Select to expand quotePaducah said..
step 3 - hoping that for brevity you excluded wrapping the glass around the mast track before inserting. take the extra and smooth it flush to the deck, then sand smooth.
LoL, no, not brevity, just ignorance. 
So I think you mean to lay a layer of wetted cloth over the slot, then push that down into the slot (underneath the mast box) when installing the mast box, so that the cloth is underneath and around the sides, front, and back of the new mast box, with some extra overlaying the top of the board all around the mast box? Or do you mean to wrap the whole mast box like a little burrito, then shove it down in there? (Sounds like the former, as you mention then smoothing the edges, but want to be sure I correctly follow what you're describing. Sort of echoing Sandman's question here...)
Regarding the installation of the new box into the slot - the advice I'm getting is to have a pretty snug fit of the box into the slot, but I'm also being told that I should mix some bulked-up epoxy/Q-cell paste - I'm just wondering if the snug fit will negate the benefit of the thickened epoxy (ie, nowhere for it to really go if the fit is really snug, and if I'm also putting a layer of glass down in there), and if I should therefore allow a little bit of space around and underneath the box (for the thickened epoxy to fill), or if it really all should be very snug? It's just that from my boat repair experience, it seems that a lot of the benefit of thickened epoxy is the structural strength it provides through it's own bulk and volume - I just want to be sure I don't end up with minimal thickened epoxy down in there, that could end up ultimately being a weaker joint than unthickened epoxy in a snug fit. (I guess I'd also like to know how thick you guys recommend I make the paste - are we talking like peanutbutter consistency, or something thinner?)
BTW, Thanks a bunch for the pics, @Paducah and @Gwarn - those really help!Select to expand quotesegler said...
Definitely read Board Lady's stuff. She might not have your exact application on her website, but there are many common themes to her various repairs. The more knowledge you have about all this, the better.
Amen on that, brother. I've already read a bunch of the stuff on her site now, much of it unrelated to what I'm trying to do, but I figure the more I know, the better my chances at not screwing up an already bad situation!
Once again, I really appreciate everyone's help, advice, and encouragement. I'm feeling that this is probably something I can tackle with a reasonable chance of success. It likely won't be pretty, but as long as it holds up, and doesn't leave me stranded out in the ocean at some point, I'm good with not-pretty. :-)
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
Paducah thanks for the detailed info. and pictures, but what do mean exactly when you say wrap fiberglass around mast track?, do you mean the bottom and sides of the track with the excess glass flanging out on the deck?
And that's why there ARE professionals.
Man, Devil's Advocate time now... I just talked to Fox Watersports down in Buxton, and the guy said they could probably do the whole job for in the neighborhood of $150-200, which would be pretty close to what I'd spend on materials to do it myself, LoL.
I'm intrigued at the prospect of the experience of doing it myself, but given that the price would end up being about the same (and that I'd trust Fox's work a whole lot more than my own first try!), it's kind of a tough call. I'd have to arrange to be down there for 3-4 days while they did the work - whatever would I do with myself at the beach for 3-4 days?? ;->
Deep Contemplation is underway...
Bargain !! I'd go with that.
I'm sure you'll smash some more stuff up in the future that you can use as board repair experience.
Too cheap. I would do it myself. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..
Too cheap. I would do it myself. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
I dunno - Fox has been down there since the 70's, and has made and fixed a whole lot more boards than I have... ;-)
They were a big name down there back in my windsurfing heyday (80's-90's) - having a custom Fox board was the in thing! I'd assumed they'd just gone out of business over the years, and was surprised when their name came up talking w/ someone at Ocean Air.
Very torn right now - I think it'll depend a bit on the timing of my potential trip down there with my son next month, and whether they might be able to do the job while I'm down there or not.
Part of me really wants to have a go at it, and part of me is, like, "Dude, it's Fox..."
Select to expand quotejims said..ZeroVix said..
