Select to expand quoteBritWindfoiler said..
Windfoilers definitely have a better low-end, on the same size foil and sail size. Wingers are often using massive 2000-2500cm foils which do get them going in light winds, but equally windfoilers using massive highlift wings will get going in even lighter winds.
Every time a new toy comes to market it comes with its own marketing mythology. After having claimed that wind foils were much better than windsurfs at the low end, now of course the wings and better than the windfoil. Reality is that gains, if any, are marginal and with plenty qualifiers.
Sure, maybe a wing might start in 10 knots but then what it does is to literally crawl around because of ... that 2000-2500 cm foil. As you say a windfoil with a similar surface will start even earlier ... and crawl as well. My experience is that I actually have much better low end than either wind- or wing-foil using my 70 Kg, Isonic 111 and a Point-7 ACX 7.5. I do circles around them. People with a race foil, 8-9 square meters sail and a large race board are a different story. They go early (better low end than my Isonic!) and they go (relatively) fast.
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..
As you say a windfoil with a similar surface will start even earlier ... and crawl as well. My experience is that I actually have much better low end than either wind- or wing-foil using my 70 Kg, Isonic 111 and a Point-7 ACX 7.5. I do circles around them. People with a race foil, 8-9 square meters sail and a large race board are a different story. They go early (better low end than my Isonic!) and they go (relatively) fast.
My experience is different. A windfoiler with the same size freerace sail and foil will be off the water way before you by a significant amount and equal in speed up until 14-15 kts at least. If they change down to a smaller wing, they will be even in the straights and still blow you away in the jibes up to the upper teens. They can foil all day in conditions that you may barely get going in at all. By the time you get powered up on your 7.5, some, like me, may have decided to rig down to my 5.4 and off chasing swells to ride.
If someone is plopping merrily along on their big freeride wing and smaller sail when you are sailing your circles around them, they may simply not care how fast they are going.
Watch some of the winter slalom training videos from Tarifa. Foils and fins are sailing side by side very equal in speed in the mid to upper teens. The blanket statement that slalom gear is faster in the low wind ranges is no longer true.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..duzzi said..
As you say a windfoil with a similar surface will start even earlier ... and crawl as well. My experience is that I actually have much better low end than either wind- or wing-foil using my 70 Kg, Isonic 111 and a Point-7 ACX 7.5. I do circles around them. People with a race foil, 8-9 square meters sail and a large race board are a different story. They go early (better low end than my Isonic!) and they go (relatively) fast.
My experience is different. A windfoiler with the same size freerace sail and foil will be off the water way before you by a significant amount and equal in speed up until 14-15 kts at least. If they change down to a smaller wing, they will be even in the straights and still blow you away in the jibes up to the upper teens. They can foil all day in conditions that you may barely get going in at all. By the time you get powered up on your 7.5, some, like me, may have decided to rig down to my 5.4 and off chasing swells to ride.
More or less what I said: "People with a race foil, 8-9 square meters sail and a large race board are a different story. They go early (better low end than my Isonic!) and they go (relatively) fast." I also have the advantage of weight, I am 70 Kg right now, and the margin of advantage of a race/freerace windfoil verus my 7.5 + Isonic are small. Friend of mine at 95-100 Kg race foils with 7-7.8 when I am on 6.5-7.5, but I am never slogging when he isn't. I am sure a 70 Kg on a foil with 7.5 sail will have a better low end than me!
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..Paducah said..duzzi said..
As you say a windfoil with a similar surface will start even earlier ... and crawl as well. My experience is that I actually have much better low end than either wind- or wing-foil using my 70 Kg, Isonic 111 and a Point-7 ACX 7.5. I do circles around them. People with a race foil, 8-9 square meters sail and a large race board are a different story. They go early (better low end than my Isonic!) and they go (relatively) fast.
