I started a topic on this about 16 months ago but it's too old to post in, so created again.
We don't get >20 knots at my local very often but when we do it really brings me back to earth on where I'm at with my sailing ability because >20 knots means sizeable swell on the full tide and serious chop. I usually wait until the tide runs out and flattens the surface before I go out which is annoying when the good sailors are out there on the high tide dealing with the swell and chop and having a phat time. They seem to be able to ride the tail in these conditions and skim over the chop and swell. I want to learn how to do this. I assume there is something seriously wrong with how my technique has evolved over the years that prevents me being able to sail like this. I suspect that I sail too "side-on"(I rarely sail with a straight front leg) but I need to know how to correct this. I'll be working on resolving this by experimenting with my stance, harness line position etc.and more time on water in those lumpy conditions to try to " get it", but does anyone have any suggestions as to something simple that I'm missing through their own experience of going through this conundrum? Is it possible that it's just a TOW issue and eventually I'll get it?
Speed is your friend, go faster and you just hop from top to top smoothing it out. Just got to be brave.
the downside is when it does go wrong the crashes are much more spectacular.
Been wondering the same myself. This clip here at 3:45 is the best I've felt on my 145 Blast, verging on overpowered. The other tack lined up poorly with the swells, which were 1-2 fr and causing me to slam around or go flying. I think there's trimming that would help without downsizing my board. 8.0 with 43cm fin. Maybe push the mast base back further? Straps are already far outboard as aft as they can go. I don't get a lot of time on the water like this vs foiling.
Select to expand quoteOrange Whip said..
I started a topic on this about 16 months ago but it's too old to post in, so created again.
We don't get >20 knots at my local very often but when we do it really brings me back to earth on where I'm at with my sailing ability because >20 knots means sizeable swell on the full tide and serious chop. I usually wait until the tide runs out and flattens the surface before I go out which is annoying when the good sailors are out there on the high tide dealing with the swell and chop and having a phat time. They seem to be able to ride the tail in these conditions and skim over the chop and swell. I want to learn how to do this. I assume there is something seriously wrong with how my technique has evolved over the years that prevents me being able to sail like this. I suspect that I sail too "side-on"(I rarely sail with a straight front leg) but I need to know how to correct this. I'll be working on resolving this by experimenting with my stance, harness line position etc.and more time on water in those lumpy conditions to try to " get it", but does anyone have any suggestions as to something simple that I'm missing through their own experience of going through this conundrum? Is it possible that it's just a TOW issue and eventually I'll get it?
Could you tell us more why it's annoying? It seems you've identified one possible reason but what happens when you try to sail with a more powerful stance? Are you simply kind of sketched by the conditions - seeing the big chop and feeling reluctant? Or are there particular things happening like frequent spin outs, pounding into the chop, feeling too much pressure on the front or back leg? Is your gear choice similar (adjusting for body weight, etc) to the "good sailors"?
Is it on a particular run?
A particular angle?
With a particular board?
Anybody else with the issue on your spot?
Is it hurting your speed? Planing? Knees?
thats a complex question OW,so much depends on what board and sail you use ,and how heavy the chop really is ,there is choppy and there is **** get me out of here chop .
I ocean sail a fair bit and going at full speed is the best ride over chop remedy .Attacking each wave or chop at the correct angle ,you need to almost be a surfer .eg.so if you are sailing out and see a big swell kinda sail down with it unless jumping ,so most of the time there is no straight line ,its adjusting small angles of approach .and yes sometimes you have to jump ,its unavoidable
Adjusting your mast track back 10 mil ..makes a huge difference form nose slapping to riding free and over swell and chop ,
cam free sails are your best beat ,cams will tend to drive you into swell and a bit slow on releasing power when you need a ever so slightly power off ..a swept back fin also helps in smoothing out the ride ,it drops the tail down ,well thats some of my experiences ,
it's fun in chop ..but yes harder on the joints ..but a nice freeride or free move board is the go.
it's the technique for sure! I haven't mastered it yet but I once did it right and my slalom board felt like night and day difference.
what I did: pushed up with front leg like kicking a football and pushing down with back leg like trying to tear board apart.
the thing is that later after that I haven't been able to do this again. it's like i only managed to do it for about 10m and then it was the end of the lane.
I'm sure this year I'll figure it out. It's possible that I also pushed the sail towards the fin but I'm not sure.
the gear was: manta 98L vapor 5.5 and 31cm fin (now switched to 33cm but keeping the 31cm).
here's the thing: when I did it right the 98L board ate chop better than 80L wave board!
Have you spoken to the local sailors who are blasting over the chop and asked them for advice? They can see what you sail like far better than words will describe.
Never considered my wave boards good in chop.
My bump boards are much smoother and allow more options.
In wave sailing..wave boards..the inside is very flat and frothy, the outside is when you jibe and head in on a wave.
Thanks for the replies, I'll attach my clew view today with my go pro and report back with a vid.
Try raising your boom and moving your mast foot back in 2 cm increments (one at a time) untill you feel the board fly off the fin.
Gordon, I wouldnt say I was comfortable out there yesterday to begin with. Initially it was a case of needing to keep speed down just to keep the board on the water when the chop was enormous. I agree with the mast track back and boom up theory, but you need to be powered right up (more power than you currently feel comfortable with ) before you bring rig and stance back, and the fin needs to be able to take it. The technique is more successful the faster you go. You need to fight the urge to ease off. Id say yesterday you just needed a touch bigger and less wavey sail, fin combo. Maybe try my Fox one day as it really works in that sailing mode.
