Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
Was out today windfoiling, saw a guy who has been trying to learn winging on a foil with what I guess is a swell/wave wing (3000 cm2) and a relatively huge board, he is probably 65 kg, was struggling for the last few months on that equipment, last time I pointed out the main issue (swell setup being used on flattish bay). But today he had a whole new wing kit, Naish foil and SB small wing board, he was going back and forth on the foil easily!
The other thing I noticed, since we were setting up next to each other, is how fast he was to get on the water with the wing kit, big plus.
But a guy watching us both wondered why he was not foiling like me (I was going out into the bay with hard upwind angles) but instead the winger stayed close and parallel to shore with an onshore wind. All the wingers do the same where I am, I explained it being due to the equipment and endurance. The big advantage with a windfoil kit is I got away from the jetskiers, while the winger was dodging them both ways since they tend to either stay close/parallel to shore so crowd the area, or go way out into the bay where they are spread way out. All the noise alone from the jetskiers is obnoxious on a weekend anyway, glad it is easy for me on a windfoil to get out into the bay where it is quiet
Much more confortable doing some miles on windfoil
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..eluviis said..Grantmac said..
If you are really dedicated to trying both foiling disciplines then you picked the wrong foil unfortunately. The Armstrong setup just doesn't work for windfoiling.
If I was picking one manufacturer for both it would be Axis. Second might be SAB but as a distant second.
I kinda figured that. A bit late now since I've already used the Armstrong once. I'm not going to try and return it.
This can go two ways. I try a smaller wing that I would use for winging anyway, and if I like, I source a longer fuse... OR... I end up buying an axis foil setup and use that for wind-foiing. Yeah, it's a lot of money to have two... but you live and you learn, right?
A the end of the day, I can't see what a smaller high-aspect Armstrong front wing with a longer fuse would not work for wind-foiling. Armstrong obviously makes top of the line stuff, but they are focused on wing and wave... not windsurfing. But come on? It can't be THAT much different, can it?
Yes it is that much different, including geometry, design, and construction.
Yeah, I suppose. Well, either way. I'm recovering from an injury and should be back on the water sometime in the next few days. I have a 110 Tabou Magic Carpet coming in which will make it easier to get comfortable on rather than fighting an 85L board... although I can get up on it and ride that small, it's just too much work and I'm still falling a lot. This is all going to be with a wing until I figure out what I'm going to do about the wind foil. I have a Goya Cypher 5.4 coming in for that... plus I have the board, but alas, don't have the correct foil for it. If I get lucky it'll blow enough to windsurf with a fin.
Select to expand quotethedoor said..Sandman1221 said..
Was out today windfoiling, saw a guy who has been trying to learn winging on a foil with what I guess is a swell/wave wing (3000 cm2) and a relatively huge board, he is probably 65 kg, was struggling for the last few months on that equipment, last time I pointed out the main issue (swell setup being used on flattish bay). But today he had a whole new wing kit, Naish foil and SB small wing board, he was going back and forth on the foil easily!
The other thing I noticed, since we were setting up next to each other, is how fast he was to get on the water with the wing kit, big plus.
But a guy watching us both wondered why he was not foiling like me (I was going out into the bay with hard upwind angles) but instead the winger stayed close and parallel to shore with an onshore wind. All the wingers do the same where I am, I explained it being due to the equipment and endurance. The big advantage with a windfoil kit is I got away from the jetskiers, while the winger was dodging them both ways since they tend to either stay close/parallel to shore so crowd the area, or go way out into the bay where they are spread way out. All the noise alone from the jetskiers is obnoxious on a weekend anyway, glad it is easy for me on a windfoil to get out into the bay where it is quiet
Much more confortable doing some miles on windfoil
Very nice! I'm rather envious :)
I remember kiting I could do achieve some ridiculous upwind angles... much more so than on a freeride, wave or freestyle windsurf board... so long as it was really windy.
Just my input on set up both for winD and winG.
