JP / NP Board & Foil

Have finally bitten the bullet and upgraded from my Gong foil to a NP Glide large . Looking forward to giving it a go.

For those of you who didn't see the NP foil on my board in my review post. I've put it on here also.
I felt comfortable riding it with a 5mm wedge between foil mount & board. But Piros the more experienced foil boarder says it is not needed.
So I will experiment further in future rides to hopefully use a thinner wedge or none at all.

Have definitely found the sweet spot for all foils on the 7' is fully forward in the tracks, however paddling hard to accelerate and catch the wave, then there's a tendency to bury the nose as you paddle and lean forward.
I really feel that a wedge is the way to go then allowing the foil to be further back in the tracks.

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DWF said..
You've discovered an industry wide problem. Huge wings mated to masts not stiff enough. It's something that shows up big time with SUP, but not prone, so many are not aware of how bad the issue is.

Is it only an issue with people foiling strapless on a SUP with feet close to the rail?

With straps, I did not experience this problem, but looking at videos, it seemed that some strapless SUPers have their feet very far from the center line, and thus are exerting a lot of torque on the board, and I seemed to notice the mast flexing, which does not seem to happen with people with their feet on the center line (or close to it).

Surf foilers have narrower boards and so have not this problem.

I recall also asking the Gong shaper to put the front strap inserts more towards the rails, as it is definitively easier to paddle a SUP board this way, and he relied me that he did not want it as it made the mast flex, so it tends to confirm this hypothesis.

So, this actually may not be a problem if you have your feet close to the center line.

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Camarillo said..
This has nothing to do with wrong foot placement!

Of course it has, that's basic mechanics. Archimedes, etc...

This is the same as beginner that paddle their SUP with their feet far apart: every movement make the board tilt more, as their leverage is greater. And that's why bigger (wider) wings make a foil mast flex more.

That's why windsurfing foils must have much stronger masts, as the feet of the rider are way out on the rail. And also much stronger boxes, as the wing is farther from the mast and is exerting a stronger torque tending to rotate the mast forwards.

I was before in the full carbon Gong mast, which is quite stiff. I could tell instantly when screws get somewhat loose, or when something (mast, tuttle heel, fuz, board) developed cracks. But I saw no difference with the alu mast. (and the L wing. The XXL may be another story)

So, this is why I am asking the question: has anybody using a centered feet position had this issue? I suspect not. But I am asking.

Just like some people demand pads with raised edges: it is because they paddle with their feet on the rail. If you have a proper paddling position, you will not need this (and their drawbacks) on your pads.

I don't know what you mean by a centered foot position but I paddle around in a narrow surf stance all the time and when I paddle for a wave a go to a bit wider surf stance and off course when I get up on the foil I have my feet on the center line of the board , I learned in my first 3 sessions that my feet should stay there.

Toppleover the NP wings have a really thick layer of carbon on the leading edge , so just key it in with a grinder very carefully or file or sand paper and put a layer or 2 of glass or carbon over it . Put some peel ply over it , let it go off and just sand and wet and dry. Bunnings have a spray enamel cans pretty close to the colour.

Re wobbling mast Colas that's the biggest load of rubbish what you said re foot position and mast wobble . Here's a quick test to see how stiff a mast is . Simply stand on the board in flat calm water with your feet across the board ( square paddle stance ) and rock it rapidly side to side . If you do that with an NP or Axis there is virtually no movement BUT do it with a softer brand mast and you feel it flex and swing side to side like a pendulum. If a mast flexes doing this it will flex the same in the surf regardless of where you put your feet . If you also have a poor connection on the front wing to the fuselage you will feel that wobble as well . It's a simple test that gives Black and White results.

A wobbling mast or front wing not only throws out your balance on the waves but also tears your legs up paddling around constantly correcting against the flexing and makes it harder to get into surf stance paddling for a wave and lowering your wave count. There is 0% advantage in having excessive mast flex or wobble.

