Condolences to the family, very sad story.
Here is what I have done to improve the safety. The tab to pull the hook knife out of my ION Apex harness is tiny and I could not even pull it out quickly standing on the beach. Even if you could pull it blindly while being dragged you would probably lose it right away.
I just took some rope and tied a "monkey fist" to the hook knife. The monkey fist gives you a good grip of the knife and you are less likely to lose it. I doubt it would be of any use if you were violently ragdolled and dragged under water but for the "average" emergency it is a massive improvement and it costs nothing.
Unfortunately sometimes Kite surfing can be a very dangerous sport at times, I had one death loop experience about 5 or 6 years ago, I was out in about 35knots of wind doing jumps and tricks as per normal, I was doing great until I stuffed up on one my kite loops, the kite stalled and fell out of the sky, just before the kite hit the water my chicken loop unhooked, anyway just as I had pulled back the bar the kite went into a death loop, the problem was one of the back lines was wrapped around the bar and my left hand as well, I tried to free my hand by pulling at it and using my other hand but it was impossible, after about 8 kite loops the kite hit the water which gave me a second to catch my breath, but there was not enough time to free my hand, and then all of a sudden the kite starts spinning again, after about another 6 or 8 kite loops the kite hits the water again, this time around I finally pull my hand free, it took about 1 minute to free my hand the lines had been wrapped around so tight, if the kite had starting spinning again I probably would of drowned. Even if I had a knife it would been very hard to cut myself free. Sometimes freak accidents occur and there is nothing you can do about it, I have been Kite surfing since 1998 and this has only happened to me once, but it just goes to show experience means nothing when it comes to kite surfing, when your time is up there is not much you can do about it. But until then I say kite surf as much as possible. Cheers
I here by give consent to grab the nearest knife and dice my kite upon said kitemare and while in an unconcious state.
Would be nice to see a few improvements from the leading brands to help reduce these occurances
I had a great session yesterday at my local, came home, read about this accident, so went back down to the garage and checked my near new Dakine harness for the knife and to my surprise, found that it had gone! I must admit that is one of the things that I don't regularly check, but will now. Maybe all of us that carry a knife should check and see that it is actually there!!
My sympathy for the family and friends.
None of us want to put our family in that position.
I carry a second knife ( one hand openable, three inch blade, big enough to cut mt depower line or a cray pot line, in addition to the standard hook knife.
Not that it will halp in all situations, but it reminds me to check both safeties and both knifes before every flight.
All sports have risks, we have to take precautions and accept that they will always be there. Avalanches take a few snowboarders every year in Canada, and a similar example will exist for every sport out there.
But I am still more likely to due in a car crash on the way too the beach, so it's all in perspective.
Look before you launch and in the words of an old pilot, " I would rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air wishing I was on the ground".
Better to be on the shore wishing you were on the water than in the water wishing you were on the shore.
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
I've been saying this for a while now, but, no amount of re-designed/improved safety release systems are going to fix this problem... to fix the problem you must fix the cause and 99% of the time the cause of an out of control looping kite is those silly big "end-winders" most brands have as stock now. YES those things that look like a golf club head on the end of bars. Like on Cab bars, they are a joke and they have caused many potentially fatal incidents I have witnessed first-hand. Usually a line or the handle pass leash gets caught up on the angles or bulk of the end winder and is enough to keep the kite looping until it hits something solid.
This has happened to me on a few occasions.
If hooked in it usually involves going underwater with open eyes to try and identify/untangle the line which has wrapped around the bar. Releasing to safety doesn't usually help due to the tangle.
If unhooked, well only option is to release the whole thing.
Select to expand quotebene313 said..sir ROWDY said..
I've been saying this for a while now, but, no amount of re-designed/improved safety release systems are going to fix this problem... to fix the problem you must fix the cause and 99% of the time the cause of an out of control looping kite is those silly big "end-winders" most brands have as stock now. YES those things that look like a golf club head on the end of bars. Like on Cab bars, they are a joke and they have caused many potentially fatal incidents I have witnessed first-hand. Usually a line or the handle pass leash gets caught up on the angles or bulk of the end winder and is enough to keep the kite looping until it hits something solid.
