I dont think sturdiness is anything to do with the nationality of the builder. Rather it relates more to the market they sell into. The Scandinavians have some sheltered waters and some pretty rough waters. They make boats to suit each of those environments. Similarly for the Franch and Germans. The big market for them is the Med and charter boats. For that you need internal volume, and heavy strong build is a disadvantage.
So the answer is instead of looking at the nationality of the build, look at what duty the design and construction was intended to fulfill.
Select to expand quoteYara said..
I dont think sturdiness is anything to do with the nationality of the builder. Rather it relates more to the market they sell into. ...
Good points.
So you would buy a Cuba developed and built boat over a boat that has been built in the United Kingdom?
I doubt that and the very reason is that you know you would getting a better built boat using better materials by btter trained workers to better standards.
Nationality has nothing to do with anything here (hordes of Turkish and Mexican workers build cars in Germany and USA) , but country of origin does. Certain things are better built in certain countries than others. Industrial rivalry has been around for some time and stilll exists. The label Made in ..... does not just show where the product comes from but also radiates a certain confidence in a product.
But this thread is asking for an opinion and not actually trying to prove which nation is truly better.
Select to expand quoteSeebreasy73 said..
So you would buy a Cuba developed and built boat over a boat that has been built in the United Kingdom?
I doubt that and the very reason is that you know you would getting a better built boat using better materials by btter trained workers to better standards.
Nationality has nothing to do with anything here (hordes of Turkish and Mexican workers build cars in Germany and USA) , but country of origin does. Certain things are better built in certain countries than others. Industrial rivalry has been around for some time and stilll exists. The label Made in ..... does not just show where the product comes from but also radiates a certain confidence in a product.
But this thread is asking for an opinion and not actually trying to prove which nation is truly better.
Not forgetting of course that you now can't buy an Australian or British built production boat.
And stop belittling others opinions when they differ from your own, some are worthy of greater consideration than yours.
Australia still does ok building yachts ..... Buizen ! top class ........ Northshore great yachts
Select to expand quoteSandS said..
Australia still does ok building yachts ..... Buizen ! top class ........ Northshore great yachts
Is Northshore still in business? I thought they had gone into liquidation. Buizen top class but definitely not a production vessel, would put them in the custom build category.
My guess, it's all about design, quality manufacturing and personal preference .
Absolutly irrelevant where is manufactured / assembled.
/ iPhone X comes from China soon from India, Hyundai i20 , 30 Eastern Czech, most expensive PLC Rockwell
comes from Mexico / China. itc./
Select to expand quoteCharriot said..
My guess, it's all about design, quality manufacturing and personal preference .
Absolutly irrelevant where is manufactured / assembled.
/ iPhone X comes from China soon from India, Hyundai i20 , 30 Eastern Czech, most expensive PLC Rockwell
comes from Mexico / China. itc./
that is different, if a Western company moves production because of cheaper labour to a different country. Still Western engineering, materials and quality control. I was talking about let say Chinese, Cuban, Indian etc. home brands. But let us agree to disagree on this
Select to expand quoteSeebreasy73 said..Charriot said..
My guess, it's all about design, quality manufacturing and personal preference .
Absolutly irrelevant where is manufactured / assembled.
/ iPhone X comes from China soon from India, Hyundai i20 , 30 Eastern Czech, most expensive PLC Rockwell
comes from Mexico / China. itc./
that is different, if a Western company moves production because of cheaper labour to a different country. Still Western engineering, materials and quality control. I was talking about let say Chinese, Cuban, Indian etc. home brands. But let us agree to disagree on this
That might be a slightly xenophobic view of Chinese and Indian manufacturing. I suspect that for each and every Australian citizen there is a wealthier Chinese or Indian counterpart. For every Australian doctor or engineer there is a more skilled Chinese or Indian counterpart, trouble is that many of the Indian engineers are living in Australia driving taxis or working in 7 eleven stores because we no longer have a viable and vibrant manufacturing industry.
Select to expand quotefrant said..Seebreasy73 said..Charriot said..
My guess, it's all about design, quality manufacturing and personal preference .
Absolutly irrelevant where is manufactured / assembled.
