Hello
I'm a 30 years wavesailor living in a light wind place so I've spent a lot of time of my life thinking of how to get into the water those light days without a monster sail. I've tried windsurf foiling but I didn't like to uphaul so I tried winging and It's perfect for flying in 12 knots with a 5m2 wing, not a 8 m2 heavy sail.
However, my very first and only love is wavesailing and this post pretends to be a help call. IMO, the main problem of windsurfing is not the complexity, size or weight of the equipment, but the prices. The feeling is uncomparable, and I've tried kitesurfing, wave supping and foiling.
I can find a new wing light board from last year at 500-600 euros, a wing at 450 euros and a complete foil at 600 euros. So, I can get a complete last year new winging equipment at 1500 euros. Which windsurfing equipment can you get new from last year at that price? Is a winging board so different from a windsurfing board? The foil tracks are very strengthened
A lot of time ago I used to buy last year new windsurfing boards at 1000 euros, now it's impossible. Nine years ago I began to buy only second hand boards in good condition at 800 euros. I will continue wavesailing even with very old repaired boards.
I guess the bigger the numbers the cheaper, but the prices were already very high before the arrival of winging.
One idea. Windsurfing manufacturers still use distributors than do nothing but make equipment much more expensive and don't add any value. For example, they sell second hand 4 years old boards at 1300 euros!!! One distributor per country for importing is enough. Internet selling works!! Gong has proved it.
I could be wrong, but manufacturers do know much more than me and do nothing. The only future of windsurfing is cheaper and more simple, not so many mast curves, not huge changes in the same board model from one year to another and even from one size to another in the same year....
Winging is a very young sport.
The old equipment is obsoleted by the improved performance of the new equipment every couple of seasons.
The second hand prices may be good for you. But buying new wing gear now that's worth not alot in 2 years time sucks. A $2000 wing board that's worth $600 (70% depreciation) a single design cycle later isn't always a good thing for the market long term.
Compare that to fin windsurfing. The designs are pretty mature and only improve a few % each year. The performance gap between a 3 year old board and a new one (which is often only a very minor design tweak) isn't alot for a recreational windsurfer.
So a $3500 new windsurfing Board that's worth $2100 aus dollars a design cycle later (40% depreciation) is probably pretty closely aligned to other mature equipment sports.
I think the issue you are really referring to is how much a windsurf board costs new in the first place (there's lots of other threads on that) and also that fin windsurf board design development has taken a back seat and become stagnant while brands work on foiling products, which is where their current sales $$ is.
High prices are a big problem but not the only one. The main issue could be learning curve of the sport: being hard, physically demanding, the size of an entry level board, etc.
The smaller the sail and board the better it gets but yesterday had an amazing session on a 7.8 e_pace (normally my biggest size 6.5) in about 10knots plus gusts. I could be kiting but still prefer go windsurfing over kitesurfing even with the big stuff.
My experience is that a lot of people say they want cheaper windsurfing equipment and that the sport is too expensive. However when you offer them cheaper equipment, they don't buy it. This is because what they mean is that they want EXPENSIVE equipment at a cheap price, this is not going to happen.
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..
My experience is that a lot of people say they want cheaper windsurfing equipment and that the sport is too expensive. However when you offer them cheaper equipment, they don't buy it. This is because what they mean is that they want EXPENSIVE equipment at a cheap price, this is not going to happen.
What would you consider cheaper gear?
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..
when you offer them cheaper equipment, they don't buy it. This is because what they mean is that they want EXPENSIVE equipment at a cheap price, this is not going to happen.
don't try to be clever like jeff bezos .. he's simply querying if good quality brand name gear can be cheaper.
when you say 'expensive equipment', you mean 'good quality brand name equipment'.
when you say 'it's not going to happen' .. well that's the point of his thread, so just stating that you disagree .. well I guess that keeps it simple, but he's challenging that .. thanks for letting us know you disagree.
at least Simmer are trying with their 'price revolution' marketing stategy ... I assume Sideshore is putting his money where his mouth is and supporting and buying Simmer ...
simmerstyle.com/
For some time now, custom gear has been cheaper then production here. (Boards, sails not so much)
Just look at a standard piece of equipment, say a nice generic carbon extension with some defining characteristics, and look what some brands charge for it..prices vary 25-33% . The cheapest actually includes 1m formuline rope.
