Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
If it's on the front you still face a similar dilemma as on the back, reaching the release when sh!t hits the fan is still almost impossible. Not to mention that with it on the front instead of bending the way your back is supposed to bend when being pulled hard, it instead pulls from the front extra hard and reverse tacos your spine (which is what happened to me)... I don't think either way is any better to be honest.
This thread is scaring the crap out of me! No bad thing. Rowdy could you explain why it would be almost impossible to reach the release when it's on the front? Even if you are being dragged under water the front of the harness I would have thought is within easy reach of either hand. Unless both hands are tangled in line I guess, then you are really screwed. I havnt been death looped.... Yet.
So would much appreciate the explanation. Cheers
Dave I'm sure rowdy will oblige. Although I haven't had a death looping kite I have been at the end of a kite out of control, which was looping by the way a few times in 30 plus winds. On honestly the pull on your body is so intense as you are getting dragged under and througtithe water at times you don't know which way is up and which way is down. Only thing you can do is relax and try and get orientated quick smart. Also if you can on the open water like what plummett said get your body streamlined and going across the water so you don't get jolted into disorientation again.
As soon as you see the looping out of control release both. But sometimes you can't and then eventually the release might not work.
No way out of this, just be vigilant ....Rowdy....your show
sad news but isnt a bit of danger a good thing, i think hand on heart its why i and we kite,its a bit out of the ordinary a bit of danger in our super safe lives, if the wasnt the risk would we all be as keen , cmon most of us get off in silly wind and swell its in our dna and its what attracted us to the sport
Pretty much what Eppo just said. I've seen the deathloop happen with front and back leash attachment and no-one I have ever witnessed has managed to reach and pull the release during the loop, only afterthe kite has stopped have they managed to do it and at that point front or back is no different as long as you can release it.
Also a big factor is that you are never being pulled directly forward or backward... so whether your leash is on front or back the release ppart will be jammed up hard against your body (likely under the arm) and you have no chance of finding it, or being able to get your fingers around it to pull it.
Thanks Eppo,
It's a sad thread given what initiated it, but a great reminder to be prepared as best you can for a bad situation. I also like to get into the mountains and ski steep and deep snow. Avalanche danger is very similar in that you try and avoid, or reduce the risk of avalanche, but totally prepare the best possible for what you do if you, or one of your mates do get avalanched.
Appreciated.
I have had my share of draggings in the very early days and I've been on the end of a spinning kite more than once. I never found the pull of the kite all that bad. It's spinning and it's ugly but it's also relatively stationary in the window. There's nothing like full power and it's not lifting you because it's not really flying.
I can't remember being in a death loop but I was once on the end of a 16m foil doing a monster spin. I just dug my heels in on the beach and hauled on the lines until I could bring it down.
We used to hear tales of near death experiences from "underwater submarine rides" (as if there was any kind). This is where you get pulled by the kite and your body down planes and drives you under. While they were scary they were no worse than a hold down in the surf.
The ultimate rule of water survival is always to not panic and not do stuff that will kill you. Trying to breathe under water is a sure way to die. You can hold your breath for much longer than you think.
I wonder if some of the problems that are experienced come from people with no background in the surf getting almost immediate exposure to big weather and big wind and serious water. Getting pounded by a shore break, or working your way out through sets on an open beach is a really good way to learn humility and how to stay alive in the water.
Select to expand quotecauncy said..
sad news but isnt a bit of danger a good thing, i think hand on heart its why i and we kite,its a bit out of the ordinary a bit of danger in our super safe lives, if the wasnt the risk would we all be as keen , cmon most of us get off in silly wind and swell its in our dna and its what attracted us to the sport
yep your right. if we didn't like the danger then we would all be playing tiddlywinks instead. I crave a 30+ day and monster swell. its what makes me feel alive. I was screaming down the mountain on my mountain bike the other night on some insanely steep track my brakes were howling. I literally caught them on fire. dangerous as hell riding over those baby head sized rocks at high speed... but dang that is also fun as hell. Riding on the edge.
We take as much practical precautions as we can. subject ourselves to perceived risk to get the thrill but try to limit the actual risk to a minimum. The cold hard reality is that its a role of the dice each time you go out. every now and then someone is unlucky. At that point it comes down to luck and whether your the type of person that panics or can react cooly and calmly in an extreme situation. Those that panic I think are screwed. those who can react stand a chance.
Absolutely plummet and cauncy, it's the buzz of not knowing the outcome, but still throwing yourself into to.
My wife says I am such a risk taker, but I don't see it that way .... You don't do stuff for the risk, you do it for the excitement of challenging yourself and do your best to reduce the risk of a bad outcome.
