Hey all,
I am currently running the 115 fuse, but just purchased the 115++ and the -2 255 stab. What experiences did you have moving from the older to the newer version? What were the 'equivalent' settings to start with before tweaking it? Any insights would be helpful.
IE
Bump - any informed thoughts on stab angles and mast foot placement after the change would be appreciated.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Front wing moved forward, earlier lift with the same front wing?
That's the idea. Move the front wing forward so you can eliminate the stab angle. I'll know more an a few weeks.
Select to expand quoteIndecentExposur said..LeeD said..
Front wing moved forward, earlier lift with the same front wing?
That's the idea. Move the front wing forward so you can eliminate the stab angle. I'll know more an a few weeks.
I just got the 115++ and I was advised to use the 255 -2 (and the -2 shim). I will let you know how it goes.
Select to expand quoteFoiler69er said..IndecentExposur said..LeeD said..
Front wing moved forward, earlier lift with the same front wing?
That's the idea. Move the front wing forward so you can eliminate the stab angle. I'll know more an a few weeks.
I just got the 115++ and I was advised to use the 255 -2 (and the -2 shim). I will let you know how it goes.
I just received my 115++ and -2 255. Now I just need good weather (Warm) and wind.
Select to expand quoteFoiler69er said..IndecentExposur said..LeeD said..
Front wing moved forward, earlier lift with the same front wing?
That's the idea. Move the front wing forward so you can eliminate the stab angle. I'll know more an a few weeks.
I just got the 115++ and I was advised to use the 255 -2 (and the -2 shim). I will let you know how it goes.
I think the -2 shim might be too much. Gonzalo was recommending to use the -1 shim.
Since the -2 stab is at 1.7 degrees, using the -2 shim would give a -0.3 degrees.
If you use the the -1.5 shim, the stab will have only 0.2 degrees in comparison to the front wing.
I haven't tried the -2 shim yet so this is just a guess.
Let us know how you go with it.
I have been using the ++ for about 6 months now.
I use the -2 shim in winds around 10-15
its seems slippery but a little harder to stay trimmed as there's a lot less stability in choppy conditions.
winds under 10 I go to the -1.5 and it's nice to keep flying if a little draggy.
winds around 14-15 and above I tend to go back to the 115+ and a 0 or -.5 shim.
all of the above on either 900 or 1000
How much further forward is the front wing on the ++ compared to the + ? The + is way way more powerful than the original black fuse so the ++ must be ridiculous? How do they stop them snapping in half?
I also think when talking about shims it's worth talking about 'global trim' due to some people running the -2 stab, some running the original '0' degree stab; for the sake of simplicity the real world angles are irrelevant. I run -1 overall trim on the + fuse (the same as +1 with a -2 stab...but I run -1 with a 0 deg stab) and it's pretty good from 6-18kts. Over that I'll drop to -1.5 global trim; this is all with 900, 9.0....although I usually drop to the 8.0 over 18kts and it doesn't weight the mast foot as much so generally run -0.5 less that I would on the 9.0. In terms of speed I don't reckon there is much difference between -2 and -1 global, top speeds seem the same. You could probably send it pretty hard running -4 global but it's going to be rubbish upwind. I'd also say at -4 global there's going to be almost zero longitudinal dihedral so it's going to be pretty unstable pitch wise.
So, is anyone moving the mastfoot when going from the 115 to the more forward fuses? I'm riding a new fuse on my foil that puts the wing 11cm forward and have the angle down 1 degree (about 1.7) and still a ton of extra lift in the gusts after moving the mast base a fair amount.
The upwind and light air differences are phenomenal for these, though.
Select to expand quoteCJW said..
How do they stop them snapping in half?
So it must be the relativity of the foil (and its upward lift) and the bottom side mast (and its lateral lift) that's giving the performance advantage? Otherwise, to minimise the fore and aft bending moments on the fuse and box wouldn't they just move the topside mast track and footstrap positions rearward. Or put the foil on a sliding track, or dig in another tuttle box in front of the old one?
I'm not a racer, just curious.
So it looks like the ++ has pushed the front wing and stab forward by around 55/60mm.
I use the -2 stab by the way.
re additional lift/power it's trimmed out by using reduced angle on the stab.
Re mast foot and strap positions
I don't change anything and my mast is as far back in the track as it goes.
board Exocet rf 100
weight 74kg
Select to expand quoteIan K said..CJW said..
How do they stop them snapping in half?
So it must be the relativity of the foil (and its upward lift) and the bottom side mast (and its lateral lift) that's giving the performance advantage? Otherwise, to minimise the fore and aft bending moments on the fuse and box wouldn't they just move the topside mast track and footstrap positions rearward. Or put the foil on a sliding track, or dig in another tuttle box in front of the old one?
I'm not a racer, just curious.
Yeah it's all just about positioning the lift in the optimal spot, further forward in lighter wind, you can also run less stab trim the further you move the front wing forward meaning the whole lot 'should' be more slippery. That said it's not as simple as moving the mast/whole lot forward as you need the mast in that spot for general control; it's the spot everything pivots around after all. I know Starboard tried a heap of protos very early on with masts way forward on the bottom of the board etc and it was a disaster.
RE Snides, damn that's way forward, I've never seen the ++ in the wild. It must get out of control fast and like I said must be super marginal loading wise for anyone other than light weights....I've seen the +'s snapped in half/bent. Would be interesting to see the ++ vs the + in 6-8kts, I don't use all of the available power on the + (IE have more shims left) but you're effectively running I'd guess -2ish less trim. That said in those conditions you're never really near the drag limit so I suspect that effect would be marginal....but I guess that's all it takes.
Select to expand quotesnides8 said..
So it looks like the ++ has pushed the front wing and stab forward by around 55/60mm.