I use Aeromod for winD (and now for winG as a noob) and Aeromod boss recently turned his focus on winG. That guy is very involved and works with true aerodynamic design background. After many test it turns out that the wing and stab are usable for both, he just added a larger 1300 that is aimed at slower optimal speed. But he designed a new fuselage as obviously the mast has to be more forward for winging, rake can also differ, and of course he now has a dual track plate mast to match the most commonly used for winging.
Concerning board, I use an unusually short 1.7m board for winD, and some proficient winGer bud gave a try winGing it as it seems to be comparable to a wing board : it was definitely not working. Foil not at the correct place, volume distribution not correct for winG, and rocker line inappropriate.
However, I bought the new winG specific front wing, and it turns out to be a top freeride winD front wing.
Here are some vid of ride using it both for wind and winG (but again, I am a real winG noob, sub 10 session count)
^^^ Thanks for the insight. There is a lot of knowledge there. That Tabou Magic Carpet that I ordered is 189cm, so not too far off from your board there. Just a tad bigger.
But yes, I think, given what you are saying, if I buy any other wings for the Armstrong setup, It'll be because I want then for WinG.
Probably not the best idea to drop $500 on a longer fuselage for WinD if there are a few other differences that I might not even understand yet. It's probably smarter to put that $500 towards an actual WinD foil setup.
I pointed out that my windfoil board 'looks' like a winG board, but after testing from a proficient winger, it is not. I don't have enougth personal experience over wing board, but from what I've understood from more advanced riders over here, the most important isn't outline (as always) but rocker line. There seems to be some convergence toward progressive rocker, with almost no flat section. Rake seems also very sensitive, and some foil/board don't match out of the box, but require fine rake tuning using shim plate. The shaper Kakoo is giging some hints on that point on his website, but I only see his report in french, and google will probably mess it up all wrong. Better ask your buddies
Select to expand quote6u1d0 said..
Just my input on set up both for winD and winG.
I use Aeromod for winD (and now for winG as a noob) and Aeromod boss recently turned his focus on winG. That guy is very involved and works with true aerodynamic design background. After many test it turns out that the wing and stab are usable for both, he just added a larger 1300 that is aimed at slower optimal speed. But he designed a new fuselage as obviously the mast has to be more forward for winging, rake can also differ, and of course he now has a dual track plate mast to match the most commonly used for winging.
Concerning board, I use an unusually short 1.7m board for winD, and some proficient winGer bud gave a try winGing it as it seems to be comparable to a wing board : it was definitely not working. Foil not at the correct place, volume distribution not correct for winG, and rocker line inappropriate.
However, I bought the new winG specific front wing, and it turns out to be a top freeride winD front wing.
Here are some vid of ride using it both for wind and winG (but again, I am a real winG noob, sub 10 session count)
So yes, you can use a winD foil for winGing, but it requires specific parts (espacially fuselage)
I wouldn't use a winG foil mast for winD : probably not appropriate considering load applied.
Sick riding bro. How do you feel about top speed Wing versus Wind when using same foil? Do you feel you want similar canvas sail versus hand kite for same foil?
Gotta remember, the physics is different.
A wing has a lot of vertical UP component, which is good in its own right. However, to get the horizontal power you have to lay it out there.
A sail has only horizontal component, very little vertical UP. As a result--all other things being equal--a sail will be faster than a wing.
Select to expand quoteeluviis said..
Probably not the best idea to drop $500 on a longer fuselage for WinD if there are a few other differences that I might not even understand yet. It's probably smarter to put that $500 towards an actual WinD foil setup.
Have read on the Armstrong thread that the mast isn't very stiff when used for windfoiling, either. For the cost of one fuse and mediocre mast stiffness in a windfoiling context, you could be close to finding a used SS i76, etc.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
Gotta remember, the physics is different.
A wing has a lot of vertical UP component, which is good in its own right. However, to get the horizontal power you have to lay it out there.
A sail has only horizontal component, very little vertical UP. As a result--all other things being equal--a sail will be faster than a wing.