Not that it costs much, but gets you the idea the flagrant greedflators also happily provide you the nastiest cheap rope. :)
The answer is: Gong = l'Ours, btw and i don't think i'd own an epoxy surfboard without His Oursness indeed.
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..
My experience is that a lot of people say they want cheaper windsurfing equipment and that the sport is too expensive. However when you offer them cheaper equipment, they don't buy it. This is because what they mean is that they want EXPENSIVE equipment at a cheap price, this is not going to happen.
In my case I think the boards and sails models since 2014 are very good performance and quality, and I have never bought full carbon boards because they are very rigid in choppy coditions and I don't need so light boards, average weight are good enough for me. The last board I've bought last year is a Quatro cube from 2016, very good board
Select to expand quoteJakeNN said..
Who is Gong?
Gong is a french manufacturer of Kitesurfing, surfing supping and winging equipment. They work without distributors, only online shopping.
Select to expand quoteJakeNN said..sheddweller said..
when you offer them cheaper equipment, they don't buy it. This is because what they mean is that they want EXPENSIVE equipment at a cheap price, this is not going to happen.
don't try to be clever like jeff bezos .. he's simply querying if good quality brand name gear can be cheaper.
when you say 'expensive equipment', you mean 'good quality brand name equipment'.
when you say 'it's not going to happen' .. well that's the point of his thread, so just stating that you disagree .. well I guess that keeps it simple, but he's challenging that .. thanks for letting us know you disagree.
at least Simmer are trying with their 'price revolution' marketing stategy ... I assume Sideshore is putting his money where his mouth is and supporting and buying Simmer ...
simmerstyle.com/
Thank you for the information about Simmer. Very good initiative. Anyhow I respect all the opinions including those against mine, no need to refer to anybody's mouth.
On the other hand I'm the end customer, I don't have to support anybody, the brands must do what they decide to survive, this is market. I guess they think they can make money increasing the price as the units sold decrease, it's a short view strategy, bad for windsurfing survive. In spite of this, I've teached windsurfing to all my family (4) and buy equipment continously for two of us. I always inform new people about the incredible feeling of windsurfing and the disadvantages of winging. I prefer to support the sport, not private companies, and give my money to charity.
I've given enough real data to compare, the winging boards have the same technology of average windsurfing boards, good weigths and rigidity. The number of likes of my initial comment means there are more people who thinks like me.
Select to expand quoteJakeNN said..sheddweller said..
when you offer them cheaper equipment, they don't buy it. This is because what they mean is that they want EXPENSIVE equipment at a cheap price, this is not going to happen.
don't try to be clever like jeff bezos .. he's simply querying if good quality brand name gear can be cheaper.
when you say 'expensive equipment', you mean 'good quality brand name equipment'.
when you say 'it's not going to happen' .. well that's the point of his thread, so just stating that you disagree .. well I guess that keeps it simple, but he's challenging that .. thanks for letting us know you disagree.
at least Simmer are trying with their 'price revolution' marketing stategy ... I assume Sideshore is putting his money where his mouth is and supporting and buying Simmer ...
simmerstyle.com/
dont be a rude ****wit, there is no need.
I design and make things for a living, my personal experience with customers is what i stated above. I have done this. Asked them what they want to pay, then designed and made the product to fit that price point. Afterwards they have told me, no, i dont want that one, i want your other one, that's more expensive to make, with more expensive materials, but i want it at the cheaper price. It does not work like that.
Fundamentally i agree that windsurfing has got very expensive, so if you want it cheaper start buying the cheaper equipment- it is available. You can buy a 4.7 Gun sails seal for 499 euro.
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..Asked them what they want to pay, then designed and made the product to fit that price point. Afterwards they have told me, no, i dont want that one, i want your other one, that's more expensive to make, with more expensive materials, but i want it at the cheaper price. It does not work like that.
but that's his whole point .. it should be cheaper .. how can they make it cheaper?
change distribution strategy?
reduce marketing costs?
optimise demand & supply equilibrium (eg cheaper prices will increase demand to offset higher percentage of fixed costs?
research new materials for sails and boards?
cobra efficiency improvements?
etc
Just saying that you disagree is fine .. no need to overcomplicate if you disagree.
