Select to expand quotebel29 said..
same sail size, same lines (as far as I can tell)
Three year old shot, and notice that the boom is right at the top of the cutout. I have no dog in the fight, and no claim to authority of my own. I admire guys with the bottle to go out in strong wind with short lines (I don't) and I admire guys who go out in 25kt on IQ 9.0 rigs (they all seem to us the same very adjustable lines, and to adjust them often.
I do know how Andy teaches this stuff, because I pay him a pretty penny to teach me every winter when he makes his Florida swing. He legit likes the lines right near the end of the bend in the boom, and except when it's just overpowering, he runs his booms high.
On the day he was working with Aerongnr I was on the water about six miles away, and hung on to a 4.2 for three hours, just barely. I'm not at all surprised Andy rigged down.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Is that Jason teaching a wingsupper?
Haven't been to Sherman in 3 years now.
yes I love how he backwinds to stop himself
here is a pic. of my short line, by having tube inside of cleat it makes it easy to use a rear hand thumb flip to get line out of hook when it does not want to swing out, a Guy Cribb tip (the thumb flip).
Spent an hour on 4.2, foiling in 12-22 mph wind with lines out at close to 30".
Had to raise the boom about 3" from my normal height. So...6" line longer...boom raised 3", makes it about very similar.
Although now with higher boom, waterstarts need stronger gusts, and while such wind did not need much pumping, pumping suffered with higher boom because it was only needed in the lightest lulls.
Advantages? Seemed easier to uphaul, not that a 4.2 us hard to uphaul.
Disadvantage? I accidentally hooked in 7 times until I raised the boom.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
here is a pic. of my short line, by having tube inside of cleat it makes it easy to use a rear hand thumb flip to get line out of hook when it does not want to swing out, a Guy Cribb tip (the thumb flip).
Can you upload a vid - I'm curious what your stance looks like with those lines and the conditions you foil in 
Stance the same between 24 or 30" lines.
Boom goes up 3" with the long lines.
Without raising the boom, 30" lines have me sticking my butt out and down, needing g MORE wind to go upwind.
Select to expand quoteazymuth said..Sandman1221 said..
here is a pic. of my short line, by having tube inside of cleat it makes it easy to use a rear hand thumb flip to get line out of hook when it does not want to swing out, a Guy Cribb tip (the thumb flip).
Can you upload a vid - I'm curious what your stance looks like with those lines and the conditions you foil in
Unfortunately no vid. at this time, basically a more upright 7 stance with bent elbows, when gust hits just lean out bringing sail with me, of course. It feels like you are on the edge of crashing/ getting pulled over at first, but once you stay committed to being hooked in you realize it works and arms do not get used that much during the run. I have not crashed yet with lines that short due to a gust "this year". But when on the water slogging and hooked in you really have to watch for waves, so easy to loose balance and get pulled over by sail, if wind drops too much in lulls I unhook when on the water since there is so little pressure on sail then I do not workout arms much.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..azymuth said..Sandman1221 said..
here is a pic. of my short line, by having tube inside of cleat it makes it easy to use a rear hand thumb flip to get line out of hook when it does not want to swing out, a Guy Cribb tip (the thumb flip).
Can you upload a vid - I'm curious what your stance looks like with those lines and the conditions you foil in
Unfortunately no vid. at this time, basically a more upright 7 stance with bent elbows, when gust hits just lean out bringing sail with me, of course. It feels like you are on the edge of crashing/ getting pulled over at first, but once you stay committed to being hooked in you realize it works and arms do not get used that much during the run. I have not crashed yet with lines that short due to a gust "this year". But when on the water slogging and hooked in you really have to watch for waves, so easy to loose balance and get pulled over by sail, if wind drops too much in lulls I unhook when on the water since there is so little pressure on sail then I do not workout arms much.
The "Bent Elbows" is the main difference between "your" stance & There stance. With longer lines you need to straighten your arms much more. The pressure on your arms does not change. The stance is just different.... It's really down to boom height, mast postition & how bent or straight your arms are.
Select to expand quotegorgesailor said..Sandman1221 said..azymuth said..Sandman1221 said..
here is a pic. of my short line, by having tube inside of cleat it makes it easy to use a rear hand thumb flip to get line out of hook when it does not want to swing out, a Guy Cribb tip (the thumb flip).
