Flysurfer Sonic 18m or 15m for light wind and TT ?

Ah come on dusta educate don't bash him. we all know the C4 2011 was especially fast and he's comparing the wrong kite types and giving a less than adequate reason why. But no need to crush his enthusiasm. I started to but thought better of it.

On that note to add to plummets reasoning, yep aspect and bridal configuration acting over a non rigid frame and the tow point distances over this non rigid frame.

ps I know I have been guilty of losing my sh$t so please don't think I'm standing on any higher ground man.

Exciting times for foils given their obscurity on our waters anyway.

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dusta said..
my 11m sonic is just as nimble as my 11 edge but pulls a ****ton more than the edge .

Red thumbs from the Ozone fan boys who havent flown the other kite. Kewl.

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Plummet said..
Talk facts. Theres no point personally insulting people. What does that gain?

Here's another fact. These high aspect race foils are good for dudes hunting low winds, hydrafoiling wanting to boost big as possible in light to medium winds and race. They are also wicked on the landboard and buggy.

But for most of the kitesurfing population kiting 18+ knots leis will still be the go to kite.

This is true. But I'm starting to meet a whole bunch of guys who now that they are on their foil kites, can't go back :) Give 'em a go guys. I'm planning on organising a "come a try" foil kite day with a friendly Ozone distributor here in Perth so everyone interested can come and ride everything on offer (Speed's & Sonic's, V2's and R1's). that way everyone gets a chance to ride everything back to back and form their own opinion. Thoughts ?

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jamesperth said..
( you all know I'm the WA rep right ??)
FS dont use mesh over the intake vents as they freeze over in cold (think sub zero) snow kiting conditions. We are discussing some kind of protection for the sand as a way to stop sand blowing in when parked. But, that's why FS also have a drainage system that allows sand to move to the wing tips and then exit the kite when flying. I believe we are the only one doing this. This system also lets water drain quicker too.

That does not make sense James as there is generally no liquid water in sub zero snow kite conditions. Other kites definitely have drainage systems, but not all of them do, including the latest very fast Elf kites.

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jamesperth said..
The mixer allows you to trim in/out certain characteristics on demand. It also allows you to restore your kite back to optimal flying after months / years of use. Fair to say all kites fly well when brand new, but our mixer lets us maintain our performance easily and simply over time. No cutting and modifying bridles needed (yes racers do this)

The mixer also a customer to introduce certain characteristics for certain courses - for example a course with a lot of downwind we can simply increase the camber of the kite so it can sit deeper and performs better downwind (this is what Diablo does with its new system) or we can flatten the kite to maximise upwind performance. All this can be done in seconds on the beach, at the time. The mixer doesn't create more need to tune the kite - all bridles across all brands are going to change over time, but we provide the customer a really easy way to maintain the original performance over time.

FS have chosen to use the mixer type of adjuster for the speed system, but it would not practically be used as you describe. FS chose to use this system long before kite racing ever began to get serious and it was for other reasons that they introduced it. In kite foil racing, courses are set with equal upwind and downwind legs, so a rider cannot tune his kite to go better downwind as that would leave them at a severe disadvantage in going upwind. Some brands are experimenting with bridles that engage when the kite is sheeted in and that help with downwind speed and angles, but I did not hear from any riders that its working particularly well when I was in China last week.
Riders of non "mixer" type speed systems can easily make similar adjustments without cutting and re-splicing/sewing bridles, and I have never heard of anyone actually doing that. I did see several riders check and adjust their speed systems though and it is a simple procedure.

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jamesperth said..
LCL's are short connection lines that sit between the canopy and people. This means if you need to replace a line, you can simple undo that one line from the kite and not have to open the whole bridle.

I've fixed kites with LCL's and normal tabs. The FS I replaced a bridle line on yeah it was a bit faster, but I reckon if a kite racer broke one primary bridle line they would want the whole bridle replaced and then there is little difference, if any, in time needed to replace the entire bridle.
For kite racing, bridle replacement is the answer to getting a kite back to peak performance and thats why I don't think all brands will adopt a mixer, as they don't see it as necessary.

When it comes to outright performance, which seems to be what kite racers want, then the things mentioned above make no difference to them if the kite is not fast and is seen to be winning races consistently.
There are a few brands that are winning races consistently, and I think if you looked at the results from Maxime, Nico, Johhny and Olly its clear which kites are consistently in the top 5, and that all that matters.

For freeride, then there are only a couple of brands and I'm glad you are working with Andrew in Perth to offer demo's together, but I suspect that most of your freeride customers will want a Speed4 or Chrono2 and they are the 2 kites that I'd personally choose to demo and compare. Most customers should not buy race kites, UNLESS they specifically want to race.
I saw several Chinese people complaining about their race kites, and it was flying skills, and the traits of a race kite that were the cause of the problem. Its super important to steer people wanting freeride kites away from race kites.