Too cheap. I would do it myself. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
I dunno - Fox has been down there since the 70's, and has made and fixed a whole lot more boards than I have... ;-)
They were a big name down there back in my windsurfing heyday (80's-90's) - having a custom Fox board was the in thing! I'd assumed they'd just gone out of business over the years, and was surprised when their name came up talking w/ someone at Ocean Air.
Very torn right now - I think it'll depend a bit on the timing of my potential trip down there with my son next month, and whether they might be able to do the job while I'm down there or not.
Part of me really wants to have a go at it, and part of me is, like, "Dude, it's Fox..."
For a $150? How many hours is needed and materials. I would want to see some of their work. But give it a go and let us know how it worked out.
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..
For a $150? How many hours is needed and materials. I would want to see some of their work. But give it a go and let us know how it worked out.
Well, to be fair, he said that w/o seeing it, he'd say that a typical mast box replacement would run about $150. I asked if it for sure could be done under $300, and he said that it'd easily be under $300, so I'm sort of splitting the difference. (Which I guess in truth, splitting the difference is $225 - still a semi-WAG, but seems to be in the general range he'd expect).
He also said they'd take a good look, and if the original box hadn't been well reinforced, that they'd do extra reinforcing - I'm not sure what that would entail. (I'll admit that I considered whether some plywood stringers added to the sides of the box and extending forward/behind it a bit might help reinforce and re-adhere things better, but since nobody more experienced mentioned it here, I assumed it wasn't needed or likely to be helpful. (The other thing is though, it's not like the box pulled out of the board in this little mishap - it was a failure internal to the box, itself. One of my concerns about the DIY job though, is Heaven Forbid I should not get it mounted in real well, and the whole box were to tear out on me one day - I live in some level of fear of being stranded offshore, in an offshore wind, with no means of sailing back to land, LoL...)
150-300 sound very reasonable in any currency. I think it depends on how much you like the board. If you like the board a lot then go professional. If you see yourself only using it a season or two more then maybe dabble DYI
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..
Too cheap. I would do it myself. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
It's Fox. They've been the go to for decades. I don't know if Donny Bowers is still there but, if he is, he's the man. A lot of us want one of his old glass customs as wall art/for that windy day if we ever find the right one. Lots of history in that shop. Saw a big Starboard (I want to say iSonic?) in there one time that had interesting mods on the nose for a cargo net. Asked someone there about it and the board belonged to Jim Drake. Yes, THAT Jim Drake who at the time was living in western NC.
jims, yes, you wrap the track with extra that sticks up. The bog is to push into any gap or imperfection in the routing and make sure there are no gaps. You'll push the excess out when you push the track in. Then squeegee the excess off then the glass flat to the deck. You may be able to find a board build video (I think both Carbon Art and Nelson have done series on youtube) that shows this step.
Found the Nelson video on Vimeo. He puts the glass on the deck then pushes the track into it.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
It's Fox.
Yep, exactly what I'm saying to myself! :-)Select to expand quotePaducah said..
Found the Nelson video on Vimeo. He puts the glass on the deck then pushes the track into it.
Wow, that video is amazing. Referencing the prior discussion of 'professionals', in case there is still any doubt, that dude is a PROFESSIONAL. :-) I learned a lot just watching the video once - I'll be going back for more viewings. (I especially love the way he mixes up his goop and really spreads it out to work with it - beats my approach of mixing small batches in a container, and then working from a pile on a piece of cardboard. (And spreading out like that slows down the kick time, too, allowing you to mix a lot more at once.)
I may be dense (ok, take the 'may' out...), but I'm still not clear on how the glass underneath the mast box is handled. From looking at the video, it looks like he lays it flat on the board, presses the mast box in over top of it, then smooths the 'wings' out to all the sides. (ie, laying it flat on the top surface of the board, vs wrapping it back over the top of the mast box. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how you're describing it, or maybe I'm missing some detail of what he does in the video.)
