Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
Compared to SS boards, made for SS foil, the geometry, especially mast track, looks off. But if it works for you, then great!
Personally, I think the discussion of swing weight as an issue in foiling is just BS to get people to buy shorter boards that are harder to uphaul and tack!
Hello Sandman, I am now in the design of a board and I start realizing that depending on where you want the volume to be you need to make some choices. given a volume if you beleieve you need more volume on the back as I think, then you need to take of some from the front, if you believ you need to have a shorter board to get up on the foil quicker, then you ned to chop the nose, swing weight is a benefit? May be, but the previous mentioned factors already moved in that direction anyway.
Now it remains to understand how much volume is enough for you (not others) to uphaul and sail the board. This I actually don't know by numbers, so I need to try and get the risk of building a board that would be to difficult to uphaul and/or ride...will see.
We all come from windsurfing so we are used to have a board under our feet and to start from there with windsurfing technique, but we start realizing that foiling is different and we are getting far from windsurfing as we go try, fail and eventually understand and improve.
Marketing is part of the game I believe, they sell us cutouts, which I do not believe in, they make borads to please the larger buyer population, not to be effective, most of the design need to be aestetically nice and attractive, function is second or third position, so we need to manage this as well to sort out what is really improvement and what is ...marketing. To aggravate the situation, windfoiling is a nice, and a part from IQ not much more justify huge investment which are all going to wingfoiling at the moment. Some brands took of the windfoil boards from their offer, others are stuck in old design. This to say your doubts are legitimate, you need to test, try and make your own judgment.
Ciao
Edoardo
Design phase completed, here is my project for the new board 190x70x129 liters-ish. The board should cover quite a range, max sail would be 6.7, not to large to get early lift, not to narrow either for carrying large sail and upwind performance. There is quite a possibility for tuning with 10" tracks for both foil mast base and UJ, several option for footstraps as well, on the back I will probably avoid installing the middle spaced ones and leave the central and the more external ones. The inner straps option and the position of the mast base track at 97 cm from stern would allow for some good wave freeride. Shape is simple, I do not have a CNC machine so for hand made shaping is useless to target for less than 1 mm precision, no cut out foreseen either, targeting early release and accepting touch downs being a bit more sticky. Rocker line is totally flat till mast base at 95 cm from stern then scooping to 11 cm on the bow, slight V from 100 to 160 cm from stern, rails are full, just tiny tucked in from 100 all the way to bow.
It resembles a fattened wizard 114.
Construction will be full sandwich vacuum bagged.
I made a mockup to check dimensions for real, the black stuff inserts are on the deck the red ones go on the bottom.
Thank you all for being so patient answering my questions!
Select to expand quotedimacced said..
Design phase completed, here is my project for the new board 190x70x129 liters-ish. The board should cover quite a range, max sail would be 6.7, not to large to get early lift, not to narrow either for carrying large sail and upwind performance. There is quite a possibility for tuning with 10" tracks for both foil mast base and UJ, several option for footstraps as well, on the back I will probably avoid installing the middle spaced ones and leave the central and the more external ones. The inner straps option and the position of the mast base track at 97 cm from stern would allow for some good wave freeride. Shape is simple, I do not have a CNC machine so for hand made shaping is useless to target for less than 1 mm precision, no cut out foreseen either, targeting early release and accepting touch downs being a bit more sticky. Rocker line is totally flat till mast base at 95 cm from stern then scooping to 11 cm on the bow, slight V from 100 to 160 cm from stern, rails are full, just tiny tucked in from 100 all the way to bow.
It resembles a fattened wizard 114.
Construction will be full sandwich vacuum bagged.
I made a mockup to check dimensions for real, the black stuff inserts are on the deck the red ones go on the bottom.
Thank you all for being so patient answering my questions!
WoopWoop! This looks fun Edoardo! I'll bet you enjoy the build and the ride!
I just rode a loaner board (thanks Jim O!!) that I really enjoyed, it's similar to your design. I took some pics and dims to document it.
Thanks! Nice to have some feedback, as you know this Activity Is quite emotionally intense, given the expectatons and the investment
Select to expand quotedimacced said..
Thanks! Nice to have some feedback, as you know this Activity Is quite emotionally intense, given the expectatons and the investment
Don't let it stress you! You're doing it for fun and education, you have already had fun and learned something! Expectations are a CHOICE that you have control of. Hats off for going for it!
Select to expand quotedimacced said..
Soooo right! Thanks for the support.
Looks good Edoardo... I do worry a little about the long flat not releasing so early? Especially with the very wide tail... it may make it more difficult to pump the board off the water? .... though it may make for a very easy "passive" release due to the low drag...
