners to experts regularly; everyone who has never taken the camp before has to listen to the right-of-way lessons again, even if they are experts. The UK RYA beginner windsurfing book, which is pretty skinny, also has the rules illustrated.
When traveling, windsurfers tend to rent gear, and many rental stations have the right-of-way rules posted, and/or verify that you know the rules. Some stations are quite forceful there; Dr. Wind in Brazil even has in their rental conditions "Sailors who do not respect traffic rules in the water or are sailing in a dangerous manner will be warned and then If the dangerous behaviour remains, their contracts will be cancelled".
So it is pretty reasonable to expect that a windsurfer knows the rules of the road. Apparently, that is not true for kite surfers.
Maybe this extends to changing course, too. "Look first" is part of virtually every jibe instruction video or lesson. Since changing direction and jumping is so much easier with kites, I guess many kiters learn it outside of school, with nobody telling them to look first. Common sense should tell them to look, but if common sense was common, we would not have this discussion.
That's interesting and certainly hasn't been the experience in Australia. Every windsurfer I've know of was self taught. And I've never noticed any right of way signs at local gear hire places. So I think the opposite, it's reasonable to think most windsurfers don't know the rules unless they've learnt it elsewhere.
Contrast to kiters, due to the dangers, there is a VERY strong almost obsessive push to ensure newbies are professionally taught. However as one instructor replied, beginners have a lot to process so just staying in control is difficult. Luckily the learning curve is pretty quick.
Only this one instructor replied and he does teach right of way. I suspect all the other instructors who didn't reply are too embaressed to admit they don't. But hopefully they will consider it next time.
Select to expand quoteFreddofrog said..
That's interesting and certainly hasn't been the experience in Australia. Every windsurfer I've know of was self taught. And I've never noticed any right of way signs at local gear hire places. So I think the opposite, it's reasonable to think most windsurfers don't know the rules unless they've learnt it elsewhere.
Contrast to kiters, due to the dangers, there is a VERY strong almost obsessive push to ensure newbies are professionally taught. However as one instructor replied, beginners have a lot to process so just staying in control is difficult. Luckily the learning curve is pretty quick.
Only this one instructor replied and he does teach right of way. I suspect all the other instructors who didn't reply are too embaressed to admit they don't. But hopefully they will consider it next time.
Gee I had a lot to process in my first driving lessons mirror signal brake clutch gears etc but I still magaged to give way.
Select to expand quoteFreddofrog said..
That's interesting and certainly hasn't been the experience in Australia. Every windsurfer I've know of was self taught. And I've never noticed any right of way signs at local gear hire places. So I think the opposite, it's reasonable to think most windsurfers don't know the rules unless they've learnt it elsewhere.
Certainly (in WA anyway) all the experienced windsurfers I know do know the right of way rules, but if your an ocean sailor on the west coast its sort of easy as its almost always guy coming in has right of way (apart from the exception in breaking waves). Sailing in the river is another story of course. I actually changed my "names" on here to Right Hand Forward to help me remember it.
Strangely for windsurfers it doesnt seem to matter so much, but that might just be my experience, the sailor pushing upwind having right of way (when you are on same tack) is more commonly needed and more fun as well. Speed sailing its more cooperative and its the person on the run who has right of way, but thats just courtesy.
I have never had a lesson but picked up the rules from mates on the beach and probably magazines back when they were common.
I think your light bulb moment is correct, when I mention to my kiter (ex windsurfer) friends about not liking the strings near me they always seem a little surprised and dont see what the problem is. Probably because they are quite comfortable with them and accept the "risk" of other kiters around them.
I learned to sail without many people around so getting used to "traffic" and remember to look before gybing is something I had to pick up later. I still prefer to be out where there is so much space I dont have to look before turning (feels like a guilty pleasure now).
My limited experience of hiring gear overseas there was no right of way mentioned, but it was a few Km of beach reserved for windsurfing, no kiters allowed and not crowded at all.