My experience is different. A windfoiler with the same size freerace sail and foil will be off the water way before you by a significant amount and equal in speed up until 14-15 kts at least. If they change down to a smaller wing, they will be even in the straights and still blow you away in the jibes up to the upper teens. They can foil all day in conditions that you may barely get going in at all. By the time you get powered up on your 7.5, some, like me, may have decided to rig down to my 5.4 and off chasing swells to ride.
More or less what I said: "People with a race foil, 8-9 square meters sail and a large race board are a different story. They go early (better low end than my Isonic!) and they go (relatively) fast." I also have the advantage of weight, I am 70 Kg right now, and the margin of advantage of a race/freerace windfoil verus my 7.5 + Isonic are small. Friend of mine at 95-100 Kg race foils with 7-7.8 when I am on 6.5-7.5, but I am never slogging when he isn't. I am sure a 70 Kg on a foil with 7.5 sail will have a better low end than me!
Okay, reread your original post the 17th time and now understand that you were saying that a 2000-2400cm2 wing will crawl. I wouldn't quite say that as the Moses/SAB W1100 is fairly fast but we can debate further points until the cows come home and probably still disagree. Fair enough.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..duzzi said..Paducah said..duzzi said..
As you say a windfoil with a similar surface will start even earlier ... and crawl as well. My experience is that I actually have much better low end than either wind- or wing-foil using my 70 Kg, Isonic 111 and a Point-7 ACX 7.5. I do circles around them. People with a race foil, 8-9 square meters sail and a large race board are a different story. They go early (better low end than my Isonic!) and they go (relatively) fast.
My experience is different. A windfoiler with the same size freerace sail and foil will be off the water way before you by a significant amount and equal in speed up until 14-15 kts at least. If they change down to a smaller wing, they will be even in the straights and still blow you away in the jibes up to the upper teens. They can foil all day in conditions that you may barely get going in at all. By the time you get powered up on your 7.5, some, like me, may have decided to rig down to my 5.4 and off chasing swells to ride.
More or less what I said: "People with a race foil, 8-9 square meters sail and a large race board are a different story. They go early (better low end than my Isonic!) and they go (relatively) fast." I also have the advantage of weight, I am 70 Kg right now, and the margin of advantage of a race/freerace windfoil verus my 7.5 + Isonic are small. Friend of mine at 95-100 Kg race foils with 7-7.8 when I am on 6.5-7.5, but I am never slogging when he isn't. I am sure a 70 Kg on a foil with 7.5 sail will have a better low end than me!
Okay, reread your original post the 17th time and now understand that you were saying that a 2000-2400cm2 wing will crawl. I wouldn't quite say that as the Moses/SAB W1100 is fairly fast but we can debate further points until the cows come home and probably still disagree. Fair enough.
Cows are soo cute when they linger at pasture! (but you are right, in general terms foils have better low end than windsurfs)
Gorge cup has been a run what you bring race for years, foils win far more often then anything else these days.
Add in any windward VMG requirement and the difference isn't even close.
Gorge Cup is a pure VMG Downwind race, not applicable, since you end up 11+ miles upriver from starting point. Useless analogy.
Real world, we sail back to where we started, and don't travel much more than a mile up or downwind.
But talking speed might also be useless, when comparing windsurf, windfoil, and wingfoil.
The sensations are just plain different.
Gorge cup is a normal short format slalom, foils still win most days unless it's nuking.
I'm not saying it's an absolute, but talking to Xavier yesterday, he wasn't very enthused about slalom foiling at all.
He's Starboard, as you know.
He was trying out new front foils this past weekend, all course racing.
On a deviant path....I'm glad you told me that slalom foiling is competitive with slalom boards.
As you might know, I windfoil about 75% of the time with a 600 sq cm front foil. Naish.
I'm not nearly competitive against rec slalom sailors yet, but hope springs eternal.
On windsurf slalom gear, I'm right there but have decreased endurance from old age.
