Select to expand quoteWillyWind said..mareks360 said..
Can you help me understand the graph? The zone 2 is the sweet spot, but when is the starboard foil taking off? Where there is a dot in the red line? In that case it would be starting to fly at 8mph wind and 7mph board speed? Also, it appears you are barely flying faster than the wind with the starboard foil, even when the wind is let's say 16mph, right?
When a Person Respectfully asks for information and clarification, I am always there for the Team :)
I will do it in Q&A:
Q1: Can you help me understand the graph? The zone 2 is the sweet spot,
A1: The zone 2 is both the "sweet spot" and the transition zone when the board contribution to Total Drag goes pretty much to 0. That is why the curve goes up. Also because with the speed you can move your weight back on the board and now the hydrofoil transitions from being "an anchor" to lift contributor, front wing angle of attack is the steepest, board enters planing.
Q2: but when is the starboard foil taking off? Where there is a dot in the red line? In that case it would be starting to fly at 8mph wind and 7mph board speed?
A2: Yes in my case. However for every Sailor (and gear setup) will be different. Sailor weight will be playing dominant factor.
Q3: Also, it appears you are barely flying faster than the wind with the starboard foil, even when the wind is let's say 16mph, right?
A3: Yes, and no. It depends on the board and water surface conditions. When I am on Starboard Go 180L for the most efficiency (without using Chinook Power Plate and Deep Tuttle to Plate adopter) I can only use Starboard 75cm Foil Mast because it is the only one that comes with a flange. So if I expect more wind 10-20mph (and expect sailing where bigger chop ) then I will either use SB FW 167L with power plate, 85cm Foil Mast (+7cm adapter) so it becomes ~92cm mast. If I use Race 100 I use directly 95cm mast.
It gets more complex from here because in Zone 3 the curve will change if I am on SB 167L and Race 100 with taller foil mast.
Therefore as you know on 75cm mast in 15+mph wind and Lk WA chop/waves will play a big role in curve flattening.
I think the most important thing is to understand the mechanisms at play and do not get obsessed on exactly 12mph board speed in 10mph wind for SB M1000/115++/255(-2)-0.5 because every Sailor Weight is different. Gear setup and tuning will be different.
But there is a way roughly how you can estimate the impact between different sailor weights on average & max speed for the same conditions and verify if you are in an expected range and if it makes sense.
A while ago (Dec 2020) I did a very detailed post on NW Windtalk about when I spent a lot of time sailing around Darius L.
You will be surprised how Ratios & Multipliers match in our comparison. Keep in mind also the style: "Two Sailors mowing the lawn".
Please find the link here for more details:
Ratios, Multipliers & Science - More Analysis for Geeks - Re: Monday 12/28/20 - light N wind & Sun patrol
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/79300663
Boy that video is a blast from the past. I think I'd been windsurfing about 6 months at the point. You can see my attempt to replace the centerboard gasket has failed and I'm basically trailing a sea anchor under the board.
The Phantom 320 isn't really a proper raceboard either although it has a decently powerful centerboard the added width made railing in light wind a challenge.
I sold it and bought a 91 Lightning WC that I also used to finish my one and only Winduro in a time around 3:30 from what I remember. Now THAT is a proper test of endurance. It involves circumnavigating the island inside Lake Washington, Marecks would probably enjoy it if could figure out how to get upwind.
Have you tried that set up? It could get you going in very light wind with no pumping.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
Boy that video is a blast from the past. I think I'd been windsurfing about 6 months at the point. You can see my attempt to replace the centerboard gasket has failed and I'm basically trailing a sea anchor under the board.
The Phantom 320 isn't really a proper raceboard either although it has a decently powerful centerboard the added width made railing in light wind a challenge.
I sold it and bought a 91 Lightning WC that I also used to finish my one and only Winduro in a time around 3:30 from what I remember. Now THAT is a proper test of endurance. It involves circumnavigating the island inside Lake Washington, Marecks would probably enjoy it if could figure out how to get upwind.