The wing only has a significant vertical component when you're overpowered. With the right wing size I hold it almost in the same position as a windsurfing sail. The centre of effort is much lower too (increased by holding the strut almost at waist height) so you don't need a wide board to counteract the larger heeling moment you get with a windsurf sail.
The biggest difference I notice is that wings have a fuller profile and leading edge making them less efficient upwind but perhaps better off the wind. With the same foil my top speed is a a knot or two faster with a wing than a windsurf sail. I think that's because I find it more controllable on a deep broad reach but I suspect my upwind speeds and angles are better with a sail.
Based on my observation using similar freeride foils the wing will have higher angle but less speed. Similar VMG.
The wing can provide some lift when you're getting started but actually has quite a bit of downforce once it's vertical.
Select to expand quoteeluviis said..
I'm wondering how the wing sizes for foil compare between wind and wing foiling in the same conditions. It appears that beginners winging are using anywhere from 1500cm2 to 2200cm2 front wings for light wind, specially if they are heavier riders. Experienced riders seem to be between 1100cm2 to 1600cm2, for winging in light wing. Give or take., How does this compare to wind foiling? And what if the wind picks up above 15knots?
I started out foiling wind-foiling. I can def say that the sail is far more efficient then the wing. If by efficient we mean power, speed and upwind.
It's just straight up physics. If wings ever figure out how to keep the stiffness and massively reduce the leading edge diameter, the sport will take a quantum leap forward. But it's already so much damn fun.
However, wings win in other ways, like changing the angle of attack on more of a 3D plane, which helps w lift and unweighting. Weight! Ease of rigging and derigging and storage.
But where I was hooked was surfing and being able to flag it out.
Select to expand quotesimonp65 said..segler said..
Gotta remember, the physics is different.
A wing has a lot of vertical UP component, which is good in its own right. However, to get the horizontal power you have to lay it out there.
A sail has only horizontal component, very little vertical UP. As a result--all other things being equal--a sail will be faster than a wing.
The wing only has a significant vertical component when you're overpowered. With the right wing size I hold it almost in the same position as a windsurfing sail. The centre of effort is much lower too (increased by holding the strut almost at waist height) so you don't need a wide board to counteract the larger heeling moment you get with a windsurf sail.
The biggest difference I notice is that wings have a fuller profile and leading edge making them less efficient upwind but perhaps better off the wind. With the same foil my top speed is a a knot or two faster with a wing than a windsurf sail. I think that's because I find it more controllable on a deep broad reach but I suspect my upwind speeds and angles are better with a sail.
My fastest speed on a windfoil is going hard upwind, the difference in speed between crosswind and upwind is dramatic on a windfoil.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
But a guy watching us both wondered why he was not foiling like me (I was going out into the bay with hard upwind angles) but instead the winger stayed close and parallel to shore with an onshore wind. All the wingers do the same where I am, I explained it being due to the equipment and endurance. The big advantage with a windfoil kit is I got away from the jetskiers, while the winger was dodging them both ways since they tend to either stay close/parallel to shore so crowd the area, or go way out into the bay where they are spread way out. All the noise alone from the jetskiers is obnoxious on a weekend anyway, glad it is easy for me on a windfoil to get out into the bay where it is quiet
Funny. At our spot, the one person on the water who is out furthest is almost always a winger. With gear that can go upwind well (foils and kites), it's largely a matter of personal preference, once you're past the beginner phase. Some windfoilers and even kiters often stick to the same back-and-forth lanes that most windsurfers are stuck in. Sometimes that's habit, sometimes a desire to show off, sometime fear of deep water, and who knows what else.
Others only cross the windsurfer lanes when going out and coming in, and go miles upwind or downwind every session. Nothing illustrates the differences better than GPS tracks. Here's a windsurf track:
Here's a wing track (same spot, same day):
As the wing tracks show, the spot (Cabarete, DR) has great swell to play with on a wing.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..Sandman1221 said..