Its funny, that in 15 with gusts to 20+ knots I will skip along the top of the chop or waves when close to overpowered on the foil, get too high in those conditions and it gets harder to recover from a gust.
Windsurfing.....only when well powered up.
Underpowered can be a pounding nightmare.
May I may the comment that you have to be very "active".
You can't really rely on sitting back and riding the tail.
You have to be constantly working your legs to absorb the bumps and fill in the troughs and so keep the board on the water. Soft knees and use your body like a suspension system (springs and also shocks) to absorb the chop when the board wants to jump whilst also extending back out to keep the board on the water, but constantly doing it.
It is maybe easier when you have a nice steady wind and are fully powered up as then you don't have to think about constantly working the sail as well.
Maybe try to make it feel like your head must remain at exactly the same elevation by constantly working your knees and ankles (and hips and arms). For technique practice try hitting some small waves or white water as fast as you can - but absorb everything so you don't jump. Now you just have to do the same thing but 30 times a second.
I find a smaller, lighter, narrower board and single fin makes it much easier to use my ankles (and then knees) to do a lot of the work rather than having to use the whole body - but either way the aim is for you to be in control by being in control rather than sitting back and taking whatever it gives you.
Get aggressive, get active - but stay chilled out and not angry with it all.
And my fav... put your back foot deeper into the strap, toes closer to the centre line so you can lift the heel-side rail.
Select to expand quoteJonnyWindsurf said..
This guy is pretty good at going fast in chop:
96L board, 25-30kts he says...
Yeah that's smaller than my smallest board (102L). Maybe one of these days I'll get a more freerace or freeride board in lower volume to bridge between the 145 Blast and 115 Dyno
Boy, that is a rough ride!, when I windsurfed on my local bay, out of the N it was pretty flat, but from the S could get big waves, so I would plow through the waves going out and then turn around and drop into a wave trough and shoot down it, was like glass. Guess that is why I foil now.
This video is strange. Robby doesnt use hat his harness during long periods. I do not think that this is a good idea for control an speed in chop. No slalom racer would do this in any race.
Are the conditions in Robby's video the same as Orange Whip's ">20 knots means sizeable swell on the full tide and serious chop. I usually wait until the tide runs out and flattens the surface before I go out"?
Going on a down winder like Robby is one way of dealing with chop as you are going over the back of swell, except when you come inside and head out again to do some jumps. Doing figure 8 sailing and you are going to be hitting steeper sections, even if you try to pick your way through it.
The difference between Robby's kit and Orange Whip's is? We dont know, we werent told.
Select to expand quotecad184 said..
This video is strange. Robby doesnt use hat his harness during long periods. I do not think that this is a good idea for control an speed in chop. No slalom racer would do this in any race.
and it gets exhausting pretty fast when un-hooked.
Well, we know Naish can go fast in heavy ocean swell and chop, just watch Fast Forward or any vid of him sailing 25 knots and jumping out off Maleakahana Beach on Oahu.
But h in the vids, he's mostly hooked in.
Select to expand quoteBen1973 said..
Speed is your friend, go faster and you just hop from top to top smoothing it out. Just got to be brave.
the downside is when it does go wrong the crashes are much more spectacular.
I assume this is probably a good tip. I have revisited all the basic Guy Cribb tip sheets, some of them really old. I've become very complacent with some of the basics when I look at his tips. First one I need to spruce up on is tightening my seat harness and getting it back down low where it belongs to maximise MFP.
Select to expand quoteOrange Whip said..Ben1973 said..
Speed is your friend, go faster and you just hop from top to top smoothing it out. Just got to be brave.
the downside is when it does go wrong the crashes are much more spectacular.
I assume this is probably a good tip. I have revisited all the basic Guy Cribb tip sheets, some of them really old. I've become very complacent with some of the basics when I look at his tips. First one I need to spruce up on is tightening my seat harness and getting it back down low where it belongs to maximise MFP.
It is a good tip, but its only half the story. Not staying sheeted in is where you'll start to have a bad time. An open sail lets the nose up, a sheeted in sail keeps it down.
tuning then sheeting in lets you find that skipping off wave tops feeling.
There comes a point in wind/swell/wave condition when any pro sailor chooses a fast wave or fsw over slalom-freeide.
That's why high wind boards exist.
The crossover moment depends on skill, size, experience, confidence, health, and a whole bunch of other factors.
Sure, at Lake George, skilled riders can handle sustained 30 knot conditions with 105 liter slalom boards.
Same 30 knots at Pozo would see the same riders out on 86 liter wave boards.
Select to expand quoteJonnyWindsurf said..
This guy is pretty good at going fast in chop:
as a side note, this robbie naish video shows his legs from a good angle where you can see the front is extended and back bent and he is leaning back. I have seen all other experienced windsurfers standing like this but I can never seem to do this because no matter which board Im on trying to lean back and bending back leg always seems to result in going upwind for me. I always have to keep loads of pressure on the back leg / fin to feel comfortable resulting in both legs straight and hanging out the side stance rather than leaning back a little and having a proper stance and I've never been able to get faster than 25kt no matter what conditions or rig im riding, never been able to correct this no matter what I try. I need to work this out i think before i will go faster, any ideas?
Robbie is not going hard upwind, so loads back bent leg and pushes out with straight front.
When he heads hard upwind, he straightens back leg just like you do...bent front.