Can you upload a vid - I'm curious what your stance looks like with those lines and the conditions you foil in
Unfortunately no vid. at this time, basically a more upright 7 stance with bent elbows, when gust hits just lean out bringing sail with me, of course. It feels like you are on the edge of crashing/ getting pulled over at first, but once you stay committed to being hooked in you realize it works and arms do not get used that much during the run. I have not crashed yet with lines that short due to a gust "this year". But when on the water slogging and hooked in you really have to watch for waves, so easy to loose balance and get pulled over by sail, if wind drops too much in lulls I unhook when on the water since there is so little pressure on sail then I do not workout arms much.
The "Bent Elbows" is the main difference between "your" stance & There stance. With longer lines you need to straighten your arms much more. The pressure on your arms does not change. The stance is just different.... It's really down to boom height, mast postition & how bent or straight your arms are.
With longer lines and same boom height I need to lean further out to keep sail pressure in hook, but the sail pressure can not support me when I am leaned out with longer lines!, so then my arms while straighter will have to hold the sail pressure, and I want to avoid that because my arms get sore after a couple of hours, and are sore the next couple of days too.
"Ideal" stance is NOT straight arms.
Instead, a little bend in each is needed for feel and shock absorption.
And remember, hooking in for us is only for going upwind.
Since foil is not great for reaching, we can unhook and "float" around like wingers.
And downwind swell riding is unhooked.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Since foil is not great for reaching....
Um... care to explain?
btw, recently had to use a boom with short 24" lines in way gusty conditions 14 to almost 30 (reminder that I'm qualified to shop for clothes in the youth dept) and it sucked. Wish I had my adjustables on the boom out at 26-27. Like playing tug of war with a goat.
Which reminds me to go and chuck longer lines into the van so I don't have to endure that inanity again. 
Think this through?
When you're stuck with too short lines, maybe LOWER your boom? This allows lighter wind water starts and bigger pumps...with small sails.
Also, move mast to freeride windsurf position, maybe 22" away from center of front straps.
Freestyle position is around 17".
Slalom position around 24".
Formula position around 26", which seems to apply to course race foil.
Or are you STUCK using a freestyle mast base position?
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Think this through?
When you're stuck with too short lines, maybe LOWER your boom? This allows lighter wind water starts and bigger pumps...with small sails.
Also, move mast to freeride windsurf position, maybe 22" away from center of front straps.
Freestyle position is around 17".
Slalom position around 24".
Formula position around 26", which seems to apply to course race foil.
Or are you STUCK using a freestyle mast base position?
Lowering the boom then puts additional pressure on the mast base which would have upset foil trim. I wasn't going to move ** as I was flying fine, having a good time and only spending time on the water when I botched a jibe in a hard lull. I tune my mast base position to the cm so rough guidelines like 17, 24, 26 inches don't really work. Besides, a lot of us are measuring from the front screw to the mast base. Our front straps are set up so we fly through jibes flat and then tuning the mast base based on how much rig pressure we want/need. fwiw, I actually run my 8.0 as far back as I run my 4.7 (on different boards and foils, of course).
What was happening is just like so many others besides myself said: short lines inhibit the ability to stay hooked in and deal with hard gusts by making it more difficult to have some space between yourself and the sail.
Have you ever considered moving your mast base forward?
That allows for shorter lines upwind.
The fact you are unwilling to change just shows your adaptability.
I stated I tried 30" lines...worked fine with 3" higher boom. Without raising the boom, the lines were below my harness hook when slogging, then my butt stuck way out and down when hooked.
So I CHANGED something, and 30" lines are fine...with higher boom.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Have you ever considered moving your mast base forward?
That allows for shorter lines upwind.
The fact you are unwilling to change just shows your adaptability.
I stated I tried 30" lines...worked fine with 3" higher boom. Without raising the boom, the lines were below my harness hook when slogging, then my butt stuck way out and down when hooked.
So I CHANGED something, and 30" lines are fine...with higher boom.
No. Why should I make it nose heavy? I had a set up that allowed me to foil in 12 to gusts almost 30 with a 4.7, go upwind with a keel boat, play on the swell off wind and foil jibe all day long. I arrived at that set up by tuning the crap out of my gear for over four years. The only thing that I would have changed yesterday is to have longer lines. I will CHANGE something. I will put LONGER LINES on that boom.