Anyone added or thought of adding a set of US boxes forward of the tuttle box say on a JP 150 or JP 135 hydrofoil board. I note Starboard have boards retailing which have this set up so they work for both wind and wing foiling set ups. I do note these Starboards are narrower than the earlier JPs. Assuming this was done would the JP 150 or JP 135 be too wide for wing foiling ? I suspect not as you can wingding anything even a Windsurfer LT or a SUP without a foil. However the JP being wide might be not as easy as carrying it to the beach etc and manoeuvre in a shore break so will have limitations.
www.windspirit.ca/shop/wing/wing-board/starboard-foil-x-wing/
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..
Anyone added or thought of adding a set of US boxes forward of the tuttle box say on a JP 150 or JP 135 hydrofoil board. I note Starboard have boards retailing which have this set up so they work for both wind and wing foiling set ups. I do note these Starboards are narrower than the earlier JPs. Assuming this was done would the JP 150 or JP 135 be too wide for wing foiling ? I suspect not as you can wingding anything even a Windsurfer LT or a SUP without a foil. However the JP being wide might be not as easy as carrying it to the beach etc and manoeuvre in a shore break so will have limitations.
www.windspirit.ca/shop/wing/wing-board/starboard-foil-x-wing/
A mate wings a Slingshot Wizard 103, it's 30" wide and works fine. He has a Hoverglide fitted to the Tuttle box. I've winged it and the width is no problem, though over time there may be limitations re higher performance.
I added boxes to a 120ltr windsurf board with the idea to windfoil it. Only used it a couple of times but used it to learn to wing. It's a bit more sticky to get flying but was great for learning, others have learned on it now, bit of a borrow board to get through the initial faze.
Select to expand quoteairsail said..RichardG said..
Anyone added or thought of adding a set of US boxes forward of the tuttle box say on a JP 150 or JP 135 hydrofoil board. I note Starboard have boards retailing which have this set up so they work for both wind and wing foiling set ups. I do note these Starboards are narrower than the earlier JPs. Assuming this was done would the JP 150 or JP 135 be too wide for wing foiling ? I suspect not as you can wingding anything even a Windsurfer LT or a SUP without a foil. However the JP being wide might be not as easy as carrying it to the beach etc and manoeuvre in a shore break so will have limitations.
www.windspirit.ca/shop/wing/wing-board/starboard-foil-x-wing/
A mate wings a Slingshot Wizard 103, it's 30" wide and works fine. He has a Hoverglide fitted to the Tuttle box. I've winged it and the width is no problem, though over time there may be limitations re higher performance.
I added boxes to a 120ltr windsurf board with the idea to windfoil it. Only used it a couple of times but used it to learn to wing. It's a bit more sticky to get flying but was great for learning, others have learned on it now, bit of a borrow board to get through the initial faze.
Thanks. Good to hear this information. Also there is this solution : foilmount.com
The Gorge Cup now is a conventional downwind slalom race, with no VMG involved.
In the "old days" the Gorge Cup was a regular upwind/downwind course race that involved all sorts of VMG, wind shifts, covering, etc., all those things you do on a course. It went from big slalom boards to formula, then "evolved" to today's downwind slalom.
Regardless of fin or foil, the winners are ALWAYS the guys and gals that time the start well and stay dry on all their jibes. Pretty simple.
They never go upwind anymore, which is too bad. Slalom has more crowd appeal because it is raced right in front of the spectators at the Event Site and up along Northwave. When they did course in the "old days," the crowd could not see the racers up at the top mark near Welles Island. (I couldn't, either, because I was always so far behind them LOL.)
Gotta keep those spectators happy, ya know.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
The Gorge Cup now is a conventional downwind slalom race, with no VMG involved.
In the "old days" the Gorge Cup was a regular upwind/downwind course race that involved all sorts of VMG, wind shifts, covering, etc., all those things you do on a course. It went from big slalom boards to formula, then "evolved" to today's downwind slalom.
