The idea that new is better is highly subjective. We are taught to believe that newer model cars are always better but that is not the philosophy behind what the manufacturers base their strategies. Originally, notable car manufacturers like Henry Ford resisted the idea of bring out a new model each year but eventually the economics of selling more (not better) cars became the norm. Sometimes there are good reasons to buy a newer model because there have been paradigm shifts in performance rather than the colours and patterns used for cosmetic effects. Strangely, people still own vintage cars, just as some people still like the older windsurfing designs. Therefore, wouldn't it be a healthy sight to see all types out on the water? Ironically, it is the manufacturers who have pushed out new products to an already diminishing market caused by too many options. Have they got it wrong because one day they will run out of new toys to throw at us? Perhaps we are on the saturation level with that now?
Select to expand quoteonshoreroy said..
Simmer Style now sells their products directly from their website at reasonable prices. The new Evoq appears to have improved build quality and longevity.
Those masts are heavy.
One example of where I think a Manufacturer is clearly pulling our leg....... One of my RDM extensions is a Duotone Power XT. I needed to replace the rope and as Duotone uses a special diameter I had to look at special Duotone rope....... I was flabbergasted: 2 meters of rope for EUR. 18,50 
!!!!!!
Personally I've thought for many years that the windsurfing industry is too wedded to almost annual updates of equipment. The design, marketing and changeover of manufacturing costs would probably be pretty steep. The other problem, as I understand it, is that you then have shops buying very small quantities of each bit of kit, which makes ordering and stocking a PITA and often ends up with "excess" stock still in hand which then has to be sold off at a discount because the new year's stock is coming in. I see Starboard have about 80 boards in the current lineup, most of them apparently new or modified; it seems that it would be hard to manage that lot effectively as a retailer, importer or producer given the small size of the market.
The other thing is just how much of the improvement in each year's board can we really notice. In 37 years the speed record has gone up from 38.86 knots to 53.27 which is about .4 knots or about 1% per year. Just assuming that the improvement in other areas like gybing is similar, that's an incredibly small amount for the typical good windsurfer to perceive in reality (which is completely different to thinking you've perceived it). In terms of say carving a tighter turn that obviously means just turning 5cm tighter in a 5m radius bottom turn. Given what psychologists find out when they blind test people to ascertain their senses, it's very very hard to believe that we can really feel that sort of difference - especially when in a year of sailing we should have significantly improved our own performance.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
just turning 5cm tighter in a 5m radius bottom turn.
Take my monieh, take my monieh! 
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
.. it's very very hard to believe that we can really feel that sort of difference - especially when in a year of sailing we should have significantly improved our own performance.
You must be young, or not have windsurfed a lot. Most windsurfers I see on the water have been at it for 40 years. It's extremely rare to see any significant performance improvements, unless someone switches disciplines (freeride to slalom or waves). For most, it's a struggle to stay at the level that they once were at, with age making that a loosing battle for most.
I agree with the other things you've said. I highly doubt that a properly blinded test would find significant improvements in most new releases. If I look at the gear that's on the water in, for example, Hatteras, then plenty of people have decided that old (and sometimes very old) gear works perfectly fine, or even better than new gear. For some, this may be due to budget constraints, but there are plenty of others were money is not an issue who only buy new gear when they have to because old gear is falling apart.
It's quite different in winging, though, where year-to-year improvements are often noticeable, and sometimes drastic. Plenty of wingers our there with $8K worth of gear from the last 2 years in their vans, and spending $15 K or 20K in a couple of years is not that unusual.
Select to expand quoteSideshore said..
Hello
I'm a 30 years wavesailor living in a light wind place so I've spent a lot of time of my life thinking of how to get into the water those light days without a monster sail. I've tried windsurf foiling but I didn't like to uphaul so I tried winging and It's perfect for flying in 12 knots with a 5m2 wing, not a 8 m2 heavy sail.
However, my very first and only love is wavesailing and this post pretends to be a help call. IMO, the main problem of windsurfing is not the complexity, size or weight of the equipment, but the prices. The feeling is uncomparable, and I've tried kitesurfing, wave supping and foiling.