Back to rowdy, in engineering you sometimes have a shear point, or pin that will fail under a level of force likely to cause the whole structure or system to fail. I wonder if kite safety should not have an adjustable shear point that will let the whole lot go when a critical stress level is reached? Obviously you would have to design such that it would not let go in normal operations, but what rowdy described in a death loop where you can't even reach the safety sounds well in excess of regular banging around. In mine safety you try and engineer a safety solution that does not require human intervention to save a life. Just a thought.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
I never found the pull of the kite all that bad. It's spinning and it's ugly but it's also relatively stationary in the window. There's nothing like full power and it's not lifting you because it's not really flying.
I just dug my heels in on the beach and hauled on the lines until I could bring it down.
While they were scary they were no worse than a hold down in the surf.
You sound pretty sure of yourself... I would be touching on some wood after all that chat if I was you. It only needs to happen once - just because it hasn't been really bad any other time for you doesn't mean it can't be. Just be thank-full you've had it easy so far.
p.s.
I've been in the water all my life. One time my kite managed to crash in the wave in-front of me holding me in the pocket of the wave behind as I was getting tossed around, I got pulled nearly all the way into the beach with no possible way of releasing or getting free of that wave... I can tell you now that was far far far worse than any hold down I have had at any surf break I have ever been.
Kiting can be dangerous, respect it.
Select to expand quoteDave Whettingsteel said..
Absolutely plummet and cauncy, it's the buzz of not knowing the outcome, but still throwing yourself into to.
My wife says I am such a risk taker, but I don't see it that way .... You don't do stuff for the risk, you do it for the excitement of challenging yourself and do your best to reduce the risk of a bad outcome.
Back to rowdy, in engineering you sometimes have a shear point, or pin that will fail under a level of force likely to cause the whole structure or system to fail. I wonder if kite safety should not have an adjustable shear point that will let the whole lot go when a critical stress level is reached? Obviously you would have to design such that it would not let go in normal operations, but what rowdy described in a death loop where you can't even reach the safety sounds well in excess of regular banging around. In mine safety you try and engineer a safety solution that does not require human intervention to save a life. Just a thought.
ive let the whole lot go a couple of times more kite preservation than personal, as far as a shear point ive had a harness spreader release system shear and 700mtrs off shore, swimming back watching you beloved kite with harness in tow aint that good a feeling but pretty funny to those watching,itd be a tricky one getting the correct loads weight of rider etc, ask kim at gss about a harness failure might of cost him a board and kite from memory,
I remember Kim saying one of his kitemares was when his harness failed.
The ski bindings world went from a situation 20 years ago where people were snapping legs, knees all sorts through ski bindings releasing or not, automatically. These days they are really sophisticated with weight, style, conditions all factored into release settings.
I know the consequences of letting go of a kite are huge compared to a snow ski, but I wonder if there maybe some crossovers learnings for a life and death situation.
I guess if sir rowdys analysis that most death loop situations are caused by snags on bar ends is correct, then changing bar ends is a far more immediate and achievable risk reduction.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
I can't remember being in a death loop but I was once on the end of a 16m foil doing a monster spin. I just dug my heels in on the beach and hauled on the lines until I could bring it down.
.
Sometimes you can't dig your heels in. This was not a death loop but a front coming thru. Experienced kiter.
This article is also about the event www.surfertoday.com/kiteboarding/death-loop-kills-kitesurfer-in-quebec
A tragedy. Condolences to his family and friends.
That death loop video is certainly confronting. Getting dragged like that would make it very difficult to get to a line knife and use it.
There must be something specific about how the lines are tensioned/tangled - you would expect the kite to slam in to the water and stop rather than keep looping.
A backup knife sounds like a good idea too.
Select to expand quotePeterc150 said..
That death loop video is certainly confronting. Getting dragged like that would make it very difficult to get to a line knife and use it.
When I read that it actually made me laugh out loud.
I reckon sir Rowdys bar ends issue is one to be considered but a seriously minor one.
Fix the line-round-bar cause & it still leaves a dozen ways the death loop can happen.
The only real answer is to find a solution that will be 99.9% workable once the kitemare is happening - regardless of the cause.
Those that havent experienced it shouldnt think a cool head or having set your final release in the right place or carrying a machete in your impact vest is going to help. The bucking bull comment was pretty spot on. Once its out of control it really is OUT OF CONTROL.