I have not seen much differences in the prices for different water categories. Windsurfing boards and Windfoiling boards seem to be around 3000 euro (when brand new) and on top of that you'll need a foil for the windfoiling board.
Wingboards are around 2500 euro, e.g. the Starboard X-15 while an Armstrong downwind is around 2700 euro.
I don't think that anyone would really buy these directly from the shop at those prices? It seems to be all about pre-ordering these days, or you wait until they are a year or two and the prices are reduced in order to market the newer products.
My AHD Compact 83 foil board is 2 years old now. Its had some hard use as a complete foiling beginner. Full carbon. I was worried about breaking the nose so added Unifiber nose protector + some glass reinforcement. Many catapults, no damage apart from paint chips. I think I overdid the reinforcement. Foil box still solid. A few harness hook marks from clambering back on the board. A footpad started to lift off on 1 edge. I dont see any need for an upgrade to the board to a 'better' one. The design I bought in 2021 is still in use now, and I doubt will be updated for a while, they keep their models a few years.
AHD dont do the PWA or have many 'team riders' & dont spend much on advertising.
The board now costs GBP1499 (1299 in 2021 when I bought it new). Most other brand's carbon decked boards are GBP2100+
Select to expand quoteJakeNN said..sheddweller said..Asked them what they want to pay, then designed and made the product to fit that price point. Afterwards they have told me, no, i dont want that one, i want your other one, that's more expensive to make, with more expensive materials, but i want it at the cheaper price. It does not work like that.
but that's his whole point .. it should be cheaper .. how can they make it cheaper?
change distribution strategy?
reduce marketing costs?
optimise demand & supply equilibrium (eg cheaper prices will increase demand to offset higher percentage of fixed costs?
research new materials for sails and boards?
cobra efficiency improvements?
etc
Just saying that you disagree is fine .. no need to overcomplicate if you disagree.
And I am saying if you want it cheaper you are going to pay for it in some fashion. ie you will get less for the less money you spend.
And I am saying that the psychology of this is not rational, everyone (yes it's a generality) wants it cheaper, but they dont want it inferior.
A different distribution method is already available, buy gun. Cheap sails, cheap distribution, cheaper materials, why don't they rule the world?
Windsurfing is cheap compared to other sports, cycling is huge but top of the line bikes your still paying big $$
I have been watching this debate and agree windsurfing equipment has become expensive BUT you get what you paid for... For Instance I am coming back into wave sailing from Kite Boarding (Wave riding) just recently. I have queried a lot of boards in Australia and was blown away about production board prices from Duotone, Goya, JP etc. Then I thought I would get a custom board from Mark OZ from WA... Now I have to say Mark OZ prices are really great and here is why... I am in Victoria the other side of Australia and he can talk to me about the board I would like and make it specifically for my sailing style, Weight (FAT) and conditions. I am saving my pennies ATM as we are moving down the coast to Geelong - Torquay (Yes where Jason Polakow JP now Goya lived all of his life- Point Danger is the best place to sail). Mark only makes boards nothing else - I will pay for quality over hype...
I am going to put this in perspective. My Cousin and his boys ride motocross -
50 yr Old man - KTM 400 New $14,000 or so
14 Yr Old Rider - Yamaha 250 Newish $12,000 plus rebuilds when he races
8 Yr Old Rider - Yamaha 125 Secondhandish $9,000 plus rebuilds when he races
Enclosed Motorbike Trailer - Pretty Wizzband with Camping area and Racing Garage - $22,000
Let Alone the stupid Landcruiser 79 Series he tows it with $180,000
Servicing of those bikes - At least $4000 a year including parts - Yes they do a lot of the work themselves
Paying to go to races - At least $5000 a year let alone the club days and track days
They change their gear at least every 2 - 3 years
Again its what you are willing to pay. I do understand that distributors get a cut BUT the way GONG has gone about it is indeed the future but if they were DUOTONE sales they would have distributors helping them along internationally. I have worked in the major surf brands in Australia and Overseas and now I am a teacher. If you knew how much surf Brands payed for their products before you went to a retailer you would flip a table. ITS ALL DOWN TO MARKETING.... If you are not into the bells and whistles (MARKETING) and dont listen to the hype. Contact guys like Mark OZ but make the same product but better then you pay less for that expertise- its pretty simple...