Forgive my kindergarten-level artistic skills (probably an insult to most kindergartners, LoL), but as I'm seeing it, it looks like below in cross section? (and horrifically out of scale) Black is the board, pink is the layer of wetted glass pressed down into the slot, blue is the mast box - then once the mast box is pressed down into the slot, it looks like he's just smoothing the wings onto the top surface of the board - is that correct? I'm impressed he didn't end up with wrinkles at the corners - he didn't seem to spend much time or effort in having to smooth out wrinkles. (likely that whole professional thing again! :-)
Yes because then for the track to sink its trying to overcome the tensile strength of glass which is far in excess of foam,
Just make sure its a chinook mast track, not a longboard finbox, and its installed into good foam with glassing like that and you can't go wrong.
I think $150, being about $200AUD? is pretty decent. I would charge around that dependent upon how much of a mess it is inside and if there is complex painting on top
My thinking is that regardless of whether or not I do this myself, or get Fox to do it, that I'll probably go ahead and cut out the damaged section of top sheet. I'm sure water got down in there, given how far back the topsheet was torn, and it's going to have to be dried out before anyone can work on it. (And if I do take it to Fox, and they're trying to do it while I'm in the area, they're not going to have the time to dry it out.)
Question is, if I do that, would I be making more of a mess for Fox to have to deal with, or would it be Ok? (I wouldn't cut it very far back - just as far as the topsheet is torn, which is about 2" on each side of the mast box.)
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..
Too cheap. I would do it myself. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
Ignorance speaking. The person who does the repairs at Fox in Hatteras, Donny Bowers, has been building surfboards for ages, and repairing windsurf boards for at least a couple of decades. For those who don't know about Hatteras: it's the spot in the US where you'll see the most windsurfers on the water. I've seen more than 100 windsurfers on the water at the same spot, on the same day, more than once, but the whole region spreads out over 50+ km, from Rodanthe to Frisco. The season is from April to November. Donny has done all the board repairs there for a long, long time.
Over the years, he has repaired several of our boards, and the repairs always were top-notch. Prices for regular repairs were always very good - I think he did a nose repair for $40 in a single day (it will take longer if he determines the board needs to dry out). The repairs do not cost much because Donny has done more repairs than probably anyone else in the world. That experience also means that he can do them very quickly.
Select to expand quoteMr Hooper said..
^^^That's a bargain. I'm gonna bring my board repairs to you from now on !
Jims is not the first person who'll take a longer trip to get his board repaired right in Hatteras. I do my own repairs, but if it was anything complicated, or on a board that I was planning to sell in the future, I'd wait and let Donny Bowers do it, if I had plans to go to Hatteras in the next few months (I've been there at least once a year for the past 10 years or so, often in twice a year).
Select to expand quotejims said..
My thinking is that regardless of whether or not I do this myself, or get Fox to do it, that I'll probably go ahead and cut out the damaged section of top sheet. I'm sure water got down in there, given how far back the topsheet was torn, and it's going to have to be dried out before anyone can work on it. (And if I do take it to Fox, and they're trying to do it while I'm in the area, they're not going to have the time to dry it out.)
Question is, if I do that, would I be making more of a mess for Fox to have to deal with, or would it be Ok? (I wouldn't cut it very far back - just as far as the topsheet is torn, which is about 2" on each side of the mast box.)
Just call Fox and ask them. They'll probably have to ask Donny, who usually is not in the shop, but they or he will call you back with the answer.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..ZeroVix said..
Too cheap. I would do it myself. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
Ignorance speaking. The person who does the repairs at Fox in Hatteras, Donny Bowers, has been building surfboards for ages, and repairing windsurf boards for at least a couple of decades. For those who don't know about Hatteras: it's the spot in the US where you'll see the most windsurfers on the water. I've seen more than 100 windsurfers on the water at the same spot, on the same day, more than once, but the whole region spreads out over 50+ km, from Rodanthe to Frisco. The season is from April to November. Donny has done all the board repairs there for a long, long time.
Over the years, he has repaired several of our boards, and the repairs always were top-notch. Prices for regular repairs were always very good - I think he did a nose repair for $40 in a single day (it will take longer if he determines the board needs to dry out). The repairs do not cost much because Donny has done more repairs than probably anyone else in the world. That experience also means that he can do them very quickly.