I shall deal with windsurfing issues first, and then between windsurfers and kiters.
I believe the most dangerous thing one can do when two approaching windsurfers get near each other, is to change course. When one of them changes course, it is likely/possible that the other party also changes course. It is a bit like being stuck at the door, each being more polite than the other person by giving way.
I believe many of the folks who changed direction suddenly are beginners or intermediates. Personally, I chose to stay the course. Windsurfing takes up a narrow lane. If you are both competent and confident, you can safely pass each other very closely without a fuss. Some people can sail upwind better because of their techniques, or even due to their equipment. So to expect them to bear off downwind a long way to avoid a collision is simply silly.
I do give learners a wide berth. I did so in order not to put pressure on them, as well as because their response could be unpredictable due to the lack of confidence. I suspect sometimes they are actually following the rules to the letters.
The problem with a wide open patch of water is that there are no marked lanes. Whether you are infringing on other's right of way is only through line of sight. So the best course of action is to keep your nerves, and bail out if there is a real potential of collision.
As for windsurfers and kiters, I am not so sure of the rules. As far as I know, kites can tack upwind far better than windsurfers. So if a kiter wish to go upwind, there isn't much you can do. If and when a windsurfer and kiter get very close from opposite directions, then my instincts tell me that those long lines can do me harms in so many ways. Without giving it a second thought, I went upwind of the kiter just to avoid the lines. In all cases, kiters had chosen the downwind path, so no problem for each of us there.
Despite the fact that we managed to keep out of harms way, I remained baffled why on earth a couple of the kiters chose to zip around the windsurfers' area, when they have a wide open patch designated for themselves?
Select to expand quoteJupiter said..
1...As for windsurfers and kiters, I am not so sure of the rules.
2...As far as I know, kites can tack upwind far better than windsurfers...
3...I remained baffled why on earth a couple of the kiters chose to zip around the windsurfers' area, when they have a wide open patch designated for themselves?
1. Windsurfers and kiters are both considered sailing vessels so the same rules apply to both
2. Not really, it's the same as windsurfers, depends on the gear and person. Course boards will tear up wind whereas short freestyle twin tips don't point well at all.
3. Not sure. I kite in an area adjacent to a restricted area (for both kiters and windsurfers). However you still see people there.
- Some are just ignorant and don't know.
- Some just don't care.
- Others are beginners and end up there unintentionally.
- And others intentionally go there cause the water is extremely flat so perfect for doing tricks or flat out speed runs.
So without knowing your particular area, any of these might apply
A plague polluting the sky
will do whatever it takes to stay up wind of any kite skimmer so i don't have to predict what they are going to do,, those lines in the wrong hands are lethal weapons, and the smash and grab downwinder crew show little respect for anyone .
l respect all fellow waterman being a sailboarder l try to sail well away from them simple philosophy. if they do actually share the chosen spot that lm sailing in l try & keep my wits between other kiters close by hey accidents to happen let's just hope no body gets seriously injured .l find jets skiers the most annoying they usually disappear when it gets to windy & rough.
Select to expand quoteFreddofrog said..
Of course not. Wayward lines are a definate risk though more so with beginners. Even with experienced kiters flying over me, I keep a very very close eye on them.
Actually I think I may have had a light bulb moment. Kiters are willing to accept and manage the risk. However many windsurfers aren't which is one reason why they don't kite in the first place. So a kiter waving lines overhead may seem perfectly safe to him but to the person in the water/beach it may seem totally dangerous. So when the kiter gets abused, they end up looking totally blank responding with "like what's your problem?" because they don't perceive their actions as risky or dangerous. See, light bulb moment, or at least a bright candle. What do you think?
Additional rules are a possibility but I prefer people being made responsible for their own safety. More rules just mean we are relying on the government for our safety rather than relying on ourselves.
