Select to expand quoteevlPanda said..FormulaNova said..evlPanda said..eppo said...
My specialist maths kids would tare most of you so called maths greats (because you can add and subtract simple arithmetic in your simple heads .... good in ya!) new asseholes when it comes to maths. They are far smarter and sophisticated than we ever where at the same age.
That they are. From my daughter's year 4 "matrix" test:
Who creates these things? These aren't about evaluating a child's education or aptitude for anything, they are just puzzles.
I can just imagine some genius writing these things and thinking 'wow, I am so clever, this is so difficult.'
....
I suspect by your response you are just avoiding the pain that is true problem solving (and missing out on the reward at the end).
Yes, that is correct. If I were actually doing that in a test, I would work it out and get it. In this case, it just hurts my head to think about it. Just for perspective, I am one of those weirdos that actually likes doing maths in my head instead of reaching for a calculator or computer.
^ I've found, moving around a lot, that education levels vary enormously between schools. We can't just say "Australian education..."
calculator = GIGO for the user.
We need thinkers, problem solvers, not routine arithmetic morons.
I would presume most of you consider being able to regurgitate "facts" is also a display of intelligence.
We really are a bunch of middle aged and beyond kooks without a proverbial clue aren't we....lol.
Select to expand quoteevlPanda said..
^ I've found, moving around a lot, that education levels vary enormously between schools. We can't just say "Australian education..."
I was fortunate that I had an excellent maths teacher all the way from year 7 until year 10. He was smart enough to get everyone in the class to think through problems and had a knack of identifying students that didn't know and he would work through it with them.
We had a record for the school with everyone in that class getting the highest grade we could.
The head maths teacher seemed to have figured that we were a class of geniuses, so he pushed the other teacher out of the way and took over us for 3 and 4 unit maths in year 11 and 12. A lot of the old class dropped down after a few months. It was the teacher that made the difference.
The head maths teacher was one of these idiots that would tell us to work through examples on some pages, disappear, and then come back to mark them, which we could have done from the back of the book anyway. Completely useless.
The surprising thing was that we were in one of the less desirable schools in the area, which tends to mean a lot of good teachers leave for easier schools, except for a few exceptional teachers that stick around.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
calculator = GIGO for the user.
We need thinkers, problem solvers, not routine arithmetic morons.
I would presume most of you consider being able to regurgitate "facts" is also a display of intelligence.
We really are a bunch of middle aged and beyond kooks without a proverbial clue aren't we....lol.
Yes, one day the world will be run by robots. Routine arithmetic/common knowledge and sense will be an archaic sentiment of the past. Future generations will look back at us and smile at how little we knew.
These facts that you speak of, do the