Hard to say though... Good luck!
Select to expand quotedimacced said..
Design phase completed, here is my project for the new board 190x70x129 liters-ish. The board should cover quite a range, max sail would be 6.7, not to large to get early lift, not to narrow either for carrying large sail and upwind performance. There is quite a possibility for tuning with 10" tracks for both foil mast base and UJ, several option for footstraps as well, on the back I will probably avoid installing the middle spaced ones and leave the central and the more external ones. The inner straps option and the position of the mast base track at 97 cm from stern would allow for some good wave freeride. Shape is simple, I do not have a CNC machine so for hand made shaping is useless to target for less than 1 mm precision, no cut out foreseen either, targeting early release and accepting touch downs being a bit more sticky. Rocker line is totally flat till mast base at 95 cm from stern then scooping to 11 cm on the bow, slight V from 100 to 160 cm from stern, rails are full, just tiny tucked in from 100 all the way to bow.
It resembles a fattened wizard 114.
Construction will be full sandwich vacuum bagged.
I made a mockup to check dimensions for real, the black stuff inserts are on the deck the red ones go on the bottom.
Thank you all for being so patient answering my questions!
Reckon it looks good
Go for it!!
Select to expand quotegorgesailor said..dimacced said..
Soooo right! Thanks for the support.
Looks good Edoardo... I do worry a little about the long flat not releasing so early? Especially with the very wide tail... it may make it more difficult to pump the board off the water? .... though it may make for a very easy "passive" release due to the low drag...
Hard to say though... Good luck!
Thank you gorgesailor for your thoughts, these where my concern as well during design. I confess I relied a lot on feedback from the guys who have done their own custom board and reported how they behaved, expecially 2Keen and CAN17, who made a board quite radical, with much volume on the back standing area, with totally flat straight bottom and larger than mine reporting good performance in taking off. My board has the widest point little back than middle board, and shrinks to 64 cm on the back. I didn't use cutouts since I don't believe they are helping in early flying but rather on reducing touch downs sticking if at speed, and the volume I would have taken off with these from tail would have been negligible, so not helping much in hallowing rocking the board for release. The width on the back is needed to hallow for upwind performance with the larger sail which I felt to be missing in my previous board. As you state is a bit of a guess. From my experience on the water I found that is key for early flight to get into both straps and pump from there as soon as possible, so my bet is to have enough volume to do so almost from still. Despite any thought then the proof can be given only by the water testing...will see, I cross fingers!
Select to expand quote2keen said..dimacced said..
Design phase completed, here is my project for the new board 190x70x129 liters-ish. The board should cover quite a range, max sail would be 6.7, not to large to get early lift, not to narrow either for carrying large sail and upwind performance. There is quite a possibility for tuning with 10" tracks for both foil mast base and UJ, several option for footstraps as well, on the back I will probably avoid installing the middle spaced ones and leave the central and the more external ones. The inner straps option and the position of the mast base track at 97 cm from stern would allow for some good wave freeride. Shape is simple, I do not have a CNC machine so for hand made shaping is useless to target for less than 1 mm precision, no cut out foreseen either, targeting early release and accepting touch downs being a bit more sticky. Rocker line is totally flat till mast base at 95 cm from stern then scooping to 11 cm on the bow, slight V from 100 to 160 cm from stern, rails are full, just tiny tucked in from 100 all the way to bow.
It resembles a fattened wizard 114.
Construction will be full sandwich vacuum bagged.
I made a mockup to check dimensions for real, the black stuff inserts are on the deck the red ones go on the bottom.
Thank you all for being so patient answering my questions!
Reckon it looks good
Go for it!!
Thanks! I will. Will see if I will be able to make it as designed, I should be able to bend the PVC over the corners given the simple shape...will see ans share progresses along the path...now sourcing material from most convenient suppliers
"I should be able to bend the PVC over the corners given the simple shape"..
Airex bends way better than standard pvc and I thinks it's readily available in Eu.
Its more expensive and so I use it only for the areas needed (front 30cm rear 30cm usually) the remainder of the board I do in corecell. Screw it to the blank (drywall screws) while you work to hold it in place.
I tape (48mm agri tape) the pvc to the blank, then into the vac bag to finish it off at 0.3bar.
48gr glass under the pvc.
Laminate is 1x150gr double bias carbon with 48gr glass (laid on dry) on top.
48gr glass is well wetout after vac.
Builds a light, strong board and strong enough.
I believe that modern PVC is so good that many may be over building.