With the lines it is a case of distance from other people, not just us windsurfers. Do you ever see a plane flying right on the water? The rules prevent them going below 500 feet. Then there are jet skiers. In some locations they are obligated to stay a certain distance from other boats...especially fishing boats. Tough rules but they brought it upon themselves by not respecting other water users. Having fun is no excuse to spoil other people's day or causing harm. Because of the speed we travel at, both windsurfers and kiters have to take reasonable care while on the water. Double so for the kiter because he has to act responsibly with his board and with the lines as well.
Select to expand quoteFreddofrog said..Mark _australia said..
Freddofrog said..
Isn't all this right of way talk just academic? No one really expects someone on port tack to yield or is that the mentality now? I'm yet to hear anyone yell "starboard" (except while course racing) so I guess no?
No it is law. Not academic - law. You have to give way to the one on starboard, simple.
The the fact it is not being taught by kite schools is mind blowing.
I am well aware it is the law. But as everyone doesn't know the rules, isn't it unsafe and even foolish to assume they will give way? How can they when they don't know the rules. Easier to assume they won't and steer clear.
And I can only speak for my kiting lesson, right of way wasn't taught at all, but it's a very valid point. I guess the logic is it really isn't that relevant for kites. The most important thing to avoid tangling lines. The upwind kite flies high and the downwind kite flies low. That doesn't help with interacting with windsurfers though.
Is right of way now taught in windsurfing lessons?
Edit: I have started a thread on this in the kitesurf section. It would be interesting to get some feedback. Hopefully some instructors will chime in.
Thanks for that thread starter in the kitesurf section, after reading thru the responses, I am now even more convinced to stay as far away from all kiters as possible. There seems to be mostly confusion over there.
But I'd still like to see you start a thread over there in regards to predicting windsurfer's behavior, they could use it.
Select to expand quoteMastbender said.....
But I'd still like to see you start a thread over there in regards to predicting windsurfer's behavior, they could use it.
Actually a lot of kiters are ex-windsurfers so there is already a high degree of understanding of windsurfing behaviour. And if a windsurfer screws up the effect is restricted to just a couple of metres around him so it affects less people and the consequences are less severe.
What I am considering is starting a post related to better interaction or something like that. However even after all the discussion only 2 issues have surfaced that relate solely to kiters:
1. Kiters not looking BEHIND before jumping
2. Windsurfers are very apprehensive around kite lines so give them more room
The issues like right of way and looking before gybing applies to both. Both camps would have just as many examples of each other screwing up.
If anyone has more points I’m happy to hear it. However it must be apply to kiting only.
Wow, everyone is all over the place. The rule is simple.
Starboard has right of way , hold your course.
Starboard is right hand/foot forward ,sail your course.
Those on port avoid the collision.
Either by up or down wind.
Kites have the same rules
If a collision is about to happen, both vessels turn right/starboard . Easy
Select to expand quotekato said...
Wow, everyone is all over the place. The rule is simple.
Starboard has right of way , hold your course.
Starboard is right hand/foot forward ,sail your course.
Those on port avoid the collision.
Either by up or down wind.
Kites have the same rules
If a collision is about to happen, both vessels turn right/starboard . Easy
You should see the thread the OP put on the kite forum 
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said...kato said...
Wow, everyone is all over the place. The rule is simple.
Starboard has right of way , hold your course.
Starboard is right hand/foot forward ,sail your course.
Those on port avoid the collision.
Either by up or down wind.
Kites have the same rules
If a collision is about to happen, both vessels turn right/starboard . Easy
You should see the thread the OP put on the kite forum
Tend to avoid it as it might give me a rash.
Select to expand quotekato said..
Wow, everyone is all over the place. The rule is simple.
Starboard has right of way , hold your course.
Starboard is right hand/foot forward ,sail your course.
Those on port avoid the collision.
Either by up or down wind.
Kites have the same rules
If a collision is about to happen, both vessels turn right/starboard . Easy
Well said, this rule is basic, easily understood and esential when sailing in company. If you don't understand it or worse understand but ignore it, then sail by yourself
