Select to expand quoteMikeyS said..
A point so subtle that many overlook it, is that the COLREGs DO NOT GIVE ANYONE THE RIGHT OF WAY OVER SOMEONE ELSE. The rules don't talk about someone having right of way over someone else, but unfortunately that seems to be the mindset. The ultimate rule is that you must do everything to avoid a collision, even if someone else is supposed to be giving way to you. Having someone meant to give way to you DOES NOT give you right of way. It imposes an obligation on a "burdened" or "give way" vessel, not a RIGHT to the "privileged" or "stand on" vessel.
I won't be wasting billable time by arguing this with anyone.
Tot Agree
The simply fundamental is the more time one spends on the water, the more skill and experience, the more responsibility to others, not the other way around
I think you will find in my original comment that I took evasive action x3. It is has a lot to do with the problem when less experienced sailors come together.
It is the problem of not knowing what the kite or windsurfer is going to do. At least with the rules in place it is far easier to predict. We all get it wrong occasionally when dealing with extreme conditions, so this the reason for this post to reduce many of the possibilities that are under our control, such as reading the rules of safe boating.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
If ever there was a case for a 'sticky' thread at the top of each forum this is it.
Kiters need a right of way article at the top of their forum permanently. Time and again they are dumbfounded when we mention it, some take it on board but many get argumentative about how it is dumb, or hard to know, or why should I....?
Unbelievable.
I often refer to windsurfing as "sailing". I've never heard a kiter refer to themselves as a sailor (nor should they)... hence the problem.
Kiters, boogers and scooters... all kooks as far as I'm concerned.
Select to expand quoteN1GEL said..Mark _australia said..
If ever there was a case for a 'sticky' thread at the top of each forum this is it.
Kiters need a right of way article at the top of their forum permanently. Time and again they are dumbfounded when we mention it, some take it on board but many get argumentative about how it is dumb, or hard to know, or why should I....?
Unbelievable.
I often refer to windsurfing as "sailing". I've never heard a kiter refer to themselves as a sailor (nor should they)... hence the problem.
Kiters, boogers and scooters... all kooks as far as I'm concerned.
what would class a windsurfer anymore a sailor than someone who competed on a foil or race board in YA sanctioned kiting events ?
Curious to hear your reasoning apart from some resentment towards all kiters .
Dusta, and others,
This is not a thread that compares windsurfers to kiters and other sailors.
To keep it on track we all can contribute to those in our chosen sport to gain knowledge of and adhere to the rules.
The initial point raised was that there has been numerous incidents involving kites not knowing the rules, and thus unknowingly it seems, causing some quite close calls in windy conditions.
I have had situations with other windsurfers as well, but it makes about 5% of the total to date, as opposed to kite situations 60% and the remaining 35% we can all attribute to the jet ski mentality (been run over twice).
Contribute by helping with a solution, The NSWKBA on the kite thread has said they will put the rules upfront on their website. There's a good idea.
Select to expand quotedusta said..
N1GEL said..
Mark _australia said..
If ever there was a case for a 'sticky' thread at the top of each forum this is it.
Kiters need a right of way article at the top of their forum permanently. Time and again they are dumbfounded when we mention it, some take it on board but many get argumentative about how it is dumb, or hard to know, or why should I....?
Unbelievable.
I often refer to windsurfing as "sailing". I've never heard a kiter refer to themselves as a sailor (nor should they)... hence the problem.
Kiters, boogers and scooters... all kooks as far as I'm concerned.
what would class a windsurfer anymore a sailor than someone who competed on a foil or race board in YA sanctioned kiting events ?
Curious to hear your reasoning apart from some resentment towards all kiters .
You've missed the point as per the previous post. But to state the obvious for you, windsurfing uses a "SAIL", kiting uses a kite... therefore I assume (and I only assume, 'cause I don't know any tee-baggers) that kiters don't feel they need to follow the rules because they don't associate with sailors. I liken it to jetskis not following boating rules. Ka'peesh??
thanks for the red thumbs.
no no i haven't missed the point . I totally understand his anger towards kiters but not all kiters ignore the rules . Alot of kiters who aren't the usual teabaggers come from a sailing background and understand and abide by the rules . From sailing out on the swan river i see and dodge more stink boats you don't understand or give a fark about right of way .