This has happened to me on a few occasions.
If hooked in it usually involves going underwater with open eyes to try and identify/untangle the line which has wrapped around the bar. Releasing to safety doesn't usually help due to the tangle.
If unhooked, well only option is to release the whole thing.
Agree some of the bar ends are not an ideal shape, but have not heard of the Cab ones being an issue even though they are a bit ugly, they are quite pliable and would bend and release the leash/leader IMO.
But riders that are unhooking and passing, should be aware of this and practice getting out of that situation, even if it means pinging the leash release!
BUT the more serious and preventable cause of many of these incidents and kitemares is the stupid idea to attach the leash to the back of the harness, so that when the kite does loop and pull in an out of control situation, the rider is getting pulled backwards and often pulled under the water as well.
Unless you have a real reason for putting a leash on the loop at the back of the harness DON'T, just put on the side or the front so that in an emergency you can reach the release.
The topic made me think about my hook knife and where it was etc..
I check my harness, Pat Love Quest, it has a puch for it.. took it out and while cleaning it it basically fell apart. The plastic has degraded with time, possibly about 4 years old. It broke at the end where it secures the little blade in place.
So if I was going to need it, I'd be in trouble as it would not only not cut but fall apart when I needed it most.
So go and check the integrity of your plastic ones and the blades. Just like the lines - if it looks like its dying or has weak points BIN IT and get a new one.
I now have 2 on the way already, one for each harness..
Peace up and good winds.
Condolences to the fellow kiter and his family..
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
I have been working on bars with catch-free ends for years now..
Just read through this topic for the first time out of interest. Out of curiosity, if the end-winder is the issue, surely that can be resolved from a design perspective. What have been your ideas and why have they been rejected? I can think of several ways to have a catch-free bar that still has an end-winder (at least in theory they may work).
Select to expand quoteBlackTooth said..
Unfortunately sometimes Kite surfing can be a very dangerous sport at times, I had one death loop experience about 5 or 6 years ago, I was out in about 35knots of wind doing jumps and tricks as per normal, I was doing great until I stuffed up on one my kite loops, the kite stalled and fell out of the sky, just before the kite hit the water my chicken loop unhooked, anyway just as I had pulled back the bar the kite went into a death loop, the problem was one of the back lines was wrapped around the bar and my left hand as well, I tried to free my hand by pulling at it and using my other hand but it was impossible, after about 8 kite loops the kite hit the water which gave me a second to catch my breath, but there was not enough time to free my hand, and then all of a sudden the kite starts spinning again, after about another 6 or 8 kite loops the kite hits the water again, this time around I finally pull my hand free, it took about 1 minute to free my hand the lines had been wrapped around so tight, if the kite had starting spinning again I probably would of drowned. Even if I had a knife it would been very hard to cut myself free. Sometimes freak accidents occur and there is nothing you can do about it, I have been Kite surfing since 1998 and this has only happened to me once, but it just goes to show experience means nothing when it comes to kite surfing, when your time is up there is not much you can do about it. But until then I say kite surf as much as possible. Cheers
OMG.
You had it once but a proper one....Select to expand quoteradman4 said..
...was glad I'd just bought a new waist harness with a release on the spreader and could get it off easily.
I agree totally. The only way sometimes is to release the harness. Which model is this radman4?
I've had a few death loops and the problem with all of them was that my body was dragged almost vertically in the water. My hands were behind me on every kite power "stroke" and it was impossible to reach anything. All this was with a seat harness.
Imagine riding a "mechanical bull" - that's how my hands went off in the air...
In a seat harness it's impossible to balance your body as with a waist one. All waist harnesses should have a spreader bar release.
Select to expand quoteFun45 said..sir ROWDY said..
I have been working on bars with catch-free ends for years now..
