Who is the government you two are talking about?
It is almost accurate to say that the state government funds the public schools and the federal government gives the state schools nothing.
Conversely, the federal government partially funds private schools while the state government gives nothing to private schools.
So if a child moves from private school to public school the federal government save a few dollars and the state government has a budget problem.
Happy to be corrected if I am wrong?!
I wasn't distinguishing between state and federal just lumping tax payer dollars in general. The point I wanted to make was that private schools don't reduce available funding to public schools the opposite they free up money. That is if you accept the premise that the goverment owes every kid an education. A private school education costs the government less than a public one why because parents contribute towards that education out of their own pocket.
So all the private school bashers who just take off the government and dont contribute to their kids education should drop the crap about silver spoons and elitism and maybe appreciate the fact that without private schools the public schools would be financially worse off.
Cal if I am wrong than just demonstate to me where equivalent or more tax payer dollars get allocated per student to private school students than public school students. I dont believe that is the case and earlier in this thread I referenced a source that backed that argument rather than just direct someone to read something.
I understand that suggestion Cammd, but the funding of education in Australia includes more than dollars spent per student. It also includes tax and rate exemptions, tax deductability of donations and even things like payroll tax exemptions. Our reporting systems dont really allow for definative figures of the cost of each type of education but a reading of Gonski argues the value of the 'independent sector' but also mentions many of the hidden tax dollar expenses therein. I agree with giving each student a base fund dollar and believe in the value of the independents, but I strongly disagree with blindly quoting dollars spent per student when there are many unreported expenses applicable to private institutions.
Select to expand quoteCal said...
I understand that suggestion Cammd, but the funding of education in Australia includes more than dollars spent per student. It also includes tax and rate exemptions, tax deductability of donations and even things like payroll tax exemptions. Our reporting systems dont really allow for definative figures of the cost of each type of education but a reading of Gonski argues the value of the 'independent sector' but also mentions many of the hidden tax dollar expenses therein. I agree with giving each student a base fund dollar and believe in the value of the independents, but I strongly disagree with blindly quoting dollars spent per student when there are many unreported expenses applicable to private institutions.
I have been watching this thread for a while and people's ignorant opinions are amazing. Finally some sense. READ GONSKI - or at least the executive summary.
And, because you won't, let me summarise. The government gives private school students more money per student when it is all added up.
Cal, thank you.
PS: I did read a lot of Gonski BTW. Should have saved my time. Abbott isn't doing anything about it.
Select to expand quotecammd said...
I wasn't distinguishing between state and federal just lumping tax payer dollars in general. The point I wanted to make was that private schools don't reduce available funding to public schools the opposite they free up money. That is if you accept the premise that the goverment owes every kid an education. A private school education costs the government less than a public one why because parents contribute towards that education out of their own pocket.
So all the private school bashers who just take off the government and dont contribute to their kids education should drop the crap about silver spoons and elitism and maybe appreciate the fact that without private schools the public schools would be financially worse off.
We can afford a private school education, but choose not to send our two kids there. We pay all our fees, buy all the uniforms, go to P&C fundraisers, I am on my son's school board, pay for camps. How am I not contributing to my children's education? It's elitists like you that make me send my kids to a public school - theres a better class of people there.
Why don't you go read Gonski so you are talking with some degree of reality and knowledge instead of speaking from ignorance about a fantasy world? It's all in Gonski and opinion disappears with knowledge. Bet you are a climate change sceptic and think the world is flat too.....sigh....
Cal fair enough its not as clear cut as just a dollar figure per student. My main beef was with the suggestion that parents who send their kids to private school are rich elitists who take advantage of less fortunate. Perhaps the very rich who can afford big tax deductible donations and other tax reducing schemes skew the numbers but many many average parents just pay the fees and make sacrifices to do so and in doing so cop crap like that outburst from "thedrip"
So to all the people saying read the Gonski report, what if Abbot wrote one? Would you say read that?
Just asking 
Let me ask you this Cal. If all government funding was cut to private schools would that result in a better or worse outcome for the public system given many parents simply couldn't afford the extra cost and would opt for the public system. I am sure the very wealthy wouldn't be affected but a lot of average families would.
Kk, yes, Id read the exec summary and evaluate from there. Big difference being Gonski was a non political evaluation, Abbott is yet to prove he is capable of the thought processes that requires.
Cammd, I strongly suggest that as a net result the state schools would be markedly better off if all funding, direct and indirect, were transferred with the students. I suspect there would be a few exceptions.
And to be clear, I dont believe it is realistic to interpret my comments as being about elitists etc. I believe I have acknowledged there is value in funding an element of independent school education in Australia.
Select to expand quotekk said...
So to all the people saying read the Gonski report, what if Abbot wrote one? Would you say read that?
Just asking
Gonski was independent of politics and was tasked with reviewing the state of our education systems and making recommendations on how to improve those systems (including funding) into the future. Your comment demonstrates yet another comment from someone with little idea about Gonski. Which is why I refrained from commenting for so long.
Gonski is an independent academic. Labour were ignoring some of his recommendations; Abbott has pretty much scrapped the whole thing as one of its key recommendations was to fix education funding and that isn't popular with the Liberals core constituency.
Select to expand quotecammd said...
Let me ask you this Cal. If all government funding was cut to private schools would that result in a better or worse outcome for the public system given many parents simply couldn't afford the extra cost and would opt for the public system. I am sure the very wealthy wouldn't be affected but a lot of average families would.
Go read Gonski and you won't need to ask that.
Select to expand quoteCal said...
Kk, yes, Id read the exec summary and evaluate from there. Big difference being Gonski was a non political evaluation, Abbott is yet to prove he is capable of the thought processes that requires.