By all means keep up the red thumbs but there are some kiters out there that respect and can sail in harmony with windsurfers . Not all of us are ignorant and actually enjoy ripping along the water with windsurfers equally enjoying our time out on the water .
I think the big difference here is the kiters who have a sailing background and ride boards such as formula or foil compared to say a weekend warrior or freestyler who aren't taught about ROW or just simply don't give a flying f#ck
Nigel.... really!
A kite is a sail. It is the same. We are all getting blown around by the wind.
A windsurfer sail is a foil used to transfer wind energy. A kite is a foil used to transfer wind energy.
There is no difference. Mentally, maybe by some.
A sail on a yacht is a foil and is used to transfer wind energy into forward motion.
Select to expand quoteFez said..
Nigel.... really!
A kite is a sail. It is the same. We are all getting blown around by the wind.
A windsurfer sail is a foil used to transfer wind energy. A kite is a foil used to transfer wind energy.
There is no difference. Mentally, maybe by some.
A sail on a yacht is a foil and is used to transfer wind energy into forward motion.
Sure Fez, but, foils ain't foils 
...my point was that maybe kiters don't see themselves as having to abide by sailing rules. I'm only trying to provide an answer as to why that is. I can only postulate because I don't know jack about kiting, nor do I care to.
Select to expand quoteN1GEL said..
Fez said..
Nigel.... really!
A kite is a sail. It is the same. We are all getting blown around by the wind.
A windsurfer sail is a foil used to transfer wind energy. A kite is a foil used to transfer wind energy.
There is no difference. Mentally, maybe by some.
A sail on a yacht is a foil and is used to transfer wind energy into forward motion.
Sure Fez, but, foils ain't foils
...my point was that maybe kiters don't see themselves as having to abide by sailing rules. I'm only trying to provide an answer as to why that is. I can only postulate because I don't know jack about kiting, nor do I care to.
Not all kiters are teabaggers as you say . Some kiters race week in week out at a sailing club , abiding by sailing rules and run standard sailing courses . Well this happens in WA anyway, unsure about the rest of the country but my point is nigel you obviously are one of those windsurfers who has had bad runins with an ignorant kiter and i will admit there are plenty of those about BUT there are also plenty of arrogant windsurfers out there who deliberately bear down on a kiter who has right of way .
I have had it happen to me at melville by a bald headed idiotic windsurfer who has anger issues . I abide by the rules of the sea and always give a windsurfer plenty of room if they seem to be uncomfortable with me coming so close , most of the guys at melville know kiters on certain boards aren't actually a threat but i can understand their concern for the majority of kiters .
I know you are giving all my posts red thumbs nigel but just chill out mate :)
hahahaha red thumb'd . good onyas .
kiters and windsurfers can play together
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Western-Australia/King-of-Carnac/
Select to expand quotewaveslave said..
"Damn, too many stickers. Can't see those pesky kiters through my sail window."
Select to expand quoteMikeyS said..
A point so subtle that many overlook it, is that the COLREGs DO NOT GIVE ANYONE THE RIGHT OF WAY OVER SOMEONE ELSE. The rules don't talk about someone having right of way over someone else, but unfortunately that seems to be the mindset. The ultimate rule is that you must do everything to avoid a collision, even if someone else is supposed to be giving way to you. Having someone meant to give way to you DOES NOT give you right of way. It imposes an obligation on a "burdened" or "give way" vessel, not a RIGHT to the "privileged" or "stand on" vessel.
I won't be wasting billable time by arguing this with anyone.