Regardless of fin or foil, the winners are ALWAYS the guys and gals that time the start well and stay dry on all their jibes. Pretty simple.
They never go upwind anymore, which is too bad. Slalom has more crowd appeal because it is raced right in front of the spectators at the Event Site and up along Northwave. When they did course in the "old days," the crowd could not see the racers up at the top mark near Welles Island. (I couldn't, either, because I was always so far behind them LOL.)
Gotta keep those spectators happy, ya know.
Participation is better than spectator sizes. The slalom fleet of 2019 looks small ie 19 whereas you would get much more in slalom and even LT events here in WA for example. The Foil fleet of 2019 is only 7. Similar to foil fleets here, so what is going on at this high end Gorge Cup ? Is foil racing not growing anymore? It does not look good for participation at grass roots. I sincerely hope the 2021 Foil fleet is much bigger. The LT US Nationals being held in the Gorge will likely get gangbusters participation, at least I hope it does and even well known Aussie expat residing in the Gorge, Roo is training for it now with his recently acquired LT. I wonder if there will be a wingding race at the 2021 Gorge Cup and how many will enter it and I hope many. As many as possible in every class please.
gorgecup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/19_Overall.pdf
Lol, it appears it is possible to turn ANY thread on this forum into an LT discussion!!
The Gorge Cup accepts all comers, fin, foil, sail, wing, slalom board, longboard, formula board, wing board, but not kites. Ya run watcha brung. They are happy to set up different classes depending on who shows up with what and how many there are.
Regardless of your gear the race is still the same single-course downwind slalom with a half-dozen jibes and the finish line right in front of the Event Site.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
Regardless of your gear the race is still the same single-course downwind slalom with a half-dozen jibes and the finish line right in front of the Event Site.
It's the jibes that give the foilers the edge. At least that's what the PWA pros training side-by-side in the Canaries concluded.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..segler said..
Regardless of your gear the race is still the same single-course downwind slalom with a half-dozen jibes and the finish line right in front of the Event Site.
It's the jibes that give the foilers the edge. At least that's what the PWA pros training side-by-side in the Canaries concluded.
More specifically when having to gybe at a mark through a bunch of dirty air and chop the extra glide of the foil is huge.
Which is something you just can't capture in casual freeriding where you can pick where you gybe.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
The Gorge Cup accepts all comers, fin, foil, sail, wing, slalom board, longboard, formula board, wing board, but not kites. Ya run watcha brung. They are happy to set up different classes depending on who shows up with what and how many there are.
Regardless of your gear the race is still the same single-course downwind slalom with a half-dozen jibes and the finish line right in front of the Event Site.
Sounds good but removing the upwind means it is less tactical for the older style course boards and less advantageous for them. In the old days when it was an upwind/downwind course, for example how the Naish Dash was run in 1991 when an event was held in the Gorge on 10 August 1991. That 1991 event was seven race course/slalom series.That event was a 2km upwind followed by a zig zag downwind course. That event had 80 racers. Now returning to todays downwind slalom, the last event was in 2019 much lower turnout (26 including 19 slalom and 7 foilers). Sadly just read the Gorge Cup was cancelled 2020 due to COVID-19 and now rumoured cancelled for the 2021 season. Is the 2021 cancellation confirmed ?
uswindsurfing.org/gorge-cup-hood-river/
Did you forget?
Windsurfing has dropped 75% from the '90's.
Did you expect growth in racing?
Do you know 80% of windsurfers don't care about racing?
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Did you forget?
Windsurfing has dropped 75% from the '90's.
Did you expect growth in racing?
Do you know 80% of windsurfers don't care about racing?