Congratulation Grant !
You know what happens when you "spit upwind"?
I have at least a 100 facts to bring to this forum to put "your experience into perspective" Respectfully.
Bring it on !
In the year 1980 when I have already learned how to windsurf, with picture of me to prove it, you were not even in your Parents Plans.
Ha, ha ! Fact.
In year 1982 or 1983 When maybe you became in your Parents Plans I was already proficient in windsurfing to be considered to complete (not necessary to compete - to win) one of the first National Youth Windsurfing Championship in Poland.
I was racing at the time in Cadet Class BUT I was willing to sacrifice my ranking in my class to do it as always "for the Team" and make one of the first (or actually the first) Polish National Youth Windsurfing Championship ever Valid.
Complete story on NW Windtalk:
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/message/70986
Ha, ha, ha !
Bring "more on" ;)
If you ask me if I ever make fool out of People ? No, absolutely NOT. I do not need to, I am only the Guy who lifts the Curtain ;)
OK
Lets have now some fun on my expense.
If you ever thought Marek and Pumping is an oxymoron like Danny Devito with "Army Intelligence" from the Movie.
Here is an example where I pump for 4h30min to gain 8 miles in no wind in "Pumpduro":
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/message/71543
Select to expand quotejusavina said..
Have you tried that set up? It could get you going in very light wind with no pumping.
Yes, Jusavina, sort of,
BUT I wanted to do on $1.5k then $2,5h budget instead of ready made $8-12k.
Long story short. It is still in the works a bit on back burner:
Long Story with all the pictures and graphs gone now due to bloody NW Windtalk old attachment delete process:
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/32817001
Example of one trolling motor.
I also tested another brand, more powerful brand and Kedean Jet Fin Drive:
Select to expand quotemareks360 said..jusavina said..
Have you tried that set up? It could get you going in very light wind with no pumping.
Yes, Jusavina, sort of,
BUT I wanted to do on $1.5k then $2,5h budget instead of ready made $8-12k.
Long story short. It is still in the works a bit on back burner:
Long Story with all the pictures and graphs gone now due to bloody NW Windtalk old attachment delete process:
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/32817001
Example of one trolling motor.
I also tested another brand, more powerful brand and Kedean Jet Fin Drive:
You actually did. 
Select to expand quoteDavidJohn said..
Mine has a little less clutter..
DavidJones, Jusavina,
Good onya Mates !
It seems like the World of e-foil Innovation and e-foil to windfoil "cross-pollination" has more advanced in the meantime since the time I first read Trolling Motors specs at "face value" and 240LB (109kg) Thrust suppose to even fly me vertically in the air back in 2019 !
Ha, ha, ha.
O, Boy what a long Journey with so many Unexpected "Roadblocks" & "Detours".
Select to expand quoteDavidJohn said..
Mine has a little less clutter..
DavidJohn Where is the video of it being used? If you have not made one, Please make one! Gotta see that in action!
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..DavidJohn said..
Mine has a little less clutter..
DavidJohn Where is the video of it being used? If you have not made one, Please make one! Gotta see that in action!
Oh, is that basically an efoil board, so no rig? This topic is for windfoils!
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..Sandman1221 said..DavidJohn said..
Mine has a little less clutter..
DavidJohn Where is the video of it being used? If you have not made one, Please make one! Gotta see that in action!
Oh, is that basically an efoil board, so no rig? This topic is for windfoils!
It can be used all three ways..
Windsurf foil.. Wingfoil.. and efoil..
I'll post a vid soon..
Something for me to try next using existing gear I already have and verify if "the pattern" continues with the same trajectory.
It will take some time as special bolts are coming from Europe and I need to shape more hydro efficient custom adapter to be placed between fuselages.
Current projection is:
Again, Just a projection based on the pattern.