Excellent post and spot on. Remember, unless you are racing, the ISAF sailing rules do not apply. COLREGS do. Everybody who goes onto the water should read and understand them.
people who drive on the street have some knowledge of the rules cuz they have at least passed a written and a practical test
some people have done additional lessons or training
this entitles them to a "permit"
seems sailors in a boat over a certain size/length also require some kind of "permit"
if you want other water vehicles to have an idea of the "rules", guess what
that requires a permit and perhaps some enforcement
NOT sure I am ready for that
so, watch what you wish for !!!
for now - it's pirates on the sea !!!
and yes - try to avoid collisions
Select to expand quotejoe windsurf said..
...
seems sailors in a boat over a certain size/length also require some kind of "permit"
...
In WA, no sailor is required to have a permit, only powerboat skippers over 15hp.
Select to expand quotewaveslave said..waveslave said..
"Damn, too many stickers. Can't see those pesky kiters through my sail window."
This guy generally only needs to look backwards 
Select to expand quoteFez said...
...
The initial point raised was that there has been numerous incidents involving kites not knowing the rules, and thus unknowingly it seems, causing some quite close calls in windy conditions.
I have had situations with other windsurfers as well, but it makes about 5% of the total to date, as opposed to kite situations 60% and the remaining 35% we can all attribute to the jet ski mentality (been run over twice).
...
Fez, I feel your pain, really I do, but I think you're howling up the wrong tree. For a start, you need to look at your own behaviour. In my 18 years of windsurfing and 16 years of kiteboarding I have had two collisions or near misses, and that is really stretching the definition of collision or near miss.
Each year I might have 1-2-3-4 cases of "I think that person came a bit closer than I would have liked." but none of them were close to being incidents.Select to expand quoteFez said...
...
A kite is a sail. It is the same. We are all getting blown around by the wind.
A windsurfer sail is a foil used to transfer wind energy. A kite is a foil used to transfer wind energy.
There is no difference....
Seriously? The differences in the performance envelope within the types of wing, and across the different types is huge. It's even greater when you factor in the board and rider skill. Lumping them in together is not realistic or practical.
The solution to this is really quite simple. Everybody needs to ride with an attitude of avoiding accident and incident. The more skilled you are and the more power you have the greater your responsibility is to compensate for the lack of skill and control of others.
The sea is big. Once you have launched there is no reason at all to keep running back and forth in the same spot. Get out there and use the skill and power you have to experience it all.
You have many good points, but I think Fez is referring to a specific little piece of sand bar that protrudes and is only a few hundred meters long. There's many obstacles like oyster beds, reo, old sunken boats and many more nasties to avoid. It's like Mark mentioned, you can harp on about a particular spot, but unless you sail there you wouldn't know how it works. My understanding of this spot is that there's a very fine line between flat speed water and the chop from the river that flows beside it. It's a tight spot even for windsurfing
Gorgo,
I sailed the bank at Burrum Heads, Qld for the first time last weekend with approx 20 other windsurfers. I knew 1/3 of them. The area sailed is long but narrow, hence there was regular interaction of windsurfers travelling at speed towards each other on opposite tacks. The Port / Starboard rule was observed by all sailors I interacted with and as a consequence I knew with certainly what direction they were going to take to prevent a collision (either upwind or downwind) at each crossing. This certainty comes from all sailors knowing and applying the rules.
Threads like this are such a waste of time, you're not going to fix anything by ranting and swearing about it. The kiters, jetskis you're talking about are not reading this forum, the ones that are probably come here to troll you anyway.
Forums 101 - ask questions, get advice, share the stoke.
<end of thread>
The reason you find kiters annoying is because it attracts people with no marine background, whereas sailboarders often come from a sailing background, hence knowing the rules.
Most kite schools these days just focus on getting on the board, so the rules are only briefly mentioned, if at all, so unless you come from a marine background you won't have a clue. I'm sure once people have a general understanding of the rules they will stick to them.
I agree with what was previously said that schools should be pushed to teach the rules, I know the IKO does but wether that translates into schools actually teaching it, I don't know.
Select to expand quoteN1GEL said..