Cammd, I strongly suggest that as a net result the state schools would be markedly better off if all funding, direct and indirect, were transferred with the students. I suspect there would be a few exceptions.
And to be clear, I dont believe it is realistic to interpret my comments as being about elitists etc. I believe I have acknowledged there is value in funding an element of independent school education in Australia.
So when you say all funding you refer to the fees parents currently pay for private schools. Nice little side step there. How would that work.
That wasn't my question btw. The question was based on government funding being withdrawn from private schools the assumption being many parents would stop paying fees altogether and send their kids into the public system
^^no cammd, I do not mean the fees directly paid by parents. I mean funding from the public purse in all its complex forms.
Do you mean those big tax deductible donations they would cease to exist if there was no advantage to them being paid
Hang on cammd, you already suggested the super rich are the ones capable of making those donations and that they will just pay higher fees so surely you already made your own question redundant?
Yes i do realise government schools have fees as well one of my kids is doing year twelve through a government school.
Select to expand quoteCal said...
Hang on cammd, you already suggested the super rich are the ones capable of making those donations and that they will just pay higher fees so surely you already made your own question redundant?
Yes i did suggest that I was just checking if you included that as one of the indirect funding sources
Select to expand quotecammd said...Cal said...
Kk, yes, Id read the exec summary and evaluate from there. Big difference being Gonski was a non political evaluation, Abbott is yet to prove he is capable of the thought processes that requires.
Cammd, I strongly suggest that as a net result the state schools would be markedly better off if all funding, direct and indirect, were transferred with the students. I suspect there would be a few exceptions.
And to be clear, I dont believe it is realistic to interpret my comments as being about elitists etc. I believe I have acknowledged there is value in funding an element of independent school education in Australia.
So when you say all funding you refer to the fees parents currently pay for private schools. Nice little side step there. How would that work.
That wasn't my question btw. The question was based on government funding being withdrawn from private schools the assumption being many parents would stop paying fees altogether and send their kids into the public system
English teacher here btw. And I am afraid you are failing in reading comprehension. Suggests to me your ability to follow a cogent argument may a little weak too.
Gonski in small words and not many:
A) Private school students frequently get more per student than public school students,
B) that's not fair and further entrenches generational poverty with less opportunity for those most in need,
C) change funding, make it more equitable, give it to those who need it, make funding travel from school to school with the student not be locality based.
But I think an earlier post said it best hey? It's people's own fault if they are poor. Lol. 
Select to expand quoteCal said...
^^no cammd, I do not mean the fees directly paid by parents. I mean funding from the public purse in all its complex forms.
Give it up. He is the sort of character that makes these discussions impossible. Logic is smashed meaningless against a wall of obtuse ignorance.
The historical reasons for the emergence of the private education funding system we currently have ceased to exist a long time ago. Similar reforms to Gonski's recommendations have been suggested for at least 40 years but it is too politically difficult for politicians to do it.
Perhaps I am wrong but I try to teach my kids that the outcomes they experience are mostly a result of the decisions they make. But like I said perhaps I am wrong maybe no one has a say in how there life goes. Is that what you teach your students.
Btw Obtuse or not I am just trying get a more detailed answer than "Gonski said so"
If you saw the families I see you would have far more compassion for the children and the struggles they have to better their circumstances. Further, tragedy can cruel a family unit. Plus, many are simply incapable of achieving much despite their best intentions.
It's the poors fault. I get it. Everyone is in control of their own destiny. I get it. But you know what? Many are dealt horrific hands with which it is almost impossible to win the big pot. Why make it harder for them with inequitable funding?
Good luck to your children for being born into a warm loving family with a father who cares and wants the best for them. Many aren't.
And we are telling you how funding is distributed in Australia and the consequences of said funding. You then earlier said "Show me." Well do we need to go get the report and quote it?
Ps: I am done here. It is a waste of time talking to people like you about these things. No idea and no compassion. You people probably think Medicare should be axed too.
Well, as an interested observer with 2 kids in a public state school, I have done a bit of research and am intrigued by the firm assertions from many here that overall Catholic and Independent Schools receive more per student funding from the Australian Government than public schools....in fact these strong assertions seem to be quite derogatory to the one questioning it. I found this hard to accept if true and was about to write to my local member...but decided to research a bit first rather than blindly believe what is presented on a internet forum as fact.....
I have now looked at:
The National Report on Schooling in Australia 2010
Department of Parliamentary Services - Australian Government Spending on Schools explained 2011
The Independent Schools Council of Australia website 2011/12
and yes the much quoted Gonski report...
Every single one of the above gave clear data about all funding sources for schools and every one of them consistently showed that on average Catholic and Independent Schools (total non gov) draw between 50% and 60% of government funding per head compared to a public school...this moved slightly year to year, but was very consistent in this range.
Now I am sure there are exceptions and outliers and the process could be better, and it seems that this is what the Gonski Report is trying to address....plus get more money in total spent on public education targeting those that need the help the most....and I fully agree..
But - where are you guys getting this info that the government is spending more on Private school kids than public? I cannot find anything that supports this...anywhere, including the much quoted Gonski, which has data and graphs showing the complete opposite.....in fact everything I have read shows the complete opposite?
^^ youre correct, the direct funding, which is what is reported shows (from memory) roughly $12000 per government school student and again roughly $8000 per non government school student. Further reading however will expose a considerable amount of unreported financial support to non government schools in the form of taxation exemptions for instance. The main point for me is that it is totally unclear how much financial support non government schools receive and possibly worse is the lack of accountability for the associated spending of this public money.