Foil development is another critical and probably near equal factor in winning races, the new Levitaz that Olly is riding is very fast, as is the KFA 3.50967 or whatever version is out there, and of course the Spotz was dominant in the Top 10 in China, but everyone has their own tweaking and tuning tips, rear wing angle and positioning seem very critical.

Oh Terry, here you go again


If it's cold enough, any moisture in the air will freeze. Think... snow. And wind chill is a bitch if anything gets wet. With, say, snow.

It sounds like you dont really understand what the mixer/speed system is for or how it works... and why it can be adjusted.

The primary advantage of LCLs is that they break before bridle lines or the canopy does... their breaking load is mich lower than even the bridle lines. And if one or a couple of bridle lines do break, the secondary advantage is that you don't have to spend $300+ on a whole bridle cos its "easier"...!

So the riders are talentless anchors being dragged around by fantastic race-winning kites? Yikes... don't let that opinion get out.

What a load of old cobblers... if race kites give you all the performance you want and you can live with the quirks, then it simply doesn't matter if you don't race. That'll be why Edges are popular with the freeride crowd

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Kamikuza said..

TerryMcTool said...
snip

Way overpowered; shouldn't have been out freerding on his race kite, should he? No they didn't help in this case but that doesn't negate their usefulness or their intended function -- which isn't changing bridles. For every example where it goes wrong there are many more where it doesn't.

Why type that? Because you said "Most customers should not buy race kites, UNLESS they specifically want to race" and that clearly and historically isn't the case at all -- race kites are great fun for freeride.

Yes you said, look at the results of the top five in racers -- the implication was very clear that they're there because of the gear they use, not their experience and skill, ergo Ozone is better. FS dominates the racing here, BTW... It's a moot point.

You're entitled to you opinion, just make sure you get the facts right.

... you think all F1 cars are the same? Give that car to that other driver over there and he'll not be able to drive it as well either; they're all set up so individually -- like you could with mixers etc -- to best suit the driver who uses it on a specific course. Also moot because there's no way the race kites are as twitchy...

Speed3 is a race kite?

Race kites are fun but only in the hands of someone who knows how to fly a high AR foil... You wouldn't give a landboarder or beginner buggier a Vapor or Quantum to jump around with, would you? I certainly wouldn't

He never mentioned Ozone is better, thats your tin foil hat paranoia there and clear disdain for anyone promoting Ozone.

Not a whole lot of facts being thrown around, mainly opinions and strawman arguments, especially your response to the F1 car analogy, way to miss the mark.

I think you need to relax Kami, why is it that nearly every foil thread quickly becomes derailed? Not everyone is so knowledgeable as yourself, a bit of humility in yours and others responses would go a long long way.

Have you flown a chrono yet? or just kicked its tyres?

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Kitepower Australia said..



Speed3 is a race kite?

Race kites are fun but only in the hands of someone who knows how to fly a high AR foil... You wouldn't give a landboarder or beginner buggier a Vapor or Quantum to jump around with, would you? I certainly wouldn't

He never mentioned Ozone is better, thats your tin foil hat paranoia there and clear disdain for anyone promoting Ozone.

Not a whole lot of facts being thrown around, mainly opinions and strawman arguments, especially your response to the F1 car analogy, way to miss the mark.

I think you need to relax Kami, why is it that nearly every foil thread quickly becomes derailed? Not everyone is so knowledgeable as yourself, a bit of humility in yours and others responses would go a long long way.

Have you flown a chrono yet? or just kicked its tyres?

Who's this? Terry's avatar or someone else entirely? So hard to keep track...

Speed3 was the highest AR kite, used for racing, at one time. Thanks for making my point again: what was once racing kit is now free-ride goodies. So are Elf, by the way...
Why would you give anyone wanting to "jump around" a fixed bridle, high-AR kite flown on handes? You trying to kill them?

You're not seriously suggesting that race kites are so bleeding-edge-of-the-envelope that mere mortals can't handle them, are you? The whole F1 argument is a straw man, but I thought the point he failed to make could be recycle to explain why someone would want to use different settings, and how they might suck for one person but be good for another... still not the main reason the mixer, IMO, but try dislodging that from some people's mind. Much like the use of LCLs...

Any reasonable competent kiter can use a foil or race foil and get from A to B, and even jump around with it... it's not rocket science, or even F1 driving.

Why does every post that ISN'T pro-Ozone/Chrono red-thumbed to death, like the original in this thread?

The most interesting and informative threads are often the ones that get derailed...!

These questions don't keep me awake at night... for I am very relaxed. Seems you can't point out actual factual errors without the overly-sensitive getting upset and demanding you accept their erroneous opinions as fact. If you want to point out the straw man arguments I've made and why that's the case, I'm open to that.

If you'd read the posts up in here, you'd have to answer to that last question