I can find a new wing light board from last year at 500-600 euros, a wing at 450 euros and a complete foil at 600 euros. So, I can get a complete last year new winging equipment at 1500 euros. Which windsurfing equipment can you get new from last year at that price? Is a winging board so different from a windsurfing board? The foil tracks are very strengthened
A lot of time ago I used to buy last year new windsurfing boards at 1000 euros, now it's impossible. Nine years ago I began to buy only second hand boards in good condition at 800 euros. I will continue wavesailing even with very old repaired boards.
I guess the bigger the numbers the cheaper, but the prices were already very high before the arrival of winging.
One idea. Windsurfing manufacturers still use distributors than do nothing but make equipment much more expensive and don't add any value. For example, they sell second hand 4 years old boards at 1300 euros!!! One distributor per country for importing is enough. Internet selling works!! Gong has proved it.
I could be wrong, but manufacturers do know much more than me and do nothing. The only future of windsurfing is cheaper and more simple, not so many mast curves, not huge changes in the same board model from one year to another and even from one size to another in the same year....
I will suggest that you just buy from the brands that already are selling directly to costumers; a few examples:
Flikka boards (perhaps not cheap, but VERY high-end for a reasonable price). I have one, and are extremely satisfied.
Puls Boards (Polish custom brand; inexpensive; have not tried them, but they look interesting)
We One (distributed through Gunsails)
Sunova (perhaps not cheap, but very beautiful).
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..Chris 249 said..
.. it's very very hard to believe that we can really feel that sort of difference - especially when in a year of sailing we should have significantly improved our own performance.
You must be young, or not have windsurfed a lot. Most windsurfers I see on the water have been at it for 40 years. It's extremely rare to see any significant performance improvements, unless someone switches disciplines (freeride to slalom or waves). For most, it's a struggle to stay at the level that they once were at, with age making that a loosing battle for most.
I agree with the other things you've said. I highly doubt that a properly blinded test would find significant improvements in most new releases. If I look at the gear that's on the water in, for example, Hatteras, then plenty of people have decided that old (and sometimes very old) gear works perfectly fine, or even better than new gear. For some, this may be due to budget constraints, but there are plenty of others were money is not an issue who only buy new gear when they have to because old gear is falling apart.
It's quite different in winging, though, where year-to-year improvements are often noticeable, and sometimes drastic. Plenty of wingers our there with $8K worth of gear from the last 2 years in their vans, and spending $15 K or 20K in a couple of years is not that unusual.
That's a fair point about the fact that many of us are fighting against age, and in some disciplines like waves and freestyle it would be hard to improve as you age. On the other hand, even at 60 I find that when I concentrate on one discipline for a while in the lead-up to a major event I can still improve in some areas. I've windsurfed a lot since 1978, with places like top 20 in the worlds in slalom and top 3 nationally other classes. Even in the strictest one design classes, techiques are still evolving, and even while we're ageing there's still other areas we can improve on.
I've only tried winging once but I completely agree that in a newer sport like that, the equipment would be evolving quickly.
I'm a bit of a simmer fanboy but i can't help but think they are taking the piss. A quick price check has the simmer wave sail more expensive than the Severne blade and that's after simmers advertised 20% savings passed on because they are "taking action". not allowing for the postage from Europe which is very costly.
where did the savings go?
all a moot point anyways as almost all sizes are out of stock. Another fascinating development in windsurfing. No stock.
Simmer have a 2 cam freerace foil sail.
simmerstyle.com/product/2023-f-max/
The 7.5m is Euro 970
The XO Fly v2 last year was Euro 834.
It looks the same sail, although the Simmer is monofilm and the XO was x-ply/scrim.
XO were made in the same loft as Simmer, and I think there has been other sails of the same design between the 2 brands. Same as some Exocet boards and NoveNove. This has been going on for a few years. It makes sense for the smaller brands to spread development costs.
That said, Ben Proffit mentioned that Patrice had sold the brand, not sure when this happened. He invested loads revamping his brand just before covid hit. The sails particularly looked new and fresh and were well reviewed.
Xo is not a brand I'm familiar with.
in Australia all roads point to severne these days.
unfortunately Simmer is slowly disappearing from the Australian market and as such the used options are also drying up.
As my SeaBreeze name gives away Peter Thommen to me is quite a hero. It was therefore a joy to watch him being interviewed by Maciek Rutkowski:
?si=k4P1AZ6sdHNmLk1s
Select to expand quotePeterThommen said..
My 5 cents is that if the industry wants to survive, it will need to push volume. Volumes typically come at a lower margin.