But a guy watching us both wondered why he was not foiling like me (I was going out into the bay with hard upwind angles) but instead the winger stayed close and parallel to shore with an onshore wind. All the wingers do the same where I am, I explained it being due to the equipment and endurance. The big advantage with a windfoil kit is I got away from the jetskiers, while the winger was dodging them both ways since they tend to either stay close/parallel to shore so crowd the area, or go way out into the bay where they are spread way out. All the noise alone from the jetskiers is obnoxious on a weekend anyway, glad it is easy for me on a windfoil to get out into the bay where it is quiet
Funny. At our spot, the one person on the water who is out furthest is almost always a winger. With gear that can go upwind well (foils and kites), it's largely a matter of personal preference, once you're past the beginner phase. Some windfoilers and even kiters often stick to the same back-and-forth lanes that most windsurfers are stuck in. Sometimes that's habit, sometimes a desire to show off, sometime fear of deep water, and who knows what else.
Others only cross the windsurfer lanes when going out and coming in, and go miles upwind or downwind every session. Nothing illustrates the differences better than GPS tracks. Here's a windsurf track:
Here's a wing track (same spot, same day):
As the wing tracks show, the spot (Cabarete, DR) has great swell to play with on a wing.
based on those two images, windsurfers go out further from land than do wingers.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
based on those two images, windsurfers go out further from land than do wingers.
If that's your takeaway from the tracks, it shows a certain bias. It's also incorrect, since 99% of all windsurfing, kiting, foiling is inside the reef, or just far enough past it to be able to jibe outside the breaking waves.
Windfoilers stay inside because that's where the swell is best. Quite obvious even in this single set of tracks. Most wingers preferred the non-breaking sections inside to the breaking waves.
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
Sick riding bro. How do you feel about top speed Wing versus Wind when using same foil? Do you feel you want similar canvas sail versus hand kite for same foil?
I really can't say anything about winGing speed as I am a noob. But using the same front wing and stab as Alex (Aeromod boss) who is now quite good at winGing, I can tell you I am not much faster than he is now on broad reach and he is definitly faster going up wind.
From what I see at my home spot, it is obvious that winging get crazy angle up wind : they just put the wing up and can handle almost head wind.
Plus winDfoiling your foil is never working perfectly aligned with your path, as for fin windsurfing, there's an angle and we are going slightly sideway to get some side pressure from the mast to counter the drift whereas proficient winGers have their body aligned with the mast and simply use the foil to counter drift. Then the foil is perfectly aligned with the flow, and gets much less drag.
You can experience this winGing : most noob as me are most of the time not very good at maintaining the foil in the flow, and you can feel the foil dragging water. Then by chance you align it correctly, and all of a sudden everything gets smooth and you get a snap of acceleration.
Plus considering how ridiculous profile a winG is, just the fact that it works prooves that there's a huge potentiality for improvement.
I bet that winGers will get really fast in all aspect soon.
Now, I have the same thought about kite, but I prefer the flow style of windsurfing, even though I believe that both kite and wing concept are more efficient regarding physics.
Select to expand quote6u1d0 said..thedoor said..
Sick riding bro. How do you feel about top speed Wing versus Wind when using same foil? Do you feel you want similar canvas sail versus hand kite for same foil?
I really can't say anything about winGing speed as I am a noob. But using the same front wing and stab as Alex (Aeromod boss) who is now quite good at winGing, I can tell you I am not much faster than he is now on broad reach and he is definitly faster going up wind.
From what I see at my home spot, it is obvious that winging get crazy angle up wind : they just put the wing up and can handle almost head wind.
Plus winDfoiling your foil is never working perfectly aligned with your path, as for fin windsurfing, there's an angle and we are going slightly sideway to get some side pressure from the mast to counter the drift whereas proficient winGers have their body aligned with the mast and simply use the foil to counter drift. Then the foil is perfectly aligned with the flow, and gets much less drag.
You can experience this winGing : most noob as me are most of the time not very good at maintaining the foil in the flow, and you can feel the foil dragging water. Then by chance you align it correctly, and all of a sudden everything gets smooth and you get a snap of acceleration.
Plus considering how ridiculous profile a winG is, just the fact that it works prooves that there's a huge potentiality for improvement.
I bet that winGers will get really fast in all aspect soon.