Believe it or not, some of us may be better at this than you think we are.
You never explained your comment about foils not reaching well. If there's information you want to impart on that, I'm all ears.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
SLOW. Not good.
Again, your assumption not based on current evidence.
@15:45
Select to expand quotePaducah said..LeeD said..
SLOW. Not good.
Again, your assumption not based on current evidence.
@15:45
Also some recent onboard footage of Rytis. He shortens his lines in flight at about 1:40 but we're talking around 40in or so to what 36in? I'm guessing. Hard to tell with the lens distortion but his arms are quite extended.
Last time I went out I was on 105+ fuse and 900 front wing with 9.0, was marginal and I had my mast base too far forward so I was very back footed. Couldn't stand having a harness shorter than like 30in when flying. Still experimenting because I haven't found the sweet spot yet.
Idiots think that because Allen Iverson can make 60 million dollars playing basketball...they can too.
Pro slalom has nothing to do with local rec foiling.
You only need to LOOK at the local crowd to know reaching speeds are low-slow on foil.
Pro bike racers easily ride 100 miles a day, at speed, for 5 out of 7 days.
You try it. You will DIE!
JMHO. Emphasis on Opinion. There is no proper correct set harness line length for a given height and arm length. Just too many variables and type of windsurfing. For me it's compromise (using fixed lines on the fin boards) to get the most control and comfort for the type of windsurfing. Bit like footstraps. Positioning on the board, shape/size are different on the wave vs. freeride vs. foil boards. Lines are slightly different length for wave, freeride, foil boards. Definitely need adjustable on the foil board. 15cm range is working, I think.
Side note. Recent Windsurfing TV interview with a speed sailor. The man is big by any standards. Tall and massive. Was surprised at the line length he prefers and boom height for speed sailing. His explanation made sense. Lines were relatively short and boom height relatively on the low end of low.
Harness and boom and base oh my...Harness and boom and base oh my...Harness and boom and base oh my...
Oh wait, Dorothy, don't forget the footstraps and dual tracks.
Harness and boom and base and footstraps and tracks oh my...Harness and boom and base and footstraps and tracks oh my...Harness and boom and base and footstraps and tracks oh my...
Nah, doesn't rhyme quiet as well.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
here is a pic. of my short line, by having tube inside of cleat it makes it easy to use a rear hand thumb flip to get line out of hook when it does not want to swing out, a Guy Cribb tip (the thumb flip).
Okay, below is the same line adjusted by Andy Brandt for me in relatively light wind, note boom was ~3\4" higher on the below setup versus the above. But what you cannot see is how different my arm position was with Andy's setup and instruction, they were far apart and pretty straight. Andy's line was a little harder to hook into and to unhook from then my above 9" line.
So length from hook to boom was very close to the same, but Andy's line ends were farther apart and centered a lot more forward on the boom (mine were centered about 5-6" further back close to where you see the blue dart on the bottom pic.). I was cutting upwind farther than I thought possible with the AFS F1080 wing, and with so much speed foiled out, landed it, and kept on going several times!
Been foil and windsurfing with 28" lines past week.
Conclusion....with longer lines, you can hold a bigger sail in comfort. But you always need a bigger sail. And raised boom makes waterstart harder.
Going back to 24" lines.
Sorry to all the new school riders who advocate long lines.
I am old school, my mast base located 22" from center of front strap. I ride singles and tris, not quads.
Slalom, mast base gets pushed forward another 2".
Wave, in chop, 20".
In actual surf, 18".
All with 24" lines.
Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Sorry to all the new school riders who advocate long lines.
I am old school, my mast base located 22" from center of front strap. I ride singles and tris, not quads.
Slalom, mast base gets pushed forward another 2".
Wave, in chop, 20".
In actual surf, 18".
All with 24" lines.
Since you are old school I am guessing you are still using tie-on booms, right?
I got my first clamp on booms in 1985.
Had no problem with 2 years of tie on, thought it was lighter and less to break. I had surfsailed most spots in NorCal and Baja by then.
I used the clamp on for it's easy height adjustment while slogging. Then by '87, every company had a clamp on.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Idiots ....
What a way to win friends - I'd like to see what you do to your enemies.