You have many good points, but I think Fez is referring to a specific little piece of sand bar that protrudes and is only a few hundred meters long. There's many obstacles like oyster beds, reo, old sunken boats and many more nasties to avoid. It's like Mark mentioned, you can harp on about a particular spot, but unless you sail there you wouldn't know how it works. My understanding of this spot is that there's a very fine line between flat speed water and the chop from the river that flows beside it. It's a tight spot even for windsurfing
Have you sailed Taren pt man????? or are you just harping on??????
It reads like your trying to pretend its a secret spot, that reminds of when Leo and Keef thought they discovered Lake Illawarra about 8 yrs ago.......
Lake Secret spot,
Ive sailed it heaps, its not a secret spot nor does it have anything unique about sailing it, eg, its not like sailing Harrington
Its a little sandbar, accessed by sailing about a 1.5km through open water, hit the bar, bear off, gype at the end, come back up wind in the open water till high enough to turn, sail back through open water so you can hit the bar at the top, bear off....repeat
So whats the problem??
The kiters turn tight and back and fourth their sess on the flat.......
If you wanna enforce some sorta local only vibe, then start imposing your will on others out there, if not, the Bot sailors should stop crying about sharing Sydneys main waterway for about a 4 million population
If its not kiters, then its jetskis, or its guys fishing off the rocks......the funny thing being, that only windsurfers have broken the most important rule of Bot, don't sail, or get stuck inside the restricted area at the runway.........that's probably the only thing that would get windsurfing banned, and windsurfers do it alot
Fez, have you tried Remi's method of constantly yelling starboard all the time at everyone on the water??????
Or The Boss method, where he will kill you if you get in his way?????????
Both these methods have proved pretty in effective
What about the ol sailor method at Bot, basically in a constant state of petition the council to ban every other water craft?????
"WHAT????!!!!!!! What do you mean they are putting in another boat ramp???!!!!!!!!"
Petition against it.....ha
The problem exists because kiters at this sand bar dont bear off and come back out in the open water - they just do 180 turns on the inside and come straight back out along the flat section then 180 (or boost) again at when they get near the chop.
They basically cruise back and forth only in the flat section so are a constant hazard for anyone entering this area at speed.
The guys who kite here are not beginners and as it takes a bit of work to get up wind to the spot
Select to expand quoteRoar said..
The problem exists because kiters at this sand bar dont bear off and come back out in the open water - they just do 180 turns on the inside and come straight back out along the flat section then 180 (or boost) again at when they get near the chop.
They basically cruise back and forth only in the flat section so are a constant hazard for anyone entering this area at speed.
The guys who kite here are not beginners and as it takes a bit of work to get up wind to the spot
So lets get this straight
The kiters cruising back and fourth, creating no problems, they are the hazard, not the windsurfer who thought it was his right to bear off through a crowded area?
Surely you can see that there was no hazard until the windsurfer turned up
If you cant enter whats already happening safely, then your the hazard!!!!
Select to expand quotecraze said..
Roar said..
The problem exists because kiters at this sand bar dont bear off and come back out in the open water - they just do 180 turns on the inside and come straight back out along the flat section then 180 (or boost) again at when they get near the chop.
They basically cruise back and forth only in the flat section so are a constant hazard for anyone entering this area at speed.
The guys who kite here are not beginners and as it takes a bit of work to get up wind to the spot
So lets get this straight
The kiters cruising back and fourth, creating no problems, they are the hazard, not the windsurfer who thought it was his right to bear off through a crowded area?
Surely you can see that there was no hazard until the windsurfer turned up
If you cant enter whats already happening safely, then your the hazard!!!!
Not when we enter on starboard (right) tack and kiters coming in the opposite direction on port (left) instead of giving way jump in front of you. Also kiters on same tack are slower, rule says that the one overtaking should stay away, but the one being overtaken should maintain a straight course, which does not happen when they are busy jumping or turning back without checking what's behind.
Are you guys aloud to scream through at high speeds doing "speed runs" that close to other water uses?
Not having a go at you.
Just interested in the regulations of a highly powered fast moving vessel in amongst other water uses ?
Is there a minimum distance a vessel doing that sort of speed should be from others?
Serious question.