I once went through the full "Im going to die" panic back to desperate clear thinking but no amount of self control was going to let me get on top of the situation. There were no QR on leashes then but it wouldnt have helped if there had been. There was NO way I was going to be able to reach anything - front or rear mounted. Only thing that saved me that day was the kite gave up the fight.
The QR harness is a great thought. If theres a fail-safe release built into the harness thats always right there for you in the same place 100% of the time then - presumably - you would be in the clear unless part of your body is caught up in the problem.
SS used to have the 'sure-fire' spring open harness hook which I used for years. One small lever always right there, always in the same place. One hit & you were onto your leash. Awesome system but obsolete now with universal push away QR's at the head of your chicken loop.
Something similar as part of the bar or hook for back-up if your leash release isnt available could solve almost all extreme kite-loop-mares.
Nothing will ever cover every incident 100%.
Jeez - look at that guy heading for the building.
Why the hell didnt he pull out his knife & cut the lines !!!
The things we do to make us feel we are on top of everything - yeah right.
That footage comes from years & years ago. Didnt have QR systems anything like today. If he did have then maybe in that first catapult - before he hit the beach - Im guessing he may have had time to eject. IF he thought quickly enough. The 2nd stage - totally beyond any help then. Even if the first reaction was the chicken loop QR I doubt if he could have pinged the kite leash bw the beach & the building.
Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said..
I reckon sir Rowdys bar ends issue is one to be considered but a seriously minor one.
Fix the line-round-bar cause & it still leaves a dozen ways the death loop can happen.
Care to elaborate on the other dozen ways??? I can think of one other, a line gets wrapped around your kite...
It will be interesting to see what the Coroners Inquest for this will find: www.iheartradio.ca/cjad
Attaching the leash to the front of your harness is ok in a loop situation in the water but if your kite goes out of control on land then it's very difficult to reach the release while being dragged face down,attaching to the side is best as you can always reach it and there's less chance of it snagging on the spreader,I've had no problems punching out both Qr's when under full tension,although the push away release is way easier.
I don't often reply to these things, but no-one seems to have mentioned that probably the best safety system for not going into deathloops is the 5th line one (any brand). The 5th line system has taken a fair bit of criticism for possibly cutting kites in waves, but I still reckon it gives you the best chance if the **** hits the fan. Personally I like the North release because it's very well made and always works. I'm prepared to accept a fair bit of depower line wear and some of the other durability issues people moan about to know I have a reliable release.
Having said that, I have a bracelet scar around my wrist from an occasion where my kite dropped in the waves, I got pushed into my lines and the lines wrapped around my wrist at the same time as the kite got picked up by a set wave and then submarined me all the way to the beach-nothing I could do and no release or hook knife in the world would have helped me,very very scary. Big waves=big consequences, and it doesn't matter how good you think you are, you can still die in this sport very easily.
Select to expand quotePhezulu1 said..
I don't often reply to these things, but no-one seems to have mentioned that probably the best safety system for not going into deathloops is the 5th line one (any brand). The 5th line system has taken a fair bit of criticism for possibly cutting kites in waves, but I still reckon it gives you the best chance if the **** hits the fan.
And how are you supposed to use the 5th-line in a "death loop" situation? especially one on the suicide leash? You have exactly the same problem as every other kite. It's no better.
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..puppetonastring said..
I reckon sir Rowdys bar ends issue is one to be considered but a seriously minor one.
Fix the line-round-bar cause & it still leaves a dozen ways the death loop can happen.
Care to elaborate on the other dozen ways??? I can think of one other, a line gets wrapped around your kite...
I can think of a few. ^^^
How about your death-leash wrapping around your harness hook ?
How about your death-leash wrapping around your big-arse bar-end ?
How about incorrect attachment of flying lines prior to launching ?
How about over-long bridles that wrap around your wingtip for all sorts of reasons ?
How about when your bar gets jammed under your harness hook ?
How about tripping on the beach and then majorly oversteering your kite ?
How about psycho weather acting upon your kite ?
How about a rogue loose kite hooking up with your own ?
*The last one is a bit far-fetched. ^
Select to expand quotekiteboy dave said..
Sometimes you can't dig your heels in. This was not a death loop but a front coming thru. Experienced kiter.
Heavy footage getting thrown into the building, but - looks like he was holding onto the bar during the whole ordeal!?
Select to expand quotewaveslave said..sir ROWDY said..puppetonastring said..
I reckon sir Rowdys bar ends issue is one to be considered but a seriously minor one.
Fix the line-round-bar cause & it still leaves a dozen ways the death loop can happen.
Care to elaborate on the other dozen ways??? I can think of one other, a line gets wrapped around your kite...