Sorry for having this rant I have not posted on here for a looooong time....
Select to expand quoteSurferKris said..
I have not seen much differences in the prices for different water categories. Windsurfing boards and Windfoiling boards seem to be around 3000 euro (when brand new) and on top of that you'll need a foil for the windfoiling board.
Wingboards are around 2500 euro, e.g. the Starboard X-15 while an Armstrong downwind is around 2700 euro.
I don't think that anyone would really buy these directly from the shop at those prices? It seems to be all about pre-ordering these days, or you wait until they are a year or two and the prices are reduced in order to market the newer products.
Some of the top wingdfoil brands catalog prices (top quality) are: 1400 ? (LTE Beluga RRD ), 1700 ? (Tabou Pocket Team), 1800 ? (JP winger PRO). If you look at similar volume windsurf boards almost double the price: 2500 ? (RRD hardcorewave), 2.700 ? (Tabou da curve) and 2.700 ? (JP magic wave). The downwind boards you mention are the more exclusive, fashion and expensive in foil world, they are much more expensive than the rest of models by far.
Anyway, if you have the money to pay several boards and sails at these prices for all your family, I'm happy for you, but it's difficult that a bunch of customers could maintain the industry for years. I think I've shown real comparison data and, in my opinion, we all should be concerned about the future of the sport. It's a complex and too expensive sport comparing to others, and, though it's the best one, almost nobody will know it briefly.
My wing board (2022 Duotone Sky Wing) is an absolute piece of crap. Ask me how I know. I had to saw it in half for warranty. The paper thin laminate rails started to crack just from use. My replacement is no better. They have changed construction since...because they had to. Don't get me started on bladder leaks and blown out canopies on my wings. The foil side is now great (I use Axis), but had major issues with old Slingshot HG and Starboard.
I am hopeful wing gear will get as good as my windsurf gear is in terms of longevity of design and quality.
Winging is winning because it has broader appeal, can be done in more conditions, and is less bulky, and is much less strenuous. Expense is a factor, but it is not the main one. I fear windsurfing is going to fade. I will always do it, because it is such a important thing to me, but I am now not sure the 16 year old me would pick it up as a sport.
Well said Happy G ,
When you go to a car lot to buy a car ,the dream cars you want to buy and the ones you can afford ,
for the thrill that you get out of windsurfing it is still ok if you are not a competitor and need to up grade as everything has gone up NOT just windsurfing
some of the second hand gear on sea breeze are very affordable ,and top quality .
I think sometimes the second hand gear is a gift at times due to the generous windsurfing dudes on here
I brought 3 second things on here and saved 2000 because the where used ,(fins sails ,) but carbon and 2020 race sails ,so I took that 2000 added 1000 and brought a new board .LOL .
I TRY not to complain about prices ,as we are still lucky enough to have high end gear available to buy
if and when we can afford it .I went shopping with my mother the other day and her friends they spent
3-4 grand worth of clothes 2 bags full of sheet .,I spent that and walked away with a car full .every time I go windsurfing I walk away with a big smile and a buzz that lasts for 3 days ,how much is that worth ,
Select to expand quoteMHSA said..
Winging is a very young sport.
The old equipment is obsoleted by the improved performance of the new equipment every couple of seasons.
The second hand prices may be good for you. But buying new wing gear now that's worth not alot in 2 years time sucks. A $2000 wing board that's worth $600 (70% depreciation) a single design cycle later isn't always a good thing for the market long term.
Compare that to fin windsurfing. The designs are pretty mature and only improve a few % each year. The performance gap between a 3 year old board and a new one (which is often only a very minor design tweak) isn't alot for a recreational windsurfer.
So a $3500 new windsurfing Board that's worth $2100 aus dollars a design cycle later (40% depreciation) is probably pretty closely aligned to other mature equipment sports.
I think the issue you are really referring to is how much a windsurf board costs new in the first place (there's lots of other threads on that) and also that fin windsurf board design development has taken a back seat and become stagnant while brands work on foiling products, which is where their current sales $$ is.