True it is trite to say as far as high performance slalom and foil racing just as kitefoil racing is also not growing much. Just confirms winging/wingfoil will grow even more. Lets not kid ourselves that windfoilracing is a growth engine...Formula Mk2. The only windsurf racing growing is the Windsurfer LT and even that is 50% fun and 50% racing. In Western Australia we have now over 70 owners of the LT and we have about a total of 40 boards racing at our last State Titles. It is still growing and it is not stopping. At Mounts Bay Sailing Club alone we now have over 20 LTs in the club and is the largest fleet sailing in races at least twice every week and many times more by other enthusiasts.
Have always liked to buck the trends so I'll just stick with freeride windsurf foiling were i live 5.0 is my biggest sail. I do see some advantage to wing foiling but as with sails you need a quiver maybe three wings at the least and a couple of foil wings.Also mentioned was that when you first start out most people will be on a large 2000cm+ wing to get the feel of it and yes you will go real slow. As with surfing ,windsurfing,kites ect. the pros make it look real good, around here some of the guys are making good progress some are still struggling.
Select to expand quotedejavu said..
I do both and there is an obvious bias against winging here, which is to be expected. With the introduction of HA foils into winging wingers can go fast on a foil. If you're into jumping wingers are getting much higher jumps off of smaller waves. Not many wind foilers are doing tacks on foil but lots of wingers are. As wingers progress, especially with pumping technique, they can wing in super low winds -- the trick is to get on foil.
Tricks are for kids -- and the kids are getting into winging:
Speed!
Jumping off of small waves:
Here's one of the best wind foilers showing what can be done with a wing!
Hi
Why all those wonderful winging videos with incredible jumps and wave riding look to be in 20+ knots conditions?
In those conditions there is another amazing sport which performs well a long ago without the weight and risk of a foil nor the long ropes of a kite, that's regular windsurfing with small sails (<5m2)
IMO, the only problem of windsurfing is light wind. I tried kitesurfing for light winds and kept windsurfing for medium and strong winds, but it was too many equipment to combine, so I gave up kitesurfing, and focused in float&ride windsurfing
Now my hope is freeride windfoiling with the same small sails, which is much easier to combine with windsurfing than any other wind sport.
Anyway, everybody likes to look for new sensations. I respect it all. Who knows? maybe I will try winging later.
Select to expand quoteRichardG said..segler said..
The Gorge Cup accepts all comers, fin, foil, sail, wing, slalom board, longboard, formula board, wing board, but not kites. Ya run watcha brung. They are happy to set up different classes depending on who shows up with what and how many there are.
Regardless of your gear the race is still the same single-course downwind slalom with a half-dozen jibes and the finish line right in front of the Event Site.
Sounds good but removing the upwind means it is less tactical for the older style course boards and less advantageous for them. In the old days when it was an upwind/downwind course, for example how the Naish Dash was run in 1991 when an event was held in the Gorge on 10 August 1991. That 1991 event was seven race course/slalom series.That event was a 2km upwind followed by a zig zag downwind course. That event had 80 racers. Now returning to todays downwind slalom, the last event was in 2019 much lower turnout (26 including 19 slalom and 7 foilers). Sadly just read the Gorge Cup was cancelled 2020 due to COVID-19 and now rumoured cancelled for the 2021 season. Is the 2021 cancellation confirmed ?
uswindsurfing.org/gorge-cup-hood-river/
Gorge cup was changed to a slalom format because that suits what 99.99% of the people who sail in the Gorge have for equipment. Nobody is using course racing equipment for free sailing in the Gorge.
You will frequently see people race the cup on their usual fast blasting boards and sails when it's windy or the same sails and a (non course race) foil board when it's lighter.
In my mind this is preferable to the pre-foiling era of 85cm slalom boards and 9-10m sails with their attendant larger booms, masts, fins and narrow wind range.
Personally I enjoy course racing, I grew up in dinghies. But it doesn't suit the environment (in the Gorge) and tends to require equipment that few people would choose to free sail.
From what I understand the course race capital of the US is probably the Bay area. They are all foiling too.
Half are still windfoiling, half are learning wing, which takes them away from windfoil course racing.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..RichardG said..segler said..