I can think of a few. ^^^Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said.."How about your death-leash wrapping around your harness hook ?"Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said.."How about your death-leash wrapping around your big-arse bar-end ?"Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said.."How about incorrect attachment of flying lines prior to launching ?"Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said.."How about over-long bridles that wrap around your wingtip for all sorts of reasons ?"Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said.."How about when your bar gets jammed under your harness hook ?"Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said.."How about tripping on the beach and then majorly oversteering your kite ?"Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said.."How about psycho weather acting upon your kite ?"Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said.."How about a rogue loose kite hooking up with your own ?"Select to expand quotepuppetonastring said..
*The last one is a bit far-fetched. ^
The last one was the only one that wasn't mentioned already and is possible to occur.
So in summary there are 4 ways we have identified that "Death looping" is possible to occur.
1. Line caught on end of bar. (the most common one and the only one I've witnessed to cause bodily harm)
2. Line caught on kite, bridal or flying line. (usually this doesn't lend itself to the dangerous death looping situation, more often it's just an out of control spiraling kite with little power, but it is possible)
3. Hook under end of bar. (if you have a long handle then it is possible that the kite will death loop if caught right on the end-winder)
4. Tangle with someone else and get caught in such a way as to create a death loop. (although very un-likely to occur and maintain a deathloop situation, it could happen)
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
I've been in the water all my life. One time my kite managed to crash in the wave in-front of me holding me in the pocket of the wave behind as I was getting tossed around, I got pulled nearly all the way into the beach with no possible way of releasing or getting free of that wave... I can tell you now that was far far far worse than any hold down I have had at any surf break I have ever been.
Kiting can be dangerous, respect it.
Rowdy was this unhooked or hooked in?
It's almost as though in a death drag/loop situation it would be better not to be hooked in, as that way the only attachment point to the kite is the leash, which can be released.
If hooked in, first unhooking would be required, then, releasing from the leash. Unhooking is often going to make little difference if riding suicide or if not lines by this stage are too tangle for the flagging line to work anyway. Either that or get the knife out and start cutting lines, which as suggested, would be more difficult than it sounds in a death drag situation.
I was un-hooked just attached to the leash. But releasing from that was impossible whilst going through a non-stop washing machine ride haha. I think wave-riding without a leash is a lot safer in some situations and isn't really needed as much as if you were doing freestyle tricks.
Big-arse bar-ends that are fat and ugly exist cause the designer has combined winder and floaty all-in-one.
Again, why do kite-bars need to float ...?
I've forgotten.
Select to expand quoteDave Whettingsteel said..
... could you explain why it would be almost impossible to reach the release when it's on the front? ...
The bucking bull effect (thanks puppet, or a "mechanical bull" how I call it:). Imagine riding it with both hands free!
It happened by:Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
3. Hook under end of bar. (if you have a long handle then it is possible that the kite will death loop if caught right on the end-winder)
3 more I have seen:
Kite end leash clip attaching /jumping/clipping to bar end/ lines/leader lines at ends when unhooking - then being dragged by leash attached to corner of bar in death loop.
I have seen snapped/broken bridle line going absolutely spazzo helicopter in 30 -40 knots - they got dragged and managed to fully release eventually. You got to know whats happing to a kite should any pulley/bridle break.
6 or 7 times i have seen flatter kites go half inside out and literally turn into a helicopter (cabs) - i'm talking 3-4 loops a second! I reckon this happened to flatter kites that were not inflated real hard - have not seen one for a while.
The craziest things i had happen were unhooking and half hitching my arm in my leash and stripping a big chunk of skin and fat off my arm, and unhooking and having the leash hook at kite end , jump into depower hole of kite bar - this really scared me cos it was real windy and my kite was fuuuuully powered up with me hardly able to breath being dragged underwater.
I done that hook under end of bar on an 18m x2 back in the day - thankfully just about the slowest kite of all time lol i grabbed leader line to slam in into ground for some slack.
a lot of good info from everyone, thx.
I got a vid of 2 kiters stuck together harness hook to harness hook deathlooping from this year at my local beach - one hell of a sight! i'll see if i can upload it with the worlds slowest upload speeds sometime.
So (devil's advocate??) if U have a looping kite (after say 10 loops) and sufficient wits about you are we saying...
First release your kite leash
then
Second release your QR?
As a last port of call, I always hoped to be able to release my harness and could in the past, - but my current setup with a sliding bar does not have any quick about releasing the straps..
1 point I have not noticed mentioned, a few harnesses have a QR on the handle-pass line so you could have the chance of releasing this if you have the kite leash attached here but out of reach.
Cheers
AP