Windsurfing gear is crazy expensive. Especially in Australia and we have limited choices.
However, so is everything else!
Quality Mountain bike 5-7k
Paragliding wing5.5k
Typical wrack of climbing gear is 2k
Surfboard $6-800
Ever tried to compete in a performance dinghy class eg cherub or 49er ..phew! You will grab your windsurfing gear and run. Many dinghy clubs now 'sponsor ' (i.e pay) for people to attend and to freight their gear to events for them, its the only way they can survive. If you bust any component go have a look at prices in Whitworths or on line, eg for an item as common as a tiller extension, $200 for carbon $75 for aluminium .for a tube and a plastic handle!
One of the most successful and simple fleets worldwide , the laser still has massive following in comparison to windsurfing , they will set you back 12k and anyone who wants to be at the top will swap out yearly. Secondhand even a 35 year old one will get you 2k.
Sport is expensive, retail is in trouble with distribution methods worldwide being reimagined. Im disappointed when I go to any shop and there is nothing there but that's the modern way. The alternative is Bunnings or IKEA, cheap crap sold at a price point.
Winging is new, selling out the door of warehouses, and in demand, hence the better prices, windsurfing is in decline, and lacks the critical mass of numbers to sustain pressure on prices, we have to face we are in a neash sport.
Yes I want quality gear at inexpensive prices, but I'm dreaming.
Second hand gear prices drop in a reverse j curve - linked to age so you can get gear for less but its older more dinged/damaged and less trustworthy, regardless what anyone says our gear is fragile and does not age particularly well, so you pay for what you get.
In my opinion there is at least 2 types of windsurfers:
1. The ones that want the shiny new toys (guilty as charged)
2. The ones that are doing it on a budget.
I get the satisfaction of going out on the water and having fun (as does the budget windsurfer) but I also enjoy trying the latest (and hopefully) greatest.
Windsurfing doesn't have to break the bank but it is still not low cost. Where I will buy a 900 euro sail and a 600 euro mast to go with it, I have mates that buy a 4 year old used sail for about 300,- and use their old masts. Same for boards. When we all go for a session, I am 100% sure that the grins on our faces are priceless. Everybody happy.
Now compared to winging, windsurfing is expensive. If only for the masts that you have to buy extra, but still winging isn't cheap. I think the prices of second hand windsurfing gear is going down because of winging. There are a lot of people buying into winging and sell some of their windsurfing gear.
If you want an affordable sport you can choose to go running, buy a pair of shoes and Bob's your uncle. Yes there are more expensive sports as well, I also do road cycling and with a top of the range bicycle and all the kit needed you'll brake the bank. What it comes down to is what you want to do and how much you want/can spend on it. The fun factor will be pretty much the same.
For somebody trying to 'pick' a sport, windsurfing might not be a hard sell. Too much gear needed and again not cheap.
Simmer Style now sells their products directly from their website at reasonable prices. The new Evoq appears to have improved build quality and longevity.
Ka/Tribal have been online for 10-15 years. Carbon Art boards the same. You just have to look
Select to expand quoteSideshore said..
Some of the top wingdfoil brands catalog prices (top quality) are: 1400 ? (LTE Beluga RRD ), 1700 ? (Tabou Pocket Team), 1800 ? (JP winger PRO). If you look at similar volume windsurf boards almost double the price: 2500 ? (RRD hardcorewave), 2.700 ? (Tabou da curve) and 2.700 ? (JP magic wave). The downwind boards you mention are the more exclusive, fashion and expensive in foil world, they are much more expensive than the rest of models by far.
It sounds like you are comparing entry-level, or main stream, wingboards to the highest performance windsurfing boards. Entry-level windsurfing boards are much cheaper, e.g. the Simmer AMP is 1450 euro on their web-site.
I'm not trying to defend the cost of windsurfing gear, if one corrects for inflation I think that windsurfing boards have still increased in cost by 80-100%, during the last 20 years. Personally I have not bought a single new board at full cost in my +30 years of windsurfing.
