Above it was written: "Secondly according to him, right VMG setup is to have unpleasant front foot preassure which I don't like."
Racers tell me this same thing. In order to get a very high upwind angle at high speed (best VMG), you need to have the front wing doing a LOT of work lifting things. That means a LOT of front foot pressure to control it.
I also don't like that myself. I prefer a balanced foot pressure. Some guys, like Sailworks' BP, prefer a back foot heavy ride.
Fuse testing update:
My original setup. Board: SB foil 177. Foil: SB 110 mast, 115 fuse, 1100 wing, 255 stab. I'm flying the new 2021 Hydra 8.2. I had everything very well balanced with this setup.
My new fuse: 115+. I though I ordered the 115++, but apparently I hit the wrong button. no worries, I want to try this out anyway.
New fuse (115+): came with bolts (nice!), but depending on the trim tab you select, you'll need other sizes. I had purchased an extra torx bolt kit a while ago, thank god I had these around.
The test. super light wind. 0-13 mph.
Test 1: +1 shim with the original 255, so I think I was getting 3 degrees total. The board lifted with much lower speeds, maybe 1.5 kts (or 3 mph) less. Once the speed increased and everything was stabilized, my rear foot was about 6 inches further forward from the middle straps, or where I'm normally standing. When the wind came up, I found myself leaning much more forward, or bringing my rear foot another 1-2 inches forward. But yes, light winds and I was lifting much earlier! Foiling speeds were good, maybe 17 mph on 8 mph winds once I got lift off.
Test 2: 0 shim with the original 255. Rear foot seemed about 4-5 inches forward of my original position. I was lifting in 1kt or a few mph less than the original setup.
In both the first and the second test, you can feel the board wanting to lift. I found using more pressure centered on the board (no foot straps, further forward and in the centerline) to get the board speed helped. Original stance didn't quite work because the angle of the board is adding drag due to the angle of attack the foil has. So, keep it flat to build speed. When it feels like you're getting speed, the board will want to start lifting... that's when I put my front foot in the strap.
Test 3: -.5 shim with the original 255. This seemed to be a bit more applicable to light wind/variable conditions. We had 5mph to 17mph. Again, when in flight, my rear foot was 3-4 inches forward from normal. I was able to cruise through lulls easily, even flying in much lower speeds when in flight. Top speeds were 20mph on maybe 14 mph winds. This felt like it had more range, but still able to lift earlier.
In all scenarios, the jibes were faster (turning in test 1 and 2 is much faster), and you don't have to put a lot of back foot pressure to keep if flying throughout the turn. I usually look for a gust to turn in; but didn't have to with these shims. In test 3, the jibe was still more responsive and the footing seemed good based from the original 115 fuse.
Next few tests will be using the -1 and -2 shims, but I'll want a bit more wind to work with.
Impressions: So far, this is a great fuselage with many options. I can't wait to get the angles to 0 and see how she flys.
On a side note: I'm planning to use my original 115 with the -255 stab to see if the higher wind/speed foiling is better.
Hi,
Hoping everyone is doing well. Just wanted to mention a few things we've learned with ++ fuselages over the last couple years. We did try moving the fin box forward thinking that shortening the distance between the front wing and mast would solve a lot of issues. This just didn't work well. The existing box positions on the race boards with their current volume distribution work better.
The ++ fuselages are really geared for racing with big sails. Most of the guys are on 9's or 10's and the occasional 11. The extra weight of the rig really helps balance the additional power from the wing being so far forward. Also, you'll notice many of the top guys have removed their rear straps. This is because they are so far forward, the rear straps aren't relevant any longer. Also the riders are more upright, feet closer together and they are hanging on the boom more. I personally am not a fan of how these ride, and prefer a little back foot bias, perhaps I'm old school already.
We still like the standard wing positions for the strong winds we get in the SF Bay, the control issues with the ++ take some practice and certainly there is more risk breaching. The ++ allows some optimization of the rear wing, so we can generally use a bit less angle.
For light wind, these have a more consistent improvement especially upwind, and we've even made the 1m wing smaller for 2021 as a result. Julien won the Ft Boyard challenge in super light wind with a 727 sqcm front wing in light wings with a +12cm fuselage.
Sail On!
Chris
Select to expand quotef4Foils said..
Hi,
Hoping everyone is doing well. Just wanted to mention a few things we've learned with ++ fuselages over the last couple years. We did try moving the fin box forward thinking that shortening the distance between the front wing and mast would solve a lot of issues. This just didn't work well. The existing box positions on the race boards with their current volume distribution work better.
The ++ fuselages are really geared for racing with big sails. Most of the guys are on 9's or 10's and the occasional 11. The extra weight of the rig really helps balance the additional power from the wing being so far forward. Also, you'll notice many of the top guys have removed their rear straps. This is because they are so far forward, the rear straps aren't relevant any longer. Also the riders are more upright, feet closer together and they are hanging on the boom more. I personally am not a fan of how these ride, and prefer a little back foot bias, perhaps I'm old school already.