/ iPhone X comes from China soon from India, Hyundai i20 , 30 Eastern Czech, most expensive PLC Rockwell
comes from Mexico / China. itc./
that is different, if a Western company moves production because of cheaper labour to a different country. Still Western engineering, materials and quality control. I was talking about let say Chinese, Cuban, Indian etc. home brands. But let us agree to disagree on this
That might be a slightly xenophobic view of Chinese and Indian manufacturing. I suspect that for each and every Australian citizen there is a wealthier Chinese or Indian counterpart. For every Australian doctor or engineer there is a more skilled Chinese or Indian counterpart, trouble is that many of the Indian engineers are living in Australia driving taxis or working in 7 eleven stores because we no longer have a viable and vibrant manufacturing industry.
+1
Select to expand quotefrant said..Seebreasy73 said..Charriot said..
My guess, it's all about design, quality manufacturing and personal preference .
Absolutly irrelevant where is manufactured / assembled.
/ iPhone X comes from China soon from India, Hyundai i20 , 30 Eastern Czech, most expensive PLC Rockwell
comes from Mexico / China. itc./
that is different, if a Western company moves production because of cheaper labour to a different country. Still Western engineering, materials and quality control. I was talking about let say Chinese, Cuban, Indian etc. home brands. But let us agree to disagree on this
That might be a slightly xenophobic view of Chinese and Indian manufacturing. I suspect that for each and every Australian citizen there is a wealthier Chinese or Indian counterpart. For every Australian doctor or engineer there is a more skilled Chinese or Indian counterpart, trouble is that many of the Indian engineers are living in Australia driving taxis or working in 7 eleven stores because we no longer have a viable and vibrant manufacturing industry.
not saying they are not capable but when you have to massproduce cheaply you will lack quality. The other factor is the mentality that surrounds it. Happen to have first hand knowledge of manufacturing in both countries and again let us agree to disagree.
And as for Australia, indian expert boat builders driving cars because our industry is shambles? It is like saying that the space experts from Buthan are driving taxis in the USA because SpaceX put some departments of NASA out of business.
Select to expand quoteSeebreasy73 said..
but when you have to mass produce cheaply you will lack quality.
Actually mass production breeds quality....after 30 yrs experience in high volume manufacturing, the best quality comes from some of the highest speed lines ( but XXX expensive). A mistake at a high volume production is expensive as it does not affect just one item in production, it affects all the items in production, and maybe those already with the consumer.
I remember back in the 80's the Ford Sydney Pagewood factory, started assembling the Mazda 323 rebadged as the Ford Laser. The workers complained when they where shown how they would assemble the car, that there was just single screw holes etc for the panels etc - how were the going to make adjustments to panel fit if they did not have screw slots as they were used too? It was explained to them by the Japanese, not to worry it will fit....no adjustment needed.
Select to expand quoteAgent nods said..Seebreasy73 said..
but when you have to mass produce cheaply you will lack quality.
Actually mass production breeds quality....after 30 yrs experience in high volume manufacturing, the best quality comes from some of the highest speed lines ( but XXX expensive). A mistake at a high volume production is expensive as it does not affect just one item in production, it affects all the items in production, and maybe those already with the consumer.
I remember back in the 80's the Ford Sydney Pagewood factory, started assembling the Mazda 323 rebadged as the Ford Laser. The workers complained when they where shown how they would assemble the car, that there was just single screw holes etc for the panels etc - how were the going to make adjustments to panel fit if they did not have screw slots as they were used too? It was explained to them by the Japanese, not to worry it will fit....no adjustment needed.
yes, in a free, market controlled society, where you compete with your product. In a country with a communist or socialist orientation like Russia (or in the past Soviet Union - still the same crap today after different title) and China, massproduction was set rather on the "let's make more so if one breaks there is an other" rather than "let's make the best". Centuries ago when I was an apprentice in a machine shop my master & mentor told me that, it is important to carefully measure and tool, because the machine will not make a mistake, but I will.
Majority of the boats are made by human hands ()even today), so the quality of the vessels will depend greatly on the skills and experience of the labour force.
So, how would you rank?
By individual or entity still, sorry mate.
One yard takes in apprentices, puts enormous effort in training their staff and start seeing a return in 5yrs. The average duration of employment is over 10 years.
Another yard down the road hires anyone, gives 'em to a leading hand and says meet the deadline. Their average duration of employment is two years.
One has has impeccable quality , the other is known for creaking and groaning in a 1mtr swell.
Nationality isnt a yardstick anymore.
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
By individual or entity still, sorry mate.
One yard takes in apprentices, puts enormous effort in training their staff and start seeing a return in 5yrs. The average duration of employment is over 10 years.