Finished weight 55gr/litre, painted and deck textured using this method.
Select to expand quoteTe Hau said..
"I should be able to bend the PVC over the corners given the simple shape"..
Airex bends way better than standard pvc and I thinks it's readily available in Eu.
Its more expensive and so I use it only for the areas needed (front 30cm rear 30cm usually) the remainder of the board I do in corecell. Screw it to the blank (drywall screws) while you work to hold it in place.
I tape (48mm agri tape) the pvc to the blank, then into the vac bag to finish it off at 0.3bar.
48gr glass under the pvc.
Laminate is 1x150gr double bias carbon with 48gr glass (laid on dry) on top.
48gr glass is well wetout after vac.
Builds a light, strong board and strong enough.
I believe that modern PVC is so good that many may be over building.
Finished weight 55gr/litre, painted and deck textured using this method.
Thank you soooo much for your advices, I really appreciate since I was just working out the lamination schedule. I was going much heavier that your schedule to be honest, but that is because of ignorance so going conservative; let me please ask you a few questions:
-the 48 gr glass layer underneath the PVC is to get better adhesion of the PVC to the EPS core?
-how you avoid EPS to aborb to much resin? do you seal it with resin+ microbaloons or wet the glass on a table before laying it on the EPS?
-I assume yo put some carbon reinforcements underneath PVC in the areas where local pressure may be applied (straps, UJ ecc...).
-The 48 gr/m2 glass layer on top of carbon is to protect from carbon brittleness? is that enough to avoid dents?
Thank you so much for any further advice you may give, well appreciated.
Cheers
Edoardo
Select to expand quotedimacced said..
Thank you soooo much for your advices, I really appreciate since I was just working out the lamination schedule. I was going much heavier that your schedule to be honest, but that is because of ignorance so going conservative; let me please ask you a few questions:
-the 48 gr glass layer underneath the PVC is to get better adhesion of the PVC to the EPS core?
-how you avoid EPS to aborb to much resin? do you seal it with resin+ microbaloons or wet the glass on a table before laying it on the EPS?
Wet out on a table. Yes, the glass helps with PVC adhesion and lessens the chances of delam. Also provides the other side of the structural I-beam that the PVC creates.Select to expand quote-The 48 gr/m2 glass layer on top of carbon is to protect from carbon brittleness? is that enough to avoid dents?
Also provides a sanding layer as you finish the board. It's enough to avoid dents in the non-hard use areas. Extra glass in the nose/rails and other wear areas would be good unless you are chasing low weight.
The Carbon Art Youtube videos on a board build are helpful. There are also ones by Nelson Factory.
Here's the sandwiching video of the series
Allow me to chip in for a second. Building boards is extremely hard. Trust me, I've had my fair share of troubles. There will be a lot of issues you'll need to fix.
Maybe you're super skilled or maybe I have a significant lack but my advice would be to take it slow and keep it simple. Sandwiching a board in itself isn't super hard but a lot can go wrong if you don't have any prior experience with working with epoxy, saturating fibers, thermo forming pvc, setting up a vac system, using a vac system, prepping the blank,. so there's a reasonable chance (unless you have experience) that something will go wrong. If something goes wrong, it usually takes a lot of time and effort to fix it and that's nog fun.
My advice would be to start simple: enjoy shaping your blank, fill holes with spackle, do your hull laminate (400-600gr of glassfiber), do your deck lam (400 to 1000 in critical areas such as tuttle, mastrail, nose and under footstraps) and take your time to fill, sand and finish. Maybe try vac bagging, it requires a bit of skill but will make your life easier.
Trust me, your board will be plenty strong. Stronger than most production boards. Stronger than a board with a poor sandwich.
most importantly, enjoy!! It's super fun to make a board and exciting to ride your own. Oh, and ignore all this if you feel confident making a board with a more complex construction.
Select to expand quoteNicoDC said..
Allow me to chip in for a second. Building boards is extremely hard. Trust me, I've had my fair share of troubles. There will be a lot of issues you'll need to fix.
Maybe you're super skilled or maybe I have a significant lack but my advice would be to take it slow and keep it simple. Sandwiching a board in itself isn't super hard but a lot can go wrong if you don't have any prior experience with working with epoxy, saturating fibers, thermo forming pvc, setting up a vac system, using a vac system, prepping the blank,. so there's a reasonable chance (unless you have experience) that something will go wrong. If something goes wrong, it usually takes a lot of time and effort to fix it and that's nog fun.