Now, I have the same thought about kite, but I prefer the flow style of windsurfing, event though I believe that both kite and wing concept are more efficient regarding physics.
I know a instructor who taught kite foiling and now teaches winging. On the same bay, with a kite foil he would be all over bay going fast on a race foil, with a wing he just goes parallel to the ~1 mile long beach.
I'm listening guys. Thanks. I'm desperate to get back on the water and I'm likely not going to waste a day figuring out how to wing foil... so likely, I'm going to head up North a bit closer to the end of the week and get out there on my regular windsurfing board and fin. I think it may be windy enough. I have a nice carbon boom arriving and I'll all excited to use it. Not sure of it'll be here in time though.
Last time I was out nearly 3 weeks ago I got all scratched up and I'm only now just about healed up. I'll leave the foiling til next week or something when the larger board arrives so I can just easily float and not fight the board.
Select to expand quotethedoor said..
Much more confortable doing some miles on windfoil
Winging with a harness gives you the same ability to cover ground:
Select to expand quotesimonp65 said..thedoor said..
Much more confortable doing some miles on windfoil
Winging with a harness gives you the same ability to cover ground:
I have never seen a winger using a harness, with a sail/boom you can lean out against the wind pressure on the sail since the sail is being pushed laterally, but with a wing that seems a little awkward to do since wing is both lifting upward and being pushed laterally, pictures please!
Select to expand quoteeluviis said..
I'm desperate to get back on the water and I'm likely not going to waste a day figuring out how to wing foil.
I have watched quite a few windsurfers starting to windfoil and wingfoil over the past years, often in week-long camps where multiple guys learned to windfoil. Most windfoilers will get some flight time in the first sessions, but those are usually very short rides (less than 50 - 100 m). To learn to control flight height and reach reasonably stable flight, they need 5-10 sessions.
For winging, there more things to learn initially, and foiling in the first session may or may not happen. But reaching reasonably stably flight within 10 sessions also seems quite common. After that, many wingers progress a lot faster than windfoilers. I've seen wingers foil through jibe within a couple of weeks after starting to work on jibes. With a sail, most windfoilers I've seen needed a lot longer to foil through.
There are, of course, plenty of exceptions. I've seen a guy jump on a windfoil and get long, stable flights within minutes. He's very skilled, though, and still competes in longboard racing at the world level. I've also seen a winger get stable flights within her first session on a wing, but she was already good at windfoiling.
On the other hand, I have seen both windfoilers and wingers struggle for months with very limited progress. One main factor in these cases seemed to be poor gear setup. One example is a 120 lb friend who got the biggest Armstrong wing possible, thinking it would give her an advantage. She never had a chance until she got a smaller wing, and added two shims to reduce lift. Many had tried to help her, but could not, until she met a winger who was married to a winger of similar weight.
Another example is a windfoiler who "mixed and matched" foil and windfoil board, and ended up with a setup where the front wing was way too far in the back. He made almost no progress in his first 10 or 20 sessions, until someone tested his setup and pointed out the changes he needed to make.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..eluviis said..
I'm desperate to get back on the water and I'm likely not going to waste a day figuring out how to wing foil.
I have watched quite a few windsurfers starting to windfoil and wingfoil over the past years, often in week-long camps where multiple guys learned to windfoil. Most windfoilers will get some flight time in the first sessions, but those are usually very short rides (less than 50 - 100 m). To learn to control flight height and reach reasonably stable flight, they need 5-10 sessions.
For winging, there more things to learn initially, and foiling in the first session may or may not happen. But reaching reasonably stably flight within 10 sessions also seems quite common. After that, many wingers progress a lot faster than windfoilers. I've seen wingers foil through jibe within a couple of weeks after starting to work on jibes. With a sail, most windfoilers I've seen needed a lot longer to foil through.
There are, of course, plenty of exceptions. I've seen a guy jump on a windfoil and get long, stable flights within minutes. He's very skilled, though, and still competes in longboard racing at the world level. I've also seen a winger get stable flights within her first session on a wing, but she was already good at windfoiling.