Another yard down the road hires anyone, gives 'em to a leading hand and says meet the deadline. Their average duration of employment is two years.
One has has impeccable quality , the other is known for creaking and groaning in a 1mtr swell.
Nationality isnt a yardstick anymore.
Eloquently put thanks.
Select to expand quoteSeebreasy73 said..Agent nods said..Seebreasy73 said..
but when you have to mass produce cheaply you will lack quality.
Actually mass production breeds quality....after 30 yrs experience in high volume manufacturing, the best quality comes from some of the highest speed lines ( but XXX expensive). A mistake at a high volume production is expensive as it does not affect just one item in production, it affects all the items in production, and maybe those already with the consumer.
I remember back in the 80's the Ford Sydney Pagewood factory, started assembling the Mazda 323 rebadged as the Ford Laser. The workers complained when they where shown how they would assemble the car, that there was just single screw holes etc for the panels etc - how were the going to make adjustments to panel fit if they did not have screw slots as they were used too? It was explained to them by the Japanese, not to worry it will fit....no adjustment needed.
yes, in a free, market controlled society, where you compete with your product. In a country with a communist or socialist orientation like Russia (or in the past Soviet Union - still the same crap today after different title) and China, massproduction was set rather on the "let's make more so if one breaks there is an other" rather than "let's make the best". Centuries ago when I was an apprentice in a machine shop my master & mentor told me that, it is important to carefully measure and tool, because the machine will not make a mistake, but I will.
Majority of the boats are made by human hands ()even today), so the quality of the vessels will depend greatly on the skills and experience of the labour force.
So, how would you rank?
Seabreasy
In my experience, Russian and Chinese manufacturing philosophies are worlds apart!
My ex was born and raised in Bulgaria. Each time he goes back to see his parents (he's over there now with our youngest child), he sees their prehistoric little Russian car still going strong and home appliances from his childhood (Communist era) continuing to be used.
In my experience, Russian made goods are built to last and are strong like the proverbial brick s....house!
Still curious to know more about your choice of boat...and why you chose it? Personally, in my opinion (and, just like a certain part of one's anatomy, everyone has one), this would be far more personal, insightful and helpful than what nationality builds the better yacht.
Select to expand quotetheselkie said..Seebreasy73 said..Agent nods said..Seebreasy73 said..
but when you have to mass produce cheaply you will lack quality.
Actually mass production breeds quality....after 30 yrs experience in high volume manufacturing, the best quality comes from some of the highest speed lines ( but XXX expensive). A mistake at a high volume production is expensive as it does not affect just one item in production, it affects all the items in production, and maybe those already with the consumer.
I remember back in the 80's the Ford Sydney Pagewood factory, started assembling the Mazda 323 rebadged as the Ford Laser. The workers complained when they where shown how they would assemble the car, that there was just single screw holes etc for the panels etc - how were the going to make adjustments to panel fit if they did not have screw slots as they were used too? It was explained to them by the Japanese, not to worry it will fit....no adjustment needed.
yes, in a free, market controlled society, where you compete with your product. In a country with a communist or socialist orientation like Russia (or in the past Soviet Union - still the same crap today after different title) and China, massproduction was set rather on the "let's make more so if one breaks there is an other" rather than "let's make the best". Centuries ago when I was an apprentice in a machine shop my master & mentor told me that, it is important to carefully measure and tool, because the machine will not make a mistake, but I will.
Majority of the boats are made by human hands ()even today), so the quality of the vessels will depend greatly on the skills and experience of the labour force.
So, how would you rank?
Seabreasy
In my experience, Russian and Chinese manufacturing philosophies are worlds apart!
My ex was born and raised in Bulgaria. Each time he goes back to see his parents (he's over there now with our youngest child), he sees their prehistoric little Russian car still going strong and home appliances from his childhood (Communist era) continuing to be used.
In my experience, Russian made goods are built to last and are strong like the proverbial brick s....house!
Still curious to know more about your choice of boat...and why you chose it? Personally, in my opinion (and, just like a certain part of one's anatomy, everyone has one), this would be far more personal, insightful and helpful than what nationality builds the better yacht.
Another good insight would be someone's credentials rather than just someone's trolling opinion.
Select to expand quotetwodogs1969 said..theselkie said..Seebreasy73 said..Agent nods said..Seebreasy73 said..
but when you have to mass produce cheaply you will lack quality.