We still like the standard wing positions for the strong winds we get in the SF Bay, the control issues with the ++ take some practice and certainly there is more risk breaching. The ++ allows some optimization of the rear wing, so we can generally use a bit less angle.
For light wind, these have a more consistent improvement especially upwind, and we've even made the 1m wing smaller for 2021 as a result. Julien won the Ft Boyard challenge in super light wind with a 727 sqcm front wing in light wings with a +12cm fuselage.
Sail On!
Chris
Very nice when windsurfing manufacturers venture here to shed some light to the discussions we have. Keep it coming!
Select to expand quotef4Foils said..
Hi,
Hoping everyone is doing well. Just wanted to mention a few things we've learned with ++ fuselages over the last couple years. We did try moving the fin box forward thinking that shortening the distance between the front wing and mast would solve a lot of issues. This just didn't work well. The existing box positions on the race boards with their current volume distribution work better.
The ++ fuselages are really geared for racing with big sails. Most of the guys are on 9's or 10's and the occasional 11. The extra weight of the rig really helps balance the additional power from the wing being so far forward. Also, you'll notice many of the top guys have removed their rear straps. This is because they are so far forward, the rear straps aren't relevant any longer. Also the riders are more upright, feet closer together and they are hanging on the boom more. I personally am not a fan of how these ride, and prefer a little back foot bias, perhaps I'm old school already.
We still like the standard wing positions for the strong winds we get in the SF Bay, the control issues with the ++ take some practice and certainly there is more risk breaching. The ++ allows some optimization of the rear wing, so we can generally use a bit less angle.
For light wind, these have a more consistent improvement especially upwind, and we've even made the 1m wing smaller for 2021 as a result. Julien won the Ft Boyard challenge in super light wind with a 727 sqcm front wing in light wings with a +12cm fuselage.
Sail On!
Chris
More light - go to 9:55 where Julien discusses the F4 ++ fuse, set up, etc
Hi Guys, I need an advice
I have the 115 fuselage and I want to buy the 115+, but the store didn't have it, only the 115++.
I'm a very big guy, 108 kg and 2 m tall, I didn't buy new foil gear, just modified old formula gear (Gaastra vapor reinforced board and cuted down 12 m sails and boom) so my gear is also heavy.
I have 3 wings, 800, 1000 and the zulu 1200
In your opinion, what fuselage should I buy, should Iwait for the 115+ or get the 115++ now, considering I'm keeping the old 115 and the original stab
also, I've read about some bending problems on the 115++, so I really don't know what to do
Thanks!
Select to expand quoteJBOhaco said..
Hi Guys, I need an advice
I have the 115 fuselage and I want to buy the 115+, but the store didn't have it, only the 115++.
I'm a very big guy, 108 kg and 2 m tall, I didn't buy new foil gear, just modified old formula gear (Gaastra vapor reinforced board and cuted down 12 m sails and boom) so my gear is also heavy.
I have 3 wings, 800, 1000 and the zulu 1200
In your opinion, what fuselage should I buy, should Iwait for the 115+ or get the 115++ now, considering I'm keeping the old 115 and the original stab
also, I've read about some bending problems on the 115++, so I really don't know what to do
Thanks!
For light wind, you want the 115 ++, 1000 M wing and 255-2 rear. You will need the IQ mast with that long fuse; it is also recommended by Starboard (not normal carbon 95cm mast). Explain exactly what you did to reinforce your Vapor (details)? The Vapor isn't heavy. For higher winds, you move back on the fuse and wing size. Which foil mast do you have right now?
Select to expand quoteHi ZeroVix
Now I have the IQ mast, use to have the other, and wasn't stiff enough, I haven't tried the new one yet because of Covid, but here in Chile we should get off this soon
The board reinforcement is by replacing the finbox for a foil ready one, a friend of mine can do it and I've done it on two other boards, Exocet formula 2010 and starboard 162, the Gaastra is being modified now
I'm not changing the stab soon, I think it might not be necessary because of my weight
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..JBOhaco said..
Hi Guys, I need an advice
I have the 115 fuselage and I want to buy the 115+, but the store didn't have it, only the 115++.
I'm a very big guy, 108 kg and 2 m tall, I didn't buy new foil gear, just modified old formula gear (Gaastra vapor reinforced board and cuted down 12 m sails and boom) so my gear is also heavy.
I have 3 wings, 800, 1000 and the zulu 1200
In your opinion, what fuselage should I buy, should Iwait for the 115+ or get the 115++ now, considering I'm keeping the old 115 and the original stab
also, I've read about some bending problems on the 115++, so I really don't know what to do
Thanks!