Just read through this topic for the first time out of interest. Out of curiosity, if the end-winder is the issue, surely that can be resolved from a design perspective. What have been your ideas and why have they been rejected? I can think of several ways to have a catch-free bar that still has an end-winder (at least in theory they may work).
The thing is, if there is a " [ " shape in the end winder to roll the lines on there will always be potential to catch a leash or line on that. Also if the end winder is large enough to have this shape recessed into it, it has far greater potential of catching a leash or line even on a part that seems as though it wouldn't snag a line at all... let experience and others accidents and situations be a testament to that! (we have already had a few people say it's happened to them in this thread alone). It's no good saying it's "unlikely to happen" which is what kite companies usually say, because the truth is it has happened to a lot of people, and it has killed people...
My own handles (bars) that I have created are usually just a hybrid of a Wakeboarding handle and a Kite handle. Wakeboarding handles don't have a big chunky end to roll lines onto, they are streamlined and end posts usually point in a direction that lends itself least to catching a line on it. I have been working lately on a new Handle and I will post some pictures up when I get the chance.
Select to expand quotekiteboy dave said..
The moral of this thread is manufacturers we need a quick release harness!
Although that may be useful in some situations, what we really need is a real solution to the actual problem. Not another potential point of failure on-top of an already big problem... Streamlined bar ends are what we need.
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..kiteboy dave said..
The moral of this thread is manufacturers we need a quick release harness!
Although that may be useful in some situations, what we really need is a real solution to the actual problem. Not another potential point of failure on-top of an already big problem... Streamlined bar ends are what we need.
I partly agree. What happened once to me as well was the bar end (yes Cab) was caught in the spreader hook. No way to release that and unhook yourself.
Btw, the Cab harness had 2 releases for the back rope, one on each side. So even when unhooked with a back leash there was an option to release ether way. But the above happened on that harness so no way:(
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
The thing is, if there is a " [ " shape in the end winder to roll the lines on there will always be potential to catch a leash or line on that. Also if the end winder is large enough to have this shape recessed into it, it has far greater potential of catching a leash or line even on a part that seems as though it wouldn't snag a line at all... let experience and others accidents and situations be a testament to that! (we have already had a few people say it's happened to them in this thread alone). It's no good saying it's "unlikely to happen" which is what kite companies usually say, because the truth is it has happened to a lot of people, and it has killed people...
That is just it, from a design perspective there is no need for a large shape at the end that will catch the lines. The bar can have a recessed arm that can extend out when ready to wind the lines. When in use - the arm folds into the bar - or presses against it like in a moulded format. Ok - think of a Plane with it's wheels down for landing and up for flying. You can then design the lines to connect to the bar any way you want.
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
It's no good saying it's "unlikely to happen" which is what kite companies usually say, because the truth is it has happened to a lot of people, and it has killed people...
PS I'm not one of those people to say "unlikely to happen". I'm not experienced enough to know. I'm just running with your thought process as you mentioned you are involved in designing. FWIW
Select to expand quoteFun45 said..sir ROWDY said..
The thing is, if there is a " [ " shape in the end winder to roll the lines on there will always be potential to catch a leash or line on that. Also if the end winder is large enough to have this shape recessed into it, it has far greater potential of catching a leash or line even on a part that seems as though it wouldn't snag a line at all... let experience and others accidents and situations be a testament to that! (we have already had a few people say it's happened to them in this thread alone). It's no good saying it's "unlikely to happen" which is what kite companies usually say, because the truth is it has happened to a lot of people, and it has killed people...
That is just it, from a design perspective there is no need for a large shape at the end that will catch the lines. The bar can have a recessed arm that can extend out when ready to wind the lines. When in use - the arm folds into the bar - or presses against it like in a moulded format. Ok - think of a Plane with it's wheels down for landing and up for flying. You can then design the lines to connect to the bar any way you want.
This is true, however you actually don't need to roll your lines around the bar ends anyway! haha.