My 1st GBP1000 board was an AHD freeride in 1996. I think it was the lesser construction, not full carbon like the blue AHD boards at that time. Inflation puts that at GBP2286 now. The lesser biaxial glass boards in the UK are around GBP1900-2000. The cost of shipping from Thailand/China/Vietnam etc due to covid accounts for a large proportion of recent rises. Prices should drop now shipping costs are falling.
The prices for freeride kit in the UK for 2024 havent been announced yet by some brands. Those which have are usually the same as last year. Duotone have dropped the price of their sails by GBP10. Yes, a tenner off last years.
A few outlets have 20% off last years kit (if its actually available, I havent checked). At some outlets if you want new kit it has to be ordered in from the European warehouses.
Select to expand quotechoco said..
Windsurfing is cheap compared to other sports, cycling is huge but top of the line bikes your still paying big $$
But very few people buy those "halo" bikes. They represent a tiny fraction of the market (allegedly about 2%), even out of those who race or buy good road bikes. That makes them a minute proportion of all bikes, since so many are cheap K Mart types.
The typical new windsurfing kit is dramatically more expensive than the typical new bike. You could turn up to a typical club race with a new $1500-$2500 bike and no one would blink an eye. My used bikes (carbon frame, second-from-top groupset, cheap wheels) cost less than a third of what a typical new sail, or even a good used sail, costs and the guys I race with think they're nice classics. If you spend a similar amount ($500-600) on windsurfing kit you don't get much at all.
Select to expand quotepeterowensbabs said..
One of the most successful and simple fleets worldwide , the laser still has massive following in comparison to windsurfing , they will set you back 12k and anyone who wants to be at the top will swap out yearly. Secondhand even a 35 year old one will get you 2k.
One point, though, is that the $12k Laser can be sold for about 80% of its cost, or that was the way it went a while back. And a good $2-3k one will be able to be fairly competitive in national level Masters racing, win in most club fleets, and be sold for what it cost or very nearly. That's a lot cheaper than trying to maintain a full quiver of near-new windsurfing kit.
Keep in mind too that winging is in its honeymoon phase.
Like kiting and windsurfing before it, right now its what everyone wants to be doing. Lots of space on the market for the cheaper mass producers who perhaps are willing to cut some corners to reduce production costs.
I can't say i was there for it, but im sure windsurfing went through the same thing. lots of producers (some being crap but cheap) =cheap equipment as they try to beat each others prices. Sooner rather than later people stop buying the crap (because it breaks) and the cheaper producers run out of steam. As the grain gets sorted from the chaff and the winging craze subsides, prices will start to rise. The producers that were charging more for their higher quality product in the first place, will be in a position to bring their prices up more, because they have less competition to worry about. And all that is without talking about the fact that prices on EVERYTHING are going up anyway.
i don't think the diversification of windsurfing equipment is a good thing overall. I guess if manufacturers can keep tabs on what they are going be able to sell of what, they might do ok. But the whole thing looks like a volatile mess at the moment, with too many disciplines to cover. Niche sports inside an already niche sport.
WIngboard can be made with simpler construction since there's a lot less stress on the boards. This change only a bit when wingers start to jump - but by then, they tend to be on very small boards, which are cheaper to make. At the "big air" events in Fuerte last year, it was quite obvious that the force with which windsurfers hit the water after a high jump was a lot higher that when wingers drifted down slowly, and then had a small foil hit the water first, almost like a shock absorber. My SB 115 wing board was only $1200 - at full list price. It's their cheapest construction, and probably a couple of kg heavier than their best construction, but perfectly fine for winging, and surprisingly robust. In a windsurf board, the extra weight would definitely be more noticeable. I've bought a couple of other wing boards before that that were similar price, or even cheaper. That's new wing boards for the price of a well-used windsurf board.
As for used boards, it's simple: wingers progress quickly, and then often want to switch to smaller or better designed (e.g. downwind) boards. So there's a lot of boards that are sold within a year of their original purchase. Anyone buying a windsurf board for waves, in contrast, is quite likely to sail it for a long time. The only boards that come on the market are from people who have to or want to stop windsurfing, or buy new gear often. Buying new gear often is quite common in winging, where gear improvements from year to year are very noticeable; gear improvements in windsurfing from year ro year are very marginal, after a few decades of development.