BTW: Yesterday my "jaw dropped" when I dug out an old NW Windtalk Post from 2018 and Evan G has already conceptually figured it out already then ! While "Wake Thief" and I are coming to the same Conclusions based on our Research, Theoretical Science vs Practical Experimentation & Validation.
Here is what Evan G wrote then:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Basic lift theory is the reason. In equilibrium flight, a foil must develop lift, in pounds, equal to the weight of the rider plus gear. Lift scales directly with wing area, but depends only weakly on aspect ratio. So if you care about low wind thresholds but not outright speed, there's just one key number: wing area.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
More Details on NW Windtalk in:
"Ultra-light-air windfoiling with pumpfoils"
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/98151138
I was going to say it is worth your time looking at the pump foils, what can be done with hands can surely be done with a massive sail. Maybe worth looking at the downwind boards that are designed to enable foil liftoff without requiring the board to plane.
www.instagram.com/p/CkuUos8PHRk/?hl=en
Select to expand quotecornwallis said..
I was going to say it is worth your time looking at the pump foils, what can be done with hands can surely be done with a massive sail. Maybe worth looking at the downwind boards that are designed to enable foil liftoff without requiring the board to plane.
www.instagram.com/p/CkuUos8PHRk/?hl=en
PNG1310 has only 2080cm2. In my graph it falls somewhere between Slingshot Quantum 100 & i99. We have discussed "Wake Thief" research earlier in the post and Water Trials and the conclusion from ALL is now:
"It is the surface area that makes the earliest flight at the lowest input energy (e.g. least amount of wind) but at the expence of speed and potentially distance."
Please check the graph carefully.
Board Planing:
I explained earlier that when you have hydrofoil as a "main thruster" then board planing can be considered as an "additional booster".
Having "smaller main engine" at low speeds with Race Foils needs an "additional booster".
Board Planing:
Please note that "angled board" is like "single surface wing" (because on other side is air - different medium)
There is actually a "Clever Way" to Determine how much "Board Plaining" contributes to the "Total Lift"
Have I made you puzzled ?
Yes, you guessed it.
Take two contributing more complex factors and separate them.
How ?
Examine your "Stall Speed" on your GPS Watch and compare with your "take off speed".
When you stall, you do not have board lift therefore you (or I) drop down "like a rock" (if I use a tall mast in particular).
So For example for my Starboard Millenium 1000 setup (and my specific weight), lets say my stall speed is 12mph and now look at the graph and you can see that the steepest up curve is at 7mph board speed.
Here is your gain or delta 5mph differential.
Now lets take Slingshot i99 wing and estimate that the stall speed (for my setup and weight) is at 7mph.
You go and look at the graph.
It is roughly at 6mph.
Here is your gain or delta ~1 mph differential.
Therefore, if you have large surface wing, the board (considered as single sided wing) contributes much less to the Total Lift.
That is why we are talking about 2 different styles of windsurfing:
a) when you plain first - Racefoils e.g. - "Large Sails - Small Foils"
b) when you "feel" that you go directly to full foiling - because contribution is so small - "Large Foils - Small Sails"
Science can be Beautiful, Plain, Simple and so Empowering only when you Pay Attention and make an Effort.
Isn't it ?
One more point to make.
Do not get obsessed about "0.5mph" one way or another. It is about Mechanisms, Trends, Relations, Coefficients, that Matter.
You can always get stuck on little things: "None Dominant Factors" and "Noise".
Or, In order to "see the Bigger Picture" you need to "Soar like an Eagle" high above the ground to see what actually matters for "the Terrain".
Something to think about before you start asking irrelevant questions or trying to divert the topic in another direction.
It is a Win-Win Situation for Everybody when I am not forced again to "lift the curtain" and show someone with "pants on the ground".
Like you might have seen in the Didgie Video:
"It is not about me, It is about the Massage" & how can I, as Volunteer, contribute Best & Most to the Society.