We will have to see. I know the Hatteras. You can't even find someone in the Gorge to do anything. Again, it really depends on what will be done. I would assume that painting is included. Maybe your nose repairs for $40 were done some 15-20 years ago. And a nose repair is very general. Proof is in the pudding. Lets see. Times have changed and $150 gets you nothing these days. Not about the quality of work. The price. If he said $250-300 it would sound reasonable. But prove me wrong.
Oh no Jim, sorry I just saw this post! sorry about the wizard 
wish I was an expert on board repairs, but I will leave that to the pros, all of my repairs have been with ding putty and that is not going to work in this situation.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
Found the Nelson video on Vimeo. He puts the glass on the deck then pushes the track into it.
Great video. Love the multiple sanders and routers, and the overall organization. So much easier to be fast if you can just grab the next sander or router, instead of having to switch sandpaper, router bits, and so on. Lots of other things to learn in this video, too.
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..
I know the Hatteras.... Maybe your nose repairs for $40 were done some 15-20 years ago... But prove me wrong.
Simple to prove you wrong: the nose repair was done about 5 years ago. It included glassing and paint matching.
On my trips to Hatteras before 2020, we have always been part of a large group, so there was always someone who needed repairs, and it has always been done very well, quickly, and usually at a price that was surprisingly low. It's also quite common that the repair comes in at the bottom of the price range given when dropping off the board, or even below. No need to take my word for it - check www.iwindsurf.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=321684. Includes a picture of a board broken in half in a bad loop landing that Donny fixed. One citation from a regular Hatteras visitor that reflects the sentiment of many NY-area windsurfers: "For decades Bowers has been knocking it out of the park." But of course, the threads also include skeptics who neither had personal experience with Donny's repairs, or even knew anyone who has.
Is $150 reasonable? Material cost for the job is about $30 (assuming you buy everything in quantity). That leaves $120 for labor. If I'd do this, I'd probably need 6-10 hours, but most of that time is spend setting things up, putting things away, and so on. With a setup like in the Nelson Factory video, it would drop down to maybe 3 or 4 hours hands-on time. That's for someone who's done maybe a couple of dozen repairs, and fewer than 10 box installs. Someone who's done it hundreds of times would need maybe half the time (or less). That would give you a labor rate somewhere around $60 to $80 (or higher). Fortunately, Donny seems to be happy with that.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..ZeroVix said..
I know the Hatteras.... Maybe your nose repairs for $40 were done some 15-20 years ago... But prove me wrong.
Simple to prove you wrong: the nose repair was done about 5 years ago. It included glassing and paint matching.
On my trips to Hatteras before 2020, we have always been part of a large group, so there was always someone who needed repairs, and it has always been done very well, quickly, and usually at a price that was surprisingly low. It's also quite common that the repair comes in at the bottom of the price range given when dropping off the board, or even below. No need to take my word for it - check www.iwindsurf.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=321684. Includes a picture of a board broken in half in a bad loop landing that Donny fixed. One citation from a regular Hatteras visitor that reflects the sentiment of many NY-area windsurfers: "For decades Bowers has been knocking it out of the park." But of course, the threads also include skeptics who neither had personal experience with Donny's repairs, or even knew anyone who has.
Is $150 reasonable? Material cost for the job is about $30 (assuming you buy everything in quantity). That leaves $120 for labor. If I'd do this, I'd probably need 6-10 hours, but most of that time is spend setting things up, putting things away, and so on. With a setup like in the Nelson Factory video, it would drop down to maybe 3 or 4 hours hands-on time. That's for someone who's done maybe a couple of dozen repairs, and fewer than 10 box installs. Someone who's done it hundreds of times would need maybe half the time (or less). That would give you a labor rate somewhere around $60 to $80 (or higher). Fortunately, Donny seems to be happy with that.