My advice would be to start simple: enjoy shaping your blank, fill holes with spackle, do your hull laminate (400-600gr of glassfiber), do your deck lam (400 to 1000 in critical areas such as tuttle, mastrail, nose and under footstraps) and take your time to fill, sand and finish. Maybe try vac bagging, it requires a bit of skill but will make your life easier.
Trust me, your board will be plenty strong. Stronger than most production boards. Stronger than a board with a poor sandwich.
most importantly, enjoy!! It's super fun to make a board and exciting to ride your own. Oh, and ignore all this if you feel confident making a board with a more complex construction.
Thanks Nico for your kind advices which I appreciate a lot. I have some experience with epoxy, I have converted an old hypersonic in a foil board and for that reshaped completely the rear part of the board making rocker line flat on the stern, inserting foil mast track and changin completely position for the straps and mast track. In doing so I built my own vacuum system, made some with my good portion of mistakes :-) in the end the board came out good and flies well. It is a little heavy though and couldn't change too much the shape so this new design is less constrained from a windsurf original design.
The portion I am missing the most is the shaping of the entire board. To be honest I also considered a simpler single skin construction, but part of the game for me is also to accumulate some experience with the construction so I will try the sandwich for the seak of learning something new. I have good hands and get out of any trouble I get into somehow so will see how it goes and keep updating progress which I will expect not to be fast...will take it easy and give time to reflect before making big mistakes.
Cheers
Select to expand quotecoolmove said..
First try to build a Windfoilboard
150 cm x 55 cm, 105 l
Just an everyday regular normal mother f##ker
Select to expand quoteswoosh said..
Cool looking build. Looks inspired by mb-boards? How thick is it?
Yes, MB Boards
16 cm
I would like to hear your feelings after you sail that board. Interesting thickness.
Select to expand quotecoolmove said..swoosh said..
Cool looking build. Looks inspired by mb-boards? How thick is it?
Yes, MB Boards
16 cm
Definitely more compact than my design, but if you ride the MB pegasus 108 you are for sure a better windfoiler than I am!
Is XPS that you used as core material?If so pay attention to heat, XPS is a material that tend to release gas when heated leading to delamination; gas release + difficult adhesion of resin to the surface may lead to problems. Definitely no caron look, white color finish is way better.
cheers
Select to expand quotecoolmove said..
Actually
Is that 3D core you used as a sandwich? If so, what was the resin uptake?
Select to expand quoteNicoDC said..
Is that 3D core you used as a sandwich? If so, what was the resin uptake?
Interesting..I am going to start the lamination on my first board soon as well,
Would you be so kind to share your lamination schedule? from pictures I understand you laminated with carbon (what gr/m2?) directly on XPS core (the pink), and then applied 5mm 3D core XPS (what gr/m2?), then carbon again (what gr/m2?), am I correct? you did so on both top and bottom? What about track mount, did you use 3D core as well for the mounting of the tracks, is that material sturdy enough for that purpose?
Thank you for any advice, it is my very first complete board so... any helkp is very well appreciated.
Ciao
Select to expand quotedimacced said..
Interesting..I am going to start the lamination on my first board soon as well,
Would you be so kind to share your lamination schedule? from pictures I understand you laminated with carbon (what gr/m2?) directly on XPS core (the pink), and then applied 5mm 3D core XPS (what gr/m2?), then carbon again (what gr/m2?), am I correct? you did so on both top and bottom? What about track mount, did you use 3D core as well for the mounting of the tracks, is that material sturdy enough for that purpose?
Thank you for any advice, it is my very first complete board so... any helkp is very well appreciated.
Ciao
Xps/200 g UD/160 g/3D core 5mm/200 g UD/245 g/200 g
all carbon
Much too heavy and bomb proof i think.
I don`t have any experience in building surfboards, first try,
but some experience with composites
Track mount and plugs i got from Mojo Boards
Hello Edoardo,
I'm sorry for late reply, I haven't been on the site for some time.
"-the 48 gr glass layer underneath the PVC is to get better adhesion of the PVC to the EPS core?
-how you avoid EPS to aborb to much resin? do you seal it with resin+ microbaloons or wet the glass on a table before laying it on the EPS?
-I assume yo put some carbon reinforcements underneath PVC in the areas where local pressure may be applied (straps, UJ ecc...).
-The 48 gr/m2 glass layer on top of carbon is to protect from carbon brittleness? is that enough to avoid dents?"
48gr glass is for improved adhesion as you suggested. It's to hold the resin and prevent it from soaking into the EPS.
I don't seal the EPS (too heavy. not necessary)
I wet the fabrics on a table.
I use a plastic squeegee which leaves more resin in the fabric.
If your wish is for a very light and dry wet out, then use a metal squeegee.