I use the -2 stab by the way.
re additional lift/power it's trimmed out by using reduced angle on the stab.
Re mast foot and strap positions
I don't change anything and my mast is as far back in the track as it goes.
board Exocet rf 100
weight 74kg
Thank you for the additional info. My foil is from a small local builder and the new wing position is 11 cm from the original (ie around the 115 to ++ distance). I tried at 1.7 degrees (iirc, 0 on the new -2 stab) on a day breezier than I expected (around 17-18 kt in gusts) and almost got bucked off. Moving the mast about 5-7 cm helped calm it down a bit. I'll see if knocking another half to degree off the stab angle works as well.
I'm down a few kg from where you are weight wise.
Again, my appreciation to all the knowledgeable input. Now to see if additional tweaks help or it's just my bad technique. 
Good info all!
What about the lightwind performance. I know we all would love to lift earlier, if the trim is set for higher lift (+1 with a traditional 255), is anyone seeing lift in lighter wind? I can start flying in about 10 kts, but is anyone getting up in 6? Thoughts?
Good info all!
What about the lightwind performance. I know we all would love to lift earlier, if the trim is set for higher lift (+1 with a traditional 255), is anyone seeing lift in lighter wind? I can start flying in about 10 kts, but is anyone getting up in 6? Thoughts?
I suspect the idea for ++ is to use it on boards that gave the finbox too far back.
If you're balanced with your setup, you don't need ++.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
I suspect the idea for ++ is to use it on boards that gave the finbox too far back.
If you're balanced with your setup, you don't need ++.
Wrong.
It's to allow a lower/more efficient stab angle while still being capable of supporting the large rig required for maximum VMG.
Did you ever consider the idea, in foil course racing, the front wing is still between your feet, the stab sticking waay beyond the tail, and stab angle is adjust for minimal downthrust, which allows for highest speed/lowest drag?
Perhaps adding shims might mean you have mismatched gear?
And +4" distance from front of mast to rear of foil is made to use for boards that have Tuttle box too far back for normal surf and windsurf fuzes?
They are used with foil specific course race boards for the reasons already stated. Nobody is using a race setup with the foil wing center of lift spaced equally between their feet.
Minimizing any required downward vector from the stab decreases drag at the expense of stability. The long fuselage compensates for this to some degree.
Why does your stabilizer now require down force?
I might be a newbie windfoiler, but my Naish setup is set neutral. Now with '20 long fuze, no shim needed.
Instead of downforce of stab, move setup forwards.
What, are you using Tuttle in a windsurf position with your foil?
Why not just start out with the correct setup?
This topic is about race foil fuselages which seems to be above your current understanding, I'm not going to teach you the basics.
You are correct.
I just talked to Xavier F yesterday.
2 of MikeZ,s teamriders....maybe 3 days a week.
Eric, who's been going really good, once every 3 weeks.
I know nothing.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
You are correct.
I just talked to Xavier F yesterday.
2 of MikeZ,s teamriders....maybe 3 days a week.
Eric, who's been going really good, once every 3 weeks.
I know nothing.
Ask Xavier about the ++. He can give you the skinny on it as I'm sure you can answer your questions better than the back and forth here with time delays, etc.
All this gear is already "balanced" with normal fuses and normal stab angles and it's the builders themselves making the fuses with the new wing positions. They remain balanced with the new wing positions because there's less stab angle (by default, iirc, 2 degrees) or, in my case, by also making changes in mast position well within the tolerance of the mast track. For a number of reasons, this setup enables better upwind/downwind performance that even a lower level foiler like myself can perceive.
It may not make sense until you are riding similar gear pushing hard on the angles instead of freeriding and not that one is better than the other, just different purposes.
IndecentExposur, iirc, the air is pretty thin where you are so it's hard(er) to make predictions. Again, even with my lesser abilities and limited experience on it, I can see better light air performance both in take off and in staying in flight.
In this case, probably fine tuning.
Pretty sure the Starboard team has been using the newest fuze.
But racers vary in weight. Stands to reason a 72 kg racer needs fine tuning alternatives from a 90 kg racer.
And trying more slippery and 3 different foil outlines....
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
In this case, probably fine tuning.
Pretty sure the Starboard team has been using the newest fuze.
But racers vary in weight. Stands to reason a 72 kg racer needs fine tuning alternatives from a 90 kg racer.
And trying more slippery and 3 different foil outlines....
Exactly, that's why the variety of foil shims in half degree increments. Plus there are footstrap and foil rake tunings as well.
However, it seems the iqfoil is relatively robust in that riders over a fair range of weight and sizes can be competitive. Other than the sail size, it's the same gear women are racing, too. From what I've seen, I think everyone is pleased about this.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Is there anything universal in sports?
Size of a ball maybe.
Wrong forum. You were looking for Forums > Windsurfing> Foilosophy
The shim on a race foil is used to adjust the down angle of the stab. Reducing the down angle has the effect of moving the center of lift aft of the front wing. You have to use more back foot to initiate and maintain flight. On my L6 formula board (with fixed position footstraps and a fixed position deep tuttle box), if I ran a Moses Race on it stock, I had to stand in front of the footstraps in order to balance it with, say, a 6.4 sail.
On the advice of Bruce Peterson (who foils only Moses Race these days), I mounted a 3d-printed shim to reduce the down angle. Now I can foil on the L6 in the footstraps, balanced. The wing has not moved, but the center of lift has effectively moved aft.
All of that said, the racers still like tons of front lift in order to fly upwind at high angles and high speed. They compensate for the forward positioning of the center of lift by running big heavy race sails that generate a lot more mast base pressure than our smaller and lighter freeride sails.
Surely you know people wear different size pants......don't you?
Are you so dumb that you presume ONE foil works for everyone?