Let's discontinue our conversation between us. It is distracting and you are editing my response (a nose repair is very general means something simple to very labor intensive). Prove me wrong was in reference to the $150 job. Nose repairs have large deviations in price. If he can do it in 2 hours based on your calculation that is impressive. Ask Roberts Composite and North Pacific what it would cost. That is my reference point in prices.
I have the same board. I thought the mast track was just annoying, as it only had the slot in the middle that requires taking the nut off. I didn't realize it was also weak construction. They did change the mast track in the V2. Definitely a case where the Chinook 2-bolt base should be used.
Select to expand quotejims said..Paducah said..
It's Fox.
Yep, exactly what I'm saying to myself! :-)Paducah said..
Found the Nelson video on Vimeo. He puts the glass on the deck then pushes the track into it.
Wow, that video is amazing. Referencing the prior discussion of 'professionals', in case there is still any doubt, that dude is a PROFESSIONAL. :-) I learned a lot just watching the video once - I'll be going back for more viewings. (I especially love the way he mixes up his goop and really spreads it out to work with it - beats my approach of mixing small batches in a container, and then working from a pile on a piece of cardboard. (And spreading out like that slows down the kick time, too, allowing you to mix a lot more at once.)
I may be dense (ok, take the 'may' out...), but I'm still not clear on how the glass underneath the mast box is handled. From looking at the video, it looks like he lays it flat on the board, presses the mast box in over top of it, then smooths the 'wings' out to all the sides. (ie, laying it flat on the top surface of the board, vs wrapping it back over the top of the mast box. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how you're describing it, or maybe I'm missing some detail of what he does in the video.)
Forgive my kindergarten-level artistic skills (probably an insult to most kindergartners, LoL), but as I'm seeing it, it looks like below in cross section? (and horrifically out of scale) Black is the board, pink is the layer of wetted glass pressed down into the slot, blue is the mast box - then once the mast box is pressed down into the slot, it looks like he's just smoothing the wings onto the top surface of the board - is that correct? I'm impressed he didn't end up with wrinkles at the corners - he didn't seem to spend much time or effort in having to smooth out wrinkles. (likely that whole professional thing again! :-)
Thanks Paducah, that is how I thought you meant to install the track, but was not sure.
Select to expand quotejims said..
Man, Devil's Advocate time now... I just talked to Fox Watersports down in Buxton, and the guy said they could probably do the whole job for in the neighborhood of $150-200, which would be pretty close to what I'd spend on materials to do it myself, LoL.
I'm intrigued at the prospect of the experience of doing it myself, but given that the price would end up being about the same (and that I'd trust Fox's work a whole lot more than my own first try!), it's kind of a tough call. I'd have to arrange to be down there for 3-4 days while they did the work - whatever would I do with myself at the beach for 3-4 days?? ;->
Deep Contemplation is underway...
Take it in and get a written quote, and see what that costs. Did you send them pictures?, that could help to get an accurate quote. $200 would be reasonable to have someone else do it for sure, but until they see it you do not know.
bog it in and glass over it done.
Keep it Simple
To be arguing over the prices on a worldwide platform is just foolish.
Select to expand quoteGwarn said..
bog it in and glass over it done.
Keep it Simple
To be arguing over the prices on a worldwide platform is just foolish.
He is in the US and so am I, so like I said $200 would be reasonable, but all the same, thanks for the pictures of your repair.
Select to expand quoteGwarn said..
@Gwarn - that was exactly what I had in mind. (ie, the two ply reinforcing mini-stringers on the sides of the mast box) How deep did you make those? I'd feel a lot better about DIY if I was pretty assured that the box wouldn't pull out in a crash, and the extra bonding area of those mini-stringers would definitely inspire a bit more confidence.
That's a snazzy looking top layer of cloth on there! What is that, some type of glass/CF weave?
The side stringers go 1 3/4 deep x 1/4 wide.
The vector cloth netting
greenlightsurfsupply.com/products/1-2-diamond-vectornet-carbon-fiber-reinforcement