Yes, I use carbon patches at the feet/heels, fin box area
48gr on top of the CF is for protection and also as resin absorber for the CF layer.
I never do see dry spots in the 48gr layer but if I did, I would just wet them out after the vac bag stage.
If dents are a worry, go heavier (48gr is mighty light). I do see harness hook dents.
Regarding the bottom shape.
For my foil boards I have been keeping it simple (as you intend) and I use a 300mm wide central flat section from tail to nose with the remaining outboard sections vee'd at 1 degree.
Out on the rails I have a 6 degree rail bevel which is max 65mm wide (at1900mm) and it fades out to zero at 900mm from the tail.
This shape works well and is easy to do.
Shape it on the blank and then score the PVC at the bend lines (3mmPVC scored to 1.5mm) before you bond the PVC on.
With this shape my boards take off early, breach safely and land easily and I've only been over the front once.
Board #1 had no cut outs, #2 with cut outs, #3 again no cut outs.
You can see that I saw little benefit from the cutouts.
Tail width is around 570mm at 100mm. Max widths 760 #1, 810 #2, 770 #3
Good luck and happy building.
Select to expand quotecoolmove said..dimacced said..
Interesting..I am going to start the lamination on my first board soon as well,
Would you be so kind to share your lamination schedule? from pictures I understand you laminated with carbon (what gr/m2?) directly on XPS core (the pink), and then applied 5mm 3D core XPS (what gr/m2?), then carbon again (what gr/m2?), am I correct? you did so on both top and bottom? What about track mount, did you use 3D core as well for the mounting of the tracks, is that material sturdy enough for that purpose?
Thank you for any advice, it is my very first complete board so... any helkp is very well appreciated.
Ciao
Xps/200 g UD/160 g/3D core 5mm/200 g UD/245 g/200 g
all carbon
Much too heavy and bomb proof i think.
I don`t have any experience in building surfboards, first try,
but some experience with composites
Track mount and plugs i got from Mojo Boards
I see you have good hands and practice with composites, using vacum bagging as well, I think you are not to far from making a good board, you just need to find a good lamination schedule to follow. You may whant to try some of the suggested ones here in this therad posts, some of the guys have quite an experience in making boards.
Select to expand quoteTe Hau said..
Hello Edoardo,
I'm sorry for late reply, I haven't been on the site for some time.
"-the 48 gr glass layer underneath the PVC is to get better adhesion of the PVC to the EPS core?
-how you avoid EPS to aborb to much resin? do you seal it with resin+ microbaloons or wet the glass on a table before laying it on the EPS?
-I assume yo put some carbon reinforcements underneath PVC in the areas where local pressure may be applied (straps, UJ ecc...).
-The 48 gr/m2 glass layer on top of carbon is to protect from carbon brittleness? is that enough to avoid dents?"
48gr glass is for improved adhesion as you suggested. It's to hold the resin and prevent it from soaking into the EPS.
I don't seal the EPS (too heavy. not necessary)
I wet the fabrics on a table.
I use a plastic squeegee which leaves more resin in the fabric.
If your wish is for a very light and dry wet out, then use a metal squeegee.
Yes, I use carbon patches at the feet/heels, fin box area
48gr on top of the CF is for protection and also as resin absorber for the CF layer.
I never do see dry spots in the 48gr layer but if I did, I would just wet them out after the vac bag stage.
If dents are a worry, go heavier (48gr is mighty light). I do see harness hook dents.
Regarding the bottom shape.
For my foil boards I have been keeping it simple (as you intend) and I use a 300mm wide central flat section from tail to nose with the remaining outboard sections vee'd at 1 degree.
Out on the rails I have a 6 degree rail bevel which is max 65mm wide (at1900mm) and it fades out to zero at 900mm from the tail.
This shape works well and is easy to do.
Shape it on the blank and then score the PVC at the bend lines (3mmPVC scored to 1.5mm) before you bond the PVC on.
With this shape my boards take off early, breach safely and land easily and I've only been over the front once.
Board #1 had no cut outs, #2 with cut outs, #3 again no cut outs.
You can see that I saw little benefit from the cutouts.
Tail width is around 570mm at 100mm. Max widths 760 #1, 810 #2, 770 #3
Good luck and happy building.
Thank you...very helpfull!
Since I didn't find a source for EPS plank, I am now in the phase of glueing together sheets of EPS insulation panels, 20 kg/m3 to get the plank I need. Unfotunately the glue (PU G4) adds some weight to the core, but that is. Going to shape it these days, I will post some pictures of the work in progress.