Next time you go to the beach, figure-8 your lines around the bar only and see what I mean. It's actually superior to winding around the ends for a couple of reasons - 1. You don't need to be very precise, saving you time. 2. Lines never fall off the end and create a birds nest.
Just try it for a few sessions and you will see. It is practically no different to winding on the ends, except people just think that they have to do it that way.
Select to expand quotePaul1 said..
Here is an example.
?rel=0
Condolences to the family of the Canadian Kiter.
I'm a relative newbie, and I have never experienced a 'deathloop', so apologies if this is a stupid question, but the video has got me suitably rattled.
I can understand that a tangle could leave one's kite in a deathloop even after the quick release has been fired. But it looks from the video like the kiter could have triggered the release on the leash and all would have been well (all be it, with one less kite in the quiver). Is there a reason why this would not have worked?
Is there a scenario why a modern leash could not be released to prevent this scenario?
Select to expand quoteKitepower Australia said..
have not heard of the Cab ones being an issue even though they are a bit ugly, they are quite pliable and would bend and release the leash/leader IMO.
Have had it happen on my Cabrinha setup on a number of occasions but only once did it get to a life or death situation. I have mentioned it in conversation to my local dealer but from what I've seen on the beaches all bars have some sort of line winding groove/bulge arrangement.
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
This is true, however you actually don't need to roll your lines around the bar ends anyway! haha.
Next time you go to the beach, figure-8 your lines around the bar only and see what I mean. It's actually superior to winding around the ends for a couple of reasons - 1. You don't need to be very precise, saving you time. 2. Lines never fall off the end and create a birds nest.
Just try it for a few sessions and you will see. It is practically no different to winding on the ends, except people just think that they have to do it that way.
I will give it a go next time. The perception from the manufacturers though suggests they will go with the broader need (perceived or otherwise) of having end-winders. If this could save a life - might be worth those in touch with the decision makers and designers to chat about it. My "two bobs worth". 
Select to expand quotemoon waxing said..Kitepower Australia said..
have not heard of the Cab ones being an issue even though they are a bit ugly, they are quite pliable and would bend and release the leash/leader IMO.
Have had it happen on my Cabrinha setup on a number of occasions but only once did it get to a life or death situation. I have mentioned it in conversation to my local dealer but from what I've seen on the beaches all bars have some sort of line winding groove/bulge arrangement.
Ok there you go. I wonder if we are expecting too much from gear that is essentially not designed to do what people are trying to do with it? That is trying to ride like they are being towed by a cable/boat. Have a look at a ski rope handle and a kite bar (big difference), one has a single line with a simple Y to the ends, and the other has to control a kite with sheeting, trimming and steering. One you are not attached to (even unhooked you are still attached, unless you are riding without a leash, then none of these issues have this consequence)
Maybe people are doing things with their kites and bars that the manufacturers had no intention of designing for and none of the manufacturers are brave enough to say that yet?? 
Another angle could be that people that try to emulate s ski-boat/cable are just blaming the tool and not taking responsibility for their own actions (and they have a complete kite release system, or should have, within easy reach)
Just playing devils advocate.
There has been no clear communication about what actually caused the incident in this thread either. There has been mention of a poorly designed chicken loop release, but even that was not clear.
Select to expand quoteKitepower Australia said..
Maybe people are doing things with their kites and bars that the manufacturers had no intention of designing for and none of the manufacturers are brave enough to say that yet??
Am I reading your post wrong? This is from the Cabrinha website, a harness with an attachment on the back...
Some sensible dialogue here. Some modification ideas bar wise, harness ideas and indeed at least making it come to the forefront of our minds at the moment. One thing is for sure, most of you know I've been kiting a while so no point is saying how long again, but for some reason that incident really got to me. Don't ask me why, there has been plenty of other deaths through this sport over the years and plenty of stories of near deaths.
Not sure why it spooked me? But it has.
One thing is for sure at the slightest sign of my kites going into a death loop I'm gonna lean my body back and quick release! Of course these things happen so fast, but at least it is going to be something I will be keeping a close look at.