Actually mass production breeds quality....after 30 yrs experience in high volume manufacturing, the best quality comes from some of the highest speed lines ( but XXX expensive). A mistake at a high volume production is expensive as it does not affect just one item in production, it affects all the items in production, and maybe those already with the consumer.
I remember back in the 80's the Ford Sydney Pagewood factory, started assembling the Mazda 323 rebadged as the Ford Laser. The workers complained when they where shown how they would assemble the car, that there was just single screw holes etc for the panels etc - how were the going to make adjustments to panel fit if they did not have screw slots as they were used too? It was explained to them by the Japanese, not to worry it will fit....no adjustment needed.
yes, in a free, market controlled society, where you compete with your product. In a country with a communist or socialist orientation like Russia (or in the past Soviet Union - still the same crap today after different title) and China, massproduction was set rather on the "let's make more so if one breaks there is an other" rather than "let's make the best". Centuries ago when I was an apprentice in a machine shop my master & mentor told me that, it is important to carefully measure and tool, because the machine will not make a mistake, but I will.
Majority of the boats are made by human hands ()even today), so the quality of the vessels will depend greatly on the skills and experience of the labour force.
So, how would you rank?
Seabreasy
In my experience, Russian and Chinese manufacturing philosophies are worlds apart!
My ex was born and raised in Bulgaria. Each time he goes back to see his parents (he's over there now with our youngest child), he sees their prehistoric little Russian car still going strong and home appliances from his childhood (Communist era) continuing to be used.
In my experience, Russian made goods are built to last and are strong like the proverbial brick s....house!
Still curious to know more about your choice of boat...and why you chose it? Personally, in my opinion (and, just like a certain part of one's anatomy, everyone has one), this would be far more personal, insightful and helpful than what nationality builds the better yacht.
Another good insight would be someone's credentials rather than just someone's trolling opinion.
Come on Two Dogs, at least the frequent trolling helps keep us amused.
Select to expand quoteUncleBob said..
Come on Two Dogs, at least the frequent trolling helps keep us amused.
Select to expand quoteUncleBob said..
Come on Two Dogs, at least the frequent trolling helps keep us amused.
If I may paraphrase a certain elderly now deceased Queen, We are not amused.
Select to expand quoteLooseChange said..UncleBob said..
Come on Two Dogs, at least the frequent trolling helps keep us amused.
If I may paraphrase a certain elderly now deceased Queen, We are not amused.
And to what are we not amused pray tell, the frequent trolling or, heaven forbid, the attached comment?
Select to expand quoteUncleBob said..LooseChange said..UncleBob said..
Come on Two Dogs, at least the frequent trolling helps keep us amused.
If I may paraphrase a certain elderly now deceased Queen, We are not amused.
And to what are we not amused pray tell, the frequent trolling or, heaven forbid, the attached comment?
The attached comment I can find no fault with, I thought it concise and succinct 
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
Does anyone know how McConaghey's are doing? The split was awful to see, and I lost track of them after that.
The Moth class AGM minutes note that they aren't selling any Moths any more. They bought class numbering plaques, assuming they'd make more, but faster Moths have arrived and the cost of being competitive ($40,000++) is preventing significant growth.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..shaggybaxter said..
Does anyone know how McConaghey's are doing? The split was awful to see, and I lost track of them after that.
The Moth class AGM minutes note that they aren't selling any Moths any more. They bought class numbering plaques, assuming they'd make more, but faster Moths have arrived and the cost of being competitive ($40,000++) is preventing significant growth.
Thanks Chris, that's a shame. I've been watching the Moths nationals the last few days, it's awesome to watch the crosses when they're moving sooo fast.
Talk about a physical boat....
Select to expand quotetheselkie said..Seebreasy73 said..Agent nods said..Seebreasy73 said..
but when you have to mass produce cheaply you will lack quality.
Actually mass production breeds quality....after 30 yrs experience in high volume manufacturing, the best quality comes from some of the highest speed lines ( but XXX expensive). A mistake at a high volume production is expensive as it does not affect just one item in production, it affects all the items in production, and maybe those already with the consumer.