The Gorge Cup accepts all comers, fin, foil, sail, wing, slalom board, longboard, formula board, wing board, but not kites. Ya run watcha brung. They are happy to set up different classes depending on who shows up with what and how many there are.
Regardless of your gear the race is still the same single-course downwind slalom with a half-dozen jibes and the finish line right in front of the Event Site.
Sounds good but removing the upwind means it is less tactical for the older style course boards and less advantageous for them. In the old days when it was an upwind/downwind course, for example how the Naish Dash was run in 1991 when an event was held in the Gorge on 10 August 1991. That 1991 event was seven race course/slalom series.That event was a 2km upwind followed by a zig zag downwind course. That event had 80 racers. Now returning to todays downwind slalom, the last event was in 2019 much lower turnout (26 including 19 slalom and 7 foilers). Sadly just read the Gorge Cup was cancelled 2020 due to COVID-19 and now rumoured cancelled for the 2021 season. Is the 2021 cancellation confirmed ?
uswindsurfing.org/gorge-cup-hood-river/
Gorge cup was changed to a slalom format because that suits what 99.99% of the people who sail in the Gorge have for equipment. Nobody is using course racing equipment for free sailing in the Gorge.
You will frequently see people race the cup on their usual fast blasting boards and sails when it's windy or the same sails and a (non course race) foil board when it's lighter.
In my mind this is preferable to the pre-foiling era of 85cm slalom boards and 9-10m sails with their attendant larger booms, masts, fins and narrow wind range.
Personally I enjoy course racing, I grew up in dinghies. But it doesn't suit the environment (in the Gorge) and tends to require equipment that few people would choose to free sail.
From what I understand the course race capital of the US is probably the Bay area. They are all foiling too.
I love foiling on my race gear, and i dont just do upwind downwind stuff on it either as i find it just awesome to use all round. As for whoever was saying they can get going in 10 knots on slalom gear - all i can say is they must be the most efficient sailor in the world coz i'm only 70 kgs, have been racing slalom for years and i can get going way earlier and have a lot more powered up fun on foils than any slalom gear in sub 14 knots. Foils have revolutionised lightwind sailing and opened up a whole range of conditions that standard gear couldnt in my opinion.
I'm also lightweight, 73 kg., and need 16 knots with slalom board and 7.0. Isonic 111 with 40/44 fins.
That same 16, usually 5.0 and foiling down to around 9 knots breeze. That's with the 600 sq cm foil, the 1220 would be really powered.
I started winging because it's easier to launch in waves and ride depowered. However, I still expected to be windfoiling most of the time. Now I'm not so sure!
I recently had a session where I tried both back to back in about 20 knots after a 6 week break from windfoiling. The windfoil felt big and heavy even with a 3.7m sail. After an hour I switched straight over to the wing (3.5m). The difference was amazing! Everything seemed so light and I felt like I had better control of the foil without the rig influencing the board. The wing was only about 1 knot slower and much easier to jump. Also foiling tacks are possible for mere mortals like me!
I still prefer the feel of gybing a windfoil and carving downwind but everything else now seems better on the wing.
Select to expand quotesimonp123 said..
I started winging because it's easier to launch in waves and ride depowered. However, I still expected to be windfoiling most of the time. Now I'm not so sure!
I recently had a session where I tried both back to back in about 20 knots after a 6 week break from windfoiling. The windfoil felt big and heavy even with a 3.7m sail. After an hour I switched straight over to the wing (3.5m). The difference was amazing! Everything seemed so light and I felt like I had better control of the foil without the rig influencing the board. The wing was only about 1 knot slower and much easier to jump. Also foiling tacks are possible for mere mortals like me!
I still prefer the feel of gybing a windfoil and carving downwind but everything else now seems better on the wing.
Alas, an all too common story.
Sigh... wither windfoiling and windsurfing with it.