There are several problems with this. One is that the barrier to entry is quite low; there are plenty of new brands that arose in the last 10 years or so, despite a shrinking market. Low barrier of entry makes it much harder for one brand to reach high volume. As it is, many of the smaller but relatively popular windsurf brands are "labor of love" companies, not profit machines.
The other one is that any youngster interested in water sports now has "better" alternatives. For anyone watching from the beach at most places, kiting and winging look more interesting. They are also easier to learn, and require less gear - gear that easily fits into a compact car or apartment.
I have been in the windsurfing industry my whole life from 18 years old until now. owning a shop still at 58. I can remember selling Windsurfer one design for $1,000 whenever brand new Holden Commodore was $8,000. so with inflation, I really don't think the sport is more expensive. true in the last few seasons that has been an increase, more than in previous years. In Brisbane in the late 80s and 90s there was at one stage 8 shops in the sport ,that was in the glory days of the sport ,hundreds sailing To a degree. winging is at that stage at the moment with so many players in the market but I'm sure in a season or so it will come back just like when windsurfing did. I think it is wrong to compare the cost of one sport to another comparing the price of a yacht to a windsurfer or one windsurfer to a powerboat. all I know is I know which one I'd rather be sailing....
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..
Keep in mind too that winging is in its honeymoon phase.
Like kiting and windsurfing before it, right now its what everyone wants to be doing. Lots of space on the market for the cheaper mass producers who perhaps are willing to cut some corners to reduce production costs.
I can't say i was there for it, but im sure windsurfing went through the same thing. lots of producers (some being crap but cheap) =cheap equipment as they try to beat each others prices. Sooner rather than later people stop buying the crap (because it breaks) and the cheaper producers run out of steam. As the grain gets sorted from the chaff and the winging craze subsides, prices will start to rise. The producers that were charging more for their higher quality product in the first place, will be in a position to bring their prices up more, because they have less competition to worry about. And all that is without talking about the fact that prices on EVERYTHING are going up anyway.
i don't think the diversification of windsurfing equipment is a good thing overall. I guess if manufacturers can keep tabs on what they are going be able to sell of what, they might do ok. But the whole thing looks like a volatile mess at the moment, with too many disciplines to cover. Niche sports inside an already niche sport.
Yep, that hits the nail squarely on the head. Good summation of the market.
I note with sports generally, that once an infrastructure is in place, then associated new sports can saturate that space. The originators suffer for a while before things come back to why we were doing it in the first place.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
Xo is not a brand I'm familiar with.
in Australia all roads point to severne these days.
unfortunately Simmer is slowly disappearing from the Australian market and as such the used options are also drying up.
I've had a quiver of xo shark sails for 2 seasons now. They get a lot of use between the wife and I and all are still going strong. No flash materials or texh, they just work. Hold their own against mates out on severne blades
I hear that the economic one design X15 wingfoiler is going to come in at around $10,000. That's making windsurfing look more reasonable by comparison!
At the moment wing foiling and foiling is going thru rapid evolution so a lot of R&D plus marketing is going into the sport. Compared to windsurfing, when was there a significant design change in board or sails? For boards I think it was around 2016-17 with the stubby/vanguard shapes coming in and then the subsequent working those designs into traditional boards. Since then it's been just sight tweaks, board range consolidation, material construction changes, graphic changes so not major expense evolution steps. Not sure when the last major sail evolution was maybe the 4 batten and 3 batten. Quite a while ago. Sail a board from 5yrs even 7 yrs ago is not very different from today. Weight hasn't dropped significantly. Foiling is massively different within 5yrs. So marketing, materials, business costs and shipping must be the cost driving factor in windsurf pricing. But a high quality foil board of modern cutting tech design from smik, sunova, kT are half the price of a windsurf board at present. Alot of materials, R&D etc are in the foil board. Maybe just the low volume of windsurf boards being made is the expensive bit when storage, shipping, business cost etc are added in.
The following are current range of prices for components for freeride gear for windsurfing and wing foiling from a large windsports retailer in Australia. Although components vary in price the range of cheapest to most expensive total costs are similar.