But Im sure I'll just get red thumbed for being a kiter posting on here asking a serious question
,
Select to expand quotecraze said..N1GEL said..
You have many good points, but I think Fez is referring to a specific little piece of sand bar that protrudes and is only a few hundred meters long. There's many obstacles like oyster beds, reo, old sunken boats and many more nasties to avoid. It's like Mark mentioned, you can harp on about a particular spot, but unless you sail there you wouldn't know how it works. My understanding of this spot is that there's a very fine line between flat speed water and the chop from the river that flows beside it. It's a tight spot even for windsurfing
Have you sailed Taren pt man????? or are you just harping on??????
It reads like your trying to pretend its a secret spot, that reminds of when Leo and Keef thought they discovered Lake Illawarra about 8 yrs ago.......
Lake Secret spot,
Ive sailed it heaps, its not a secret spot nor does it have anything unique about sailing it, eg, its not like sailing Harrington
Its a little sandbar, accessed by sailing about a 1.5km through open water, hit the bar, bear off, gype at the end, come back up wind in the open water till high enough to turn, sail back through open water so you can hit the bar at the top, bear off....repeat
So whats the problem??
The kiters turn tight and back and fourth their sess on the flat.......
If you wanna enforce some sorta local only vibe, then start imposing your will on others out there, if not, the Bot sailors should stop crying about sharing Sydneys main waterway for about a 4 million population
If its not kiters, then its jetskis, or its guys fishing off the rocks......the funny thing being, that only windsurfers have broken the most important rule of Bot, don't sail, or get stuck inside the restricted area at the runway.........that's probably the only thing that would get windsurfing banned, and windsurfers do it alot
Fez, have you tried Remi's method of constantly yelling starboard all the time at everyone on the water??????
Or The Boss method, where he will kill you if you get in his way?????????
Both these methods have proved pretty in effective
What about the ol sailor method at Bot, basically in a constant state of petition the council to ban every other water craft?????
"WHAT????!!!!!!! What do you mean they are putting in another boat ramp???!!!!!!!!"
Petition against it.....ha
luv ya work Johnny
Select to expand quoteRoar said..
The problem exists because kiters at this sand bar dont bear off and come back out in the open water - they just do 180 turns on the inside and come straight back out along the flat section then 180 (or boost) again at when they get near the chop.
They basically cruise back and forth only in the flat section so are a constant hazard for anyone entering this area at speed.
The guys who kite here are not beginners and as it takes a bit of work to get up wind to the spot
sounds like a good spot to kite at, I might come out one day.
Select to expand quoteN1GEL said..
Kiters, boogers and scooters... all kooks as far as I'm concerned.
Really? You must have a terribly high opinion of your skill levels.
I wavesail with some pretty good kiters that I have a lot of respect for. They certainly aint kooks. At my local I have surfed a lot with Damian King, kicking arse. His legion of mates were too...........nope, not kooks. At the local skatepark with my son, the bikes and scooters are doing some awesome stuff......nope not kooks. In fact, all cool, but different. I think you need to readjust the googles through which you perceive yourself and your fellow sports people.
Select to expand quoteAJEaster said..
N1GEL said..
Kiters, boogers and scooters... all kooks as far as I'm concerned.
Really? You must have a terribly high opinion of your skill levels.
I wavesail with some pretty good kiters that I have a lot of respect for. They certainly aint kooks. At my local I have surfed a lot with Damian King, kicking arse. His legion of mates were too...........nope, not kooks. At the local skatepark with my son, the bikes and scooters are doing some awesome stuff......nope not kooks. In fact, all cool, but different. I think you need to readjust the googles through which you perceive yourself and your fellow sports people.
Here here AJ, I think that is the majority of the problem.
A few people, kiters and polers, think like N1GEL
, that they are awesome and everyone else are kooks because they arent doing the same thing as awesome as they (think ) are.
The water,beach,skate park...what ever, are for all to enjoy, not just the few that think they deserve it more.
Sorry N1GEL, but your poo stinks just like everyone elses.