I remember back in the 80's the Ford Sydney Pagewood factory, started assembling the Mazda 323 rebadged as the Ford Laser. The workers complained when they where shown how they would assemble the car, that there was just single screw holes etc for the panels etc - how were the going to make adjustments to panel fit if they did not have screw slots as they were used too? It was explained to them by the Japanese, not to worry it will fit....no adjustment needed.
yes, in a free, market controlled society, where you compete with your product. In a country with a communist or socialist orientation like Russia (or in the past Soviet Union - still the same crap today after different title) and China, massproduction was set rather on the "let's make more so if one breaks there is an other" rather than "let's make the best". Centuries ago when I was an apprentice in a machine shop my master & mentor told me that, it is important to carefully measure and tool, because the machine will not make a mistake, but I will.
Majority of the boats are made by human hands ()even today), so the quality of the vessels will depend greatly on the skills and experience of the labour force.
So, how would you rank?
Seabreasy
In my experience, Russian and Chinese manufacturing philosophies are worlds apart!
My ex was born and raised in Bulgaria. Each time he goes back to see his parents (he's over there now with our youngest child), he sees their prehistoric little Russian car still going strong and home appliances from his childhood (Communist era) continuing to be used.
In my experience, Russian made goods are built to last and are strong like the proverbial brick s....house!
Still curious to know more about your choice of boat...and why you chose it? Personally, in my opinion (and, just like a certain part of one's anatomy, everyone has one), this would be far more personal, insightful and helpful than what nationality builds the better yacht.
I've stated before that I am happy with my Australian built boat and the reason I chose it is because it is sturdy as a rock after 40 years on the water with 95% original equipment. Does what you ask it to do and does it reliably in most seas.
yep, perhaps that Bulgarian relaitve forgot to mention how many times those things have been repaired. we will debate into the night this like two school kids arguing "my dad's car is better than yours". Just as a side note, Lada is still around making cars that are at least10-20 years behind their western counterparts in quality www.lada.ru/en/ and remember Desert Storm, where the latest Russian tanks were knocked out without a single Abrams or Challenger lost? Anyhow, not on topic here.
Remember Japan it the 50-60's ish where made in Japan was the hallmark of crap. You would not say the same today.
This change first introduced by Toyota, which said build quality into the product and not only will it be a better product, but you can make it faster, and with less labour if everything just "snaps" together. Rather than making it fit.
Select to expand quotetheselkie said..Seebreasy73 said..Agent nods said..Seebreasy73 said..
but when you have to mass produce cheaply you will lack quality.
Actually mass production breeds quality....after 30 yrs experience in high volume manufacturing, the best quality comes from some of the highest speed lines ( but XXX expensive). A mistake at a high volume production is expensive as it does not affect just one item in production, it affects all the items in production, and maybe those already with the consumer.
I remember back in the 80's the Ford Sydney Pagewood factory, started assembling the Mazda 323 rebadged as the Ford Laser. The workers complained when they where shown how they would assemble the car, that there was just single screw holes etc for the panels etc - how were the going to make adjustments to panel fit if they did not have screw slots as they were used too? It was explained to them by the Japanese, not to worry it will fit....no adjustment needed.
yes, in a free, market controlled society, where you compete with your product. In a country with a communist or socialist orientation like Russia (or in the past Soviet Union - still the same crap today after different title) and China, massproduction was set rather on the "let's make more so if one breaks there is an other" rather than "let's make the best". Centuries ago when I was an apprentice in a machine shop my master & mentor told me that, it is important to carefully measure and tool, because the machine will not make a mistake, but I will.
Majority of the boats are made by human hands ()even today), so the quality of the vessels will depend greatly on the skills and experience of the labour force.
So, how would you rank?
Seabreasy
In my experience, Russian and Chinese manufacturing philosophies are worlds apart!
My ex was born and raised in Bulgaria. Each time he goes back to see his parents (he's over there now with our youngest child), he sees their prehistoric little Russian car still going strong and home appliances from his childhood (Communist era) continuing to be used.
In my experience, Russian made goods are built to last and are strong like the proverbial brick s....house!
Still curious to know more about your choice of boat...and why you chose it? Personally, in my opinion (and, just like a certain part of one's anatomy, everyone has one), this would be far more personal, insightful and helpful than what nationality builds the better yacht.
Hmmm.. Couldn't agree more.
I have to put a plug in for the Danes. the X-Yachts have to rank up there amongst the most sturdy and well built production yachts going around. I have to admit I am biased.
Select to expand quoteandy59 said..
I have to put a plug in for the Danes. the X-Yachts have to rank up there amongst the most sturdy and well built production yachts going around. I have to admit I am biased.
Good reason to be!
Andy, are you doing the Surf to City?