For light wind, you want the 115 ++, 1000 M wing and 255-2 rear. You will need the IQ mast with that long fuse; it is also recommended by Starboard (not normal carbon 95cm mast). Explain exactly what you did to reinforce your Vapor (details)? The Vapor isn't heavy. For higher winds, you move back on the fuse and wing size. Which foil mast do you have right now?
The Gaastra board is super light (and almost minted) that's why I left it for last, I've learned on the other two
What's heavy is the sails, a 12 m evo3 and a 12 m sevene both cutted down and now they have something around 230 on boom length
I'm even thinking in using my old north 11 m, well, we'll see what happens
Select to expand quoteJBOhaco said..Hi ZeroVix
Now I have the IQ mast, use to have the other, and wasn't stiff enough, I haven't tried the new one yet because of Covid, but here in Chile we should get off this soon
The board reinforcement is by replacing the finbox for a foil ready one, a friend of mine can do it and I've done it on two other boards, Exocet formula 2010 and starboard 162, the Gaastra is being modified now
I'm not changing the stab soon, I think it might not be necessary because of my weight
Cool. The IQ mast with your weight (many) and large sails is a must. Good that you have it. I would like to see the end results of the Vapor (pictures) when it is done. I have one in the garage and going to modify it to. Thinking what looks best with the graphics on top.
I think that you should specify what winds you are talking about for the stab and wing size. The specs with the 115 ++ / 1000 /255-2 is ideal for heavier guys in light wind (7-15). With the 100.5cm wide board and large sails, I would want that fuse way up front for light winds. Others will chime in with more experience with the different stabs.
Select to expand quoteJBOhaco said..
Hi Guys, I need an advice
I have the 115 fuselage and I want to buy the 115+, but the store didn't have it, only the 115++.
I'm a very big guy, 108 kg and 2 m tall, I didn't buy new foil gear, just modified old formula gear (Gaastra vapor reinforced board and cuted down 12 m sails and boom) so my gear is also heavy.
I have 3 wings, 800, 1000 and the zulu 1200
In your opinion, what fuselage should I buy, should Iwait for the 115+ or get the 115++ now, considering I'm keeping the old 115 and the original stab
also, I've read about some bending problems on the 115++, so I really don't know what to do
Thanks!
I personally think you should opt for the 115plus.
with your size there is a very good chance you will bend it (++)
especially if the wind increase above the 10 range which is around when you will pop.
I would agree also in making sure you have the stiffest mast possible
in other words the IQ 95.
I have both the + and the ++, winds around 15 kn the ++ becomes a handfull not so much because of the power more i recon the wing is washing out (twisting,deflecting)when sailing down wind.
i m 74kg
Select to expand quotesnides8 said..JBOhaco said..
Hi Guys, I need an advice
I have the 115 fuselage and I want to buy the 115+, but the store didn't have it, only the 115++.
I'm a very big guy, 108 kg and 2 m tall, I didn't buy new foil gear, just modified old formula gear (Gaastra vapor reinforced board and cuted down 12 m sails and boom) so my gear is also heavy.
I have 3 wings, 800, 1000 and the zulu 1200
In your opinion, what fuselage should I buy, should Iwait for the 115+ or get the 115++ now, considering I'm keeping the old 115 and the original stab
also, I've read about some bending problems on the 115++, so I really don't know what to do
Thanks!
I personally think you should opt for the 115plus.
with your size there is a very good chance you will bend it (++)
especially if the wind increase above the 10 range which is around when you will pop.
I would agree also in making sure you have the stiffest mast possible
in other words the IQ 95.
I have both the + and the ++, winds around 15 kn the ++ becomes a handfull not so much because of the power more i recon the wing is washing out (twisting,deflecting)when sailing down wind.
i m 74kg
Thanks guys, I usually sail in a lake with winds between 12-20 knots with this quiver, I have a different one for open sea (neilpryde glide large with 5.3 sail)
I'm starting to think may be the ++ don't have much sense for me because I'm not planing under 10 knots, just don't pop up, and I have the biggest wings available (the 1000 and the Zulu 1200), also a problem because is even more probability of bending
Select to expand quoteJBOhaco said..
Hi Guys, I need an advice
I have the 115 fuselage and I want to buy the 115+, but the store didn't have it, only the 115++.
I'm a very big guy, 108 kg and 2 m tall, I didn't buy new foil gear, just modified old formula gear (Gaastra vapor reinforced board and cuted down 12 m sails and boom) so my gear is also heavy.
I have 3 wings, 800, 1000 and the zulu 1200
In your opinion, what fuselage should I buy, should Iwait for the 115+ or get the 115++ now, considering I'm keeping the old 115 and the original stab
also, I've read about some bending problems on the 115++, so I really don't know what to do
Thanks!
Can you order the fuse from another dealer?
I don't have the ++, but the + felt different enough and helped with getting up in slightly lighter winds. The fuses aren't all that expensive, so get something and play around with it.