The Topic here is:
"Ultralight wind (~5mph or ~4kt) windfoiling BAF for older "Heavy Dudes" 90kg+ and no pumping"
However, You may wonder as to what are Practical Implications of the 0-20 mph Wind Speed to 0-20 mph GPS/Board Speed.
Here what it does for me with the updated graph:
Please note, while keeping ALL the Gear (and Human)"Constant" and only leaving Hydrofoil as a "Variable".
Here is example ALL the Gear "Constant" in Winds 0-20 mph:
Board: SB Race 100 - Width: 100cm Volume: 208L, Length: 220cm (with SS i99 "Shovel" in the picture)
Sail: Gaastra Nitro 3 Prototype 10.9m or Gaastra Nitro 4 11.0m (same thing):
BTW: These are the Legendary Phill McGain Race Sails: KA-7 & AUS-7
I can go to the Beach / Launch Site, look at:
1) the Expected Main Wind range, Max Gust, Average Wind for the day
2) Do I want to have "The earliest foiling flights" or do I want to make "Max amount of Miles" for the day.
If I want to have "The earliest foiling flights" have to remember that it comes at a price.
If I chose e.g. Slingshot i99 expecting wind only in Range 6.2mph-7.8mph- the best choice where the foil outperforms all the others. Please check the Graph above.
BUT end up with the Day with what I call Wind "Zero to Hero". No base wind but only Gusts Shooting 0-20mph like in this report:
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/message/81291
Then I will have sore legs muscles do only 18 miles in roughly 4h and I am done for tthe day.
However,
Here is the Example when The Wind in Seattle is Actually what was forecasted.
Both in Wind Overall Range 0-17mph (Main wind range), Max Gust at 21mph and the Average Wind Speed for the session at around 8mph:
It does not happen that often because of Our Convergence Zone.
You may have forecast for Main wind at 15mph with Gusts up to 27mph and actual 0mph (like in my "Pumpduro").
I can ride for 7h and do 51 miles ! Be happy ! And Exceed my expected 40 miles per week in one day in Sunshine and toasty for the winter wetsuit: 46F-55F (8C-13C) and feel like it is Summer.
Here is the complete Report on NW Windtalk:
Lk WA 4/12/23 OO Denny 2 SSP Report - What a Day !
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/lk_wa_4_12_23_oo_denny_2_ssp/98235239
"Devil is in the Details"(on the ground) while I would add: "The Angel is in the Sky (Up above) with an Eagle"
We had very long debates about what exactly wind was on any particular day on NW Windtalk.
Was the sensor reading accurately at this specific wind direction. What were the impacting factors, etc, etc.
A lot of passionate, emotional debates.
BUT it all does not matter. It is all about Patterns, Relations between foil wings and where "they shine".
If someone is unhappy with "my scale" on the Graph (Wind to Board Speed or Sensor Wind Graph), then just shift the Graph UP / Down.
Add or Subtract whatever fixed amount of miles you like.
Also if you are of a different weight and using different size sails, you can use a Scaling Factors (Ratios & Multipliers) which I referenced earlier and compare what it may mean to you vs MarekS & Our Local Champ - Darius L.
"Ratios, Multipliers & Science - More Analysis for Geeks - Re: Monday 12/28/20 - light N wind & Sun patrol"
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/79300663
If we "filter noise" & "none-dominant factors" the picture becomes "Clear & Simple".
What Affects any Particular Wind Sensor vs Windsurfer/Windfoiler Wind can come down to 2 Dominant Factors:
1) height differences: scaling the height of sensor (if up above e.g. roof building) to height where the sailor is using e.g. wind calculator
wind-data.ch/tools/profile.php?lng=en
2) Understanding the topology of the surrounding terrain how it impacts the sensor (e.g. wind shadow upwind and wind shadow downwind).