Windsurfing
Boards: $2000 to $3700
Sails: $900 to $1700
Ext/Mast/Boom: $1200 to $3000
Totals: $4100 to $8400
Wing Foiling
Boards: $1100 to $2500
Wings: $700 to $3700
Foil Set: $1900 to $3500
Totals: $3700 to $9700
I lived Southwest France world class over crowded surf beachbreak. Many old (50) moved to sup and or wing those last years. Because it's a light wind place most windsurfers, there were not a lot, moved to wing too. So know flatwater spots are overcrowded, parking full off high cost materials. Past here fanatic shop sold one or two windsurf board and ten sup a year. Know they grow, sell some sup and 50 wingboards. Seem to be the same every where in France, this is the wing r?volution, that's what they say at TV buisness news... (i come back to windsurfing after 20 years break, on custom hybrid raceboard with daggerboard, at 68kg it's best tool i find for freeriding in 5 to 25 knots wind)
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..
And I am saying if you want it cheaper you are going to pay for it in some fashion. ie you will get less for the less money you spend.
And I am saying that the psychology of this is not rational, everyone (yes it's a generality) wants it cheaper, but they dont want it inferior.
A different distribution method is already available, buy gun. Cheap sails, cheap distribution, cheaper materials, why don't they rule the world?
Actually, I think the example of Gun sails supports the idea that quality things can be less expensive. I don't sail Gun Sails, but I have seen them, looked closely and watched how they performed and lasted, and really, I don't see that they are any lesser quality, or use cheaper materials than almost all other sails on the market. They may not be quite as fashionable, but that is not the same thing as quality. And many props automatically equate expensive with quality, which is completely WRONG! Yes, some things ARE expensive because they do cost a lot more to make, but that is not always the case, and very often it is not. It's just marketing, and a lot of people fall for it.
There is a saying: "You get what you pay for" Implying that the more you pay, the more you get.
But my life experience is very different. My version is " You pay for what you get" and it has nothing much to do with quality a lot of the time. Some time I have bought things for a very attractive price that have turn out to the the best I have ever had, or at least as good as others much more expensive. 
In other words, the Gun selling model may be the way forward for other manufacturers to significantly reduce their prices and STILL offer very good quality. (as others have suggested).
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
One point, though, is that the $12k Laser can be sold for about 80% of its cost, or that was the way it went a while back. And a good $2-3k one will be able to be fairly competitive in national level Masters racing, win in most club fleets, and be sold for what it cost or very nearly. That's a lot cheaper than trying to maintain a full quiver of near-new windsurfing kit.
Yes, it boils down to 'One Design' Totally opposite from most windsurfing.
But if you compare with Windsurfer Class One Design equipment, is that more like Laser Sailing?
I like that windsurfing is not mainstream, cheap or easy. These are traits that sum up what's pretty sh!tty with western capitalism.
Get a job, work your arse off, then you can buy the latest gear. You probably won't have time to use it then. First world problem.
Select to expand quotesailquik said..sheddweller said..
And I am saying if you want it cheaper you are going to pay for it in some fashion. ie you will get less for the less money you spend.
And I am saying that the psychology of this is not rational, everyone (yes it's a generality) wants it cheaper, but they dont want it inferior.
A different distribution method is already available, buy gun. Cheap sails, cheap distribution, cheaper materials, why don't they rule the world?
Actually, I think the example of Gun sails supports the idea that quality things can be less expensive. I don't sail Gun Sails, but I have seen them, looked closely and watched how they performed and lasted, and really, I don't see that they are any lesser quality, or use cheaper materials than almost all other sails on the market. They may not be quite as fashionable, but that is not the same thing as quality. And many props automatically equate expensive with quality, which is completely WRONG! Yes, some things ARE expensive because they do cost a lot more to make, but that is not always the case, and very often it is not. It's just marketing, and a lot of people fall for it.
There is a saying: "You get what you pay for" Implying that the more you pay, the more you get.
But my life experience is very different. My version is " You pay for what you get" and it has nothing much to do with quality a lot of the time. Some time I have bought things for a very attractive price that have turn out to the the best I have ever had, or at least as good as others much more expensive.
In other words, the Gun selling model may be the way forward for other manufacturers to significantly reduce their prices and STILL offer very good quality. (as others have suggested).
The sail materials in gun are mostly of the cheaper variety.
They are not necessarily different from other sail manufacturers and i did not mean to infer that they were unusual in that, nearly everyone uses cheaper materials in at least some or all of their sails.
Some of the manufacturers do use more expensive materials, if Gun used those materials their sails would be more expensive, but probably still cheaper than the others.
Gunsails have become pretty decent.