On the other hand, I have seen both windfoilers and wingers struggle for months with very limited progress. One main factor in these cases seemed to be poor gear setup. One example is a 120 lb friend who got the biggest Armstrong wing possible, thinking it would give her an advantage. She never had a chance until she got a smaller wing, and added two shims to reduce lift. Many had tried to help her, but could not, until she met a winger who was married to a winger of similar weight.
Another example is a windfoiler who "mixed and matched" foil and windfoil board, and ended up with a setup where the front wing was way too far in the back. He made almost no progress in his first 10 or 20 sessions, until someone tested his setup and pointed out the changes he needed to make.
I think you nailed it with this one. If I knew what I was looking for I could easily spot what I need to make the foil work... but because I don't, I'm likely better off doing some research to find a good winD specific foil for my weight and go with that separately while I keep the Armstrong exclusively for WinG.
My take is too many variables when you compare wing vs. wind foil. Generally ,correctly tuned, size of front wing on foil could be the same for both. But if you compare, for example, windfoil race gear it is totally diff vs. wing freeride. Now there's a trend for wingfoilers to go for bigger wings, smaller foils with higher aspect and smaller boards, that changes physics again.
Nothing wrong with wasting a day (or 8) figuring out how to wingfoil. Part of the fun.
Select to expand quoteeluviis said..
If I knew what I was looking for I could easily spot what I need to make the foil work... but because I don't, I'm likely better off doing some research to find a good winD specific foil for my weight and go with that separately while I keep the Armstrong exclusively for WinG.
You could consider buying a used foil to get started with windfoiling, and upgrade it later. Just yesterday, a friend windfoiled for the first on a Slingshot i84 I had sold her. She got up for a few short runs, and was very excited about that. I borrowed her gear to check the tuning (she used an old HyperSonic 125 windsurf board), and was surprised how easy and steady the i84 was. I have since switched to various Starboard foils from 800 to 2000, which I've all grown to like a lot, but I think for beginner windfoiling, the Slingshot Infiniti foils are easier (84 if you're close to 200 lb, 76 if lighter, 99 in heavier or the wind is light). The Starboard 2000 front wing, which is similar in size to the i84, feels a lot livelier and turnier than the i84. That's great for me now, because it makes marginal sessions more interesting, but I think I would have struggled more when learning.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
I have never seen a winger using a harness, with a sail/boom you can lean out against the wind pressure on the sail since the sail is being pushed laterally, but with a wing that seems a little awkward to do since wing is both lifting upward and being pushed laterally, pictures please!
Select to expand quotesimonp65 said..Sandman1221 said..
I have never seen a winger using a harness, with a sail/boom you can lean out against the wind pressure on the sail since the sail is being pushed laterally, but with a wing that seems a little awkward to do since wing is both lifting upward and being pushed laterally, pictures please!
Thanks Simon!, guessing he can not load up a lot of weight with the harness (hence the hunched stance) because the wing's inflatable boom would collapse under too much pressure.
Select to expand quoteThanks Simon!, guessing he can not load up a lot of weight with the harness (hence the hunched stance) because the wing's inflatable boom would collapse under too much pressure.
You can load up a wing just as much as a sail. The inflatable booms are really rigid and can easily take all your weight without deforming in any noticeable way.
Sam Light in the picture is pro kiter and I think he's using a sort of kite foil stance. A windsurf style stance with a straight back also works.
Select to expand quotesimonp65 said..Thanks Simon!, guessing he can not load up a lot of weight with the harness (hence the hunched stance) because the wing's inflatable boom would collapse under too much pressure.
You can load up a wing just as much as a sail. The inflatable booms are really rigid and can easily take all your weight without deforming in any noticeable way.
Sam Light in the picture is pro kiter and I think he's using a sort of kite foil stance. A windsurf style stance with a straight back also works.
guess you really have to pay attention to your foil height with that setup, since wing tip is way below the board, easy to catch a wave if you were on waves, looks like he is on flat water but all the same it could trip you up on flat water too.