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Piros said..
If a mast flexes doing this it will flex the same in the surf regardless of where you put your feet

No, and that's basic physics. That's why you must move your feet around more to put a "stiff" (wide) surfboard or SUP on the rail.

I am NOT saying that a flexing mast is good. I said that I could feel immediately, like Seajuice, when something got loose.

Just because somebody tells you "Man, this SUP is totally unstable" does not mean that it will be unstable for you, if he has his feet on the rails but you have your feet closer to the stringer. I was thus asking questions to understand better why this was felt by SUP foilers and not Surf foilers, granted that the distance of the feet from the stringer is often one of the main difference between the two practices.

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colas said..
Seems nice, but I would be wary of the fittings: All the torque on the wings are directly leveraging against the bolts threads, which are the only thing keeping the wings in place. This is not very durable, compared to systems where the bolts are not directly resisting the huge forces of the foil: remove the screws from a Go Foil for instance, and the wings stay tight by themselves, the strength is given by the way the fuz locks into the wing part, the bolts just keep them in place. Seems like a 1st generation design, I guess they will have to change it in the next version.

This seems like an appropriate moment to recall that time colas warned us about the rigidity of the NP design

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Camarillo said..
The main difference between surf foilers and sup foilers belief it or not is that the first are prone on their board and the second are standing up when not flying and lying down an unstable setup doesn't matter...

No not the case , I've just come back from Fiji and I had both my Sup set up with std JP rig and my prone with the proto JP carbon mast which was quiet flexy. ( new one just released extra layer of carbon) Both were fully rigged in the boat so as conditions changed I'd swap over eg: when tide got to low to paddle on prone I would swap to the Sup or I simply got too tired from the long paddle backs on the prone. Being able to do this you get to notice instantly the difference of mast flex and yes as Camarillo said you don't notice it paddling on the prone but you do notice it straight away on the first turn when you load the mast or initiate the first pump.

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Piros said..

Camarillo said..
The main difference between surf foilers and sup foilers belief it or not is that the first are prone on their board and the second are standing up when not flying and lying down an unstable setup doesn't matter...

No not the case , I've just come back from Fiji and I had both my Sup set up with std JP rig and my prone with the proto JP carbon mast which was quiet flexy. ( new one just released extra layer of carbon) Both were fully rigged in the boat so as conditions changed I'd swap over eg: when tide got to low to paddle on prone I would swap to the Sup or I simply got too tired from the long paddle backs on the prone. Being able to do this you get to notice instantly the difference of mast flex and yes as Camarillo said you don't notice it paddling on the prone but you do notice it straight away on the first turn when you load the mast or initiate the first pump.

Off course the stiffness of the foil is also very important when flying but being a beginner I do not fly 95 % of my TOW
And with a soft foil my sessions are much shorter and I miss more waves due to foil wobble

I really hope NP will make the new carbon mast/plate at least as stiff as the alu combi

And why not make a cabon mast/plate/fuse ala Gofoil?

And please don't make us wait too long for the XL wing!

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Fishdude said..
I know a lighter swing weight of the board (or maybe even wings/fuselage) can help performance.
But would a mast of less weight have any performance benefit if it is has the same flex/strength?

It all adds up

Gee I think my new JP foilboard & NP foil is just about half the weight of my older 7ft custom board & China knock off foil. So happy enough with the weight already.
Just another thing. Wouldn't a heavier foil aid stability more so than a light one in choppy water? If so. Then one would be able to use even smaller boards. After all the foil has no weight when up & flying.
So why bother going lighter other than easier portability for a long walk to beach & back like Piros has said.
I did it with a heavy board & foil. Totally exhausting after a good session of foiling. Haaa!

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Seajuice said..
For those of you who didn't see the NP foil on my board in my review post. I've put it on here also.
I felt comfortable riding it with a 5mm wedge between foil mount & board. But Piros the more experienced foil boarder says it is not needed.
So I will experiment further in future rides to hopefully use a thinner wedge or none at all.

I have observed these in shops and the mast is very wide.
Can you or anyone advise the benefits - is it only for added stiffness or more?