Yes, they shun faff fancy wise...i like it. (They were early with full-on laminates a few editions ago)
They're durable and sail (and test) well. Longstanding development team which helps too imo.
Gun Sails uses a direct to consumer sales model which allows you to cut costs. Generally speaking if you have a country distributor as well as the shop you are probably seeing a mark up of at least 30% at each point. For smaller markets you probably don't have a distributor but you are faced with significantly higher logistics cost which means the shop has add a bigger margin.
I can't comment on their manufacturing and what materials they use but I bet most of their lower price stems from this direct to consumer sales model. The drawback of not having a country distributor is that their products are only available in high density markets like Europe.
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..
The sail materials in gun are mostly of the cheaper variety.
They are not necessarily different from other sail manufacturers and i did not mean to infer that they were unusual in that, nearly everyone uses cheaper materials in at least some or all of their sails.
Some of the manufacturers do use more expensive materials, if Gun used those materials their sails would be more expensive, but probably still cheaper than the others.
And 'more expensive' materials, does not necessarily correlate with 'better' at all! It could be, and often is just fancy coloured printing or colour infused mono film. Looks nice, but does nothing at all to performance or durability. 
My understanding is that even to get different coloured panels in a sail can be prohibitively expensive for a modest number sail run, because to buy a huge roll of a different colour cloth can run to tens of thousands of dollars!
In any case, my limited experience with sailmaking tells me that the cost of the materials in a sail is only a very tiny proportion of the cost of making and selling a sail. Negligible really. Most of the ex factory cost of sails is in the cost of construction. R and D costs. Prototypes and samples cost. Sponsorship costs big time. As does advertising. Distribution markups at more than one level adds to final price big time. Freight etc.
Having said that. It's still very convenient to have a real shop where I can go in and get parts and gear immediately when something gets smashed up or I need something different, without having to wait until the next bi-annual shipment. 
I guess that convenience is at least some justification for distributor and retail shop markups. We all want less expensive gear, but we also want our shops to survive for when we need them.
Select to expand quotesailquik said..
In any case, my limited experience with sailmaking tells me that the cost of the materials in a sail is only a very tiny proportion of the cost of making and selling a sail. Negligible really.
Same with boards. In the UK a full carbon board can be GBP400 more than a biaxial glass board. If you price up the cost of the carbon v glass, its not that much for a board because there isnt that much of it. But that small difference * manufacturers 30% * brands 30% * import tax ?% + importers 30% * shops 30% * VAT 20% mounts up quickly. Or whatever % they markup by.
Select to expand quotesailquik said..sheddweller said..
The sail materials in gun are mostly of the cheaper variety.
They are not necessarily different from other sail manufacturers and i did not mean to infer that they were unusual in that, nearly everyone uses cheaper materials in at least some or all of their sails.
Some of the manufacturers do use more expensive materials, if Gun used those materials their sails would be more expensive, but probably still cheaper than the others.
And 'more expensive' materials, does not necessarily correlate with 'better' at all! It could be, and often is just fancy coloured printing or colour infused mono film. Looks nice, but does nothing at all to performance or durability. My understanding is that even to get different coloured panels in a sail can be prohibitively expensive for a modest number sail run, because to buy a huge roll of a different colour cloth can run to tens of thousands of dollars!
In any case, my limited experience with sailmaking tells me that the cost of the materials in a sail is only a very tiny proportion of the cost of making and selling a sail. Negligible really. Most of the ex factory cost of sails is in the cost of construction. R and D costs. Prototypes and samples cost. Sponsorship costs big time. As does advertising. Distribution markups at more than one level adds to final price big time. Freight etc.
Having said that. It's still very convenient to have a real shop where I can go in and get parts and gear immediately when something gets smashed up or I need something different, without having to wait until the next bi-annual shipment. I guess that convenience is at least some justification for distributor and retail shop markups. We all want less expensive gear, but we also want our shops to survive for when we need them.
Yes true dat. Expensive materials and **** design don't necessarily beat great design and cheap materials.
But some cloths are literally 10 times+ the cost of others because of the materials used (not aesthetics).
It is easy to get to 50 USD per meter in sail cloth, how much do you think film costs?
So you can make a 5.0 for 10 USD dollars worth of film or 250 USD worth of sailcloth. Or anywhere in between depending on the make up and fibers in the cloth. In general more film and less fiber = cheaper, and more fiber and less film= more expensive.