For that I did a Long Article on NW Windtalk:
"Science of fluid flow, wind shadow, laminar vs turbulent flow - in reference to Lake Washington Winduro"\
groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/85734803
Mareks360,
I have watch some of your videos and read your lengthy, theoretical analysis. I want to be honest with you. It is irrelevant how many years a person has been Windsurfing, the amount of gear, the length of the post or how many posts one has. I think you need to take some Windsurfing lessons. That will help you. There are ABK classes in August around your area. I am confident that classes that focus on foiling and good habits/ techniques in windsurfing will help you. You will be able to participate in some of the upcoming local races too. Good luck.
A Person has a Right to Do Whatever a Person Want to Do with His/Her Time and Money.
A Person has a Right to Enjoy Whatever Sport, Whatever Way, Whenever.
However:
"nobody tells a man how to shave his balls, these are his balls"
Cause if he cuts them off - accidentally, pain will be his, and he may loose some "other benefits".
Another Expression:
"You do not Teach Your Father how to Make Children"
Oops!
Maybe that is The Problem.
BUT
If You "Tell Your Father how to Make Children"
AND
He gets his hands on a "Time Machine"
THEN
He Goes Back in Time.
THEN
You are "Never Been Born"
THEN
You never made "This Comment"
THEN
We Do not Have This Discussion in the first Place.
QUESTION:
Should you "Tell Your Father how to Make Children"?
Your Decision:
Your Consequences:
Your Risks to Evaluate.
No Further Advise Given.
What does this have to do with windfoiling? Honestly, before you posted your age, I assumed you were in your mid 70s. To my surprise, you are only 53. It is not time on the water that determines success, rather learning every time you go out and try to progress. You are an expert. Your expertise is writing a lot. If I were your mentor, I would advise you to take lessons, focus on gear, that actually works and help you to socialize with other fellow windsurfers/ foilers. You are still young and not a real heavy weight. When you hit 100 KG, we can talk again. There are many wing/ wind foilers that started in their late 50s and early 60s. That's the beauty of the sport. Age and years of experience is irrelevant. There are 16 year olds that foil much better than me with my years of experience.
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..
What does this have to do with windfoiling? Honestly, before you posted your age, I assumed you were in your mid 70s. To my surprise, you are only 53. It is not time on the water that determines success, rather learning every time you go out and try to progress. You are an expert. Your expertise is writing a lot. If I were your mentor, I would advise you to take lessons, focus on gear, that actually works and help you to socialize with other fellow windsurfers/ foilers. You are still young and not a real heavy weight. When you hit 100 KG, we can talk again. There are many wing/ wind foilers that started in their late 50s and early 60s. That's the beauty of the sport. Age and years of experience is irrelevant. There are 16 year olds that foil much better than me with my years of experience.
Go First and learn some RESPECT.
If that is one too fast then R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
I am Very Happy and Efficient with What I am Doing.
That is why I am sharing what works for me Best.
Though: "different strokes for different folks"
If you are not Happy with what you are doing ?
THEN
Listen to Your Own Advise:
"Go for more training".
Yes, "Certification" will make you a "Better Sailor".
you can Frame it on Your Wall.
BTW: I have been a "Certified Sailor" since 1984
and
Certified "Yacht Helmsmen" since 1987.
If you want pictures?
Have them.
Others will say I am bragging.
Again.
May be You want a "Beauty Contest ?"
Ha,
No Pageantry for me, just Efficiency.
You're so efficient you take all day to cover as much ground as most sailors do in 2 hours then spend the rest of your day trying to convince us that slogging a formula board for 8 hours could make anyone happy.
Mareks360,
Sorry that you feel disrespected. You're still young and have time to learn.
But you are missing the point. I advised you to take lessons. You don't need another worthless piece of paper that you can share with others. What you need is someone to show you how to properly get into foot straps, pumping and jibing. With all the money that you spent on different foils and boards, I am sure that spending US$700 for a week lesson in the hood river would benefit you. I am convinced that a lot of your issues would be resolved. That is a great return on investment.