Maybe I have become to complacent over the years and something is telling me to wake the farq up and realise what can happen. Just a dude going for a normal kite (albeit it seems no a great choice in venue and winds - but hey who hasnt done that), and now he's dead. Like bad driving habbits that creep in, time for me to go back to the basics safety wise for a bit.
Select to expand quotePaul1 said..
This is where the Cabrinha release is good, as generally no matter what situation you are in, you can always reach your chicken loop to release from the kite completely....
?rel=0
Paul,
This system is no more safe then any other latest systems, it's all got to do with getting to the second release, the Cabrinda second release at the chicken loop would be hard to find if you are being dragged on your stomach, I still believe in the setup Any Yates put me on is best, that is having the safety leash attached at the front of your harness, with a modification to this by adding a extension to this that most do when doing handle pass's, placing the extention between the harness and the release section which allows you to get to it in almost all positions, that is if you are conscious!! :-(
Good reason not tie your safety leash to the back of your harness, in strong wind you get pulled backwards mostly under water and you cant turn around to eject coz of the force of the water...speaking from experience..4m swell 35knot wsw no one out..5m kite too..it only stopped once it hit the beach after looping about 8-9 times. Def a good subject to discuss and be better prepared for...small decisions might save your life one day..
Although in theory I understand having the suicide to the front should be a safer option, however having tried both myself for a fair amount of time I didn't find it any safer and I actually got more injured with it on the front.
If it's on the front you still face a similar dilemma as on the back, reaching the release when sh!t hits the fan is still almost impossible. Not to mention that with it on the front instead of bending the way your back is supposed to bend when being pulled hard, it instead pulls from the front extra hard and reverse tacos your spine (which is what happened to me)... I don't think either way is any better to be honest.
Select to expand quotekiteboy dave said..
The moral of this thread is manufacturers we need a quick release harness!
I agree.
A lot of the suggestions are directed toward avoiding problems and are good ideas. They can reduce the likelihood of a problem arising or may make it easier to get back to kiting if a problem occurs.
If a problem occurs and by getting rid of the harness, you get rid of the danger (which is the situation in almost all of the cases) then getting rid of the harness solves all those problems.
Apart from a quick release to get rid of the harness itself, the primary and secondary releases to depower the kite and get rid of the kite leash could also be built into the harness. So all the releases could be on the front of the harness and you could operate them in sequence - primary - kite leash - harness, or go straight to the harness release.
The so-called quick-releases on many of the harnesses are not quick and often require both hands to operate and also slackening of straps before using both hands to release it (and that is when you are just taking your harness off and there isn't a kite dragging you). A proper Q/R would be reachable and operable with either hand with very little force when under load.
My experience:
If it's over 25knots, then leash at the front (not likely to unhook comfortably anymore).
Yes I found out the hard way that involuntary rag dolled backward kiteloops in 30+ knots are not fun (in my case my old F-One velcro leash release snapped on the 4th loop, 200m down the track- very happy with that result). Can't see how a knife would help here...Think power of a normal kiteloop crash+backwards+face full of water+ 4x in a row with no down time.
Leashing on the back slider rope under 25 knots (obviously for handle passes). I had a Liquid Force harness with side releases for the back rope forever coming undone by itself. On the right track, but needs improvement.
If the line does snag a bar end (assumed hooked in) Do a quick full lock to full lock from one side to the other with the bar to help it unsnag (going to have to fight instict here and grab the bar in the middle, so the releasing line doesn't grab your hand).
Seems a theme here for the bro's that have had scary death loops. High winds.
I'm going to put my helmet police helmet on and say... high winds ... good idea to wear a helmet. it might not stop you downing. but could save your life if you getting rag dolled down the beach.
Another thing to have in mind with snagging incidents is whether pulling the powerline to you from above the bar would help. It might depower the kite onto the two front lines.
Not always useful, but its worth remembering that option for consideration - if you have time to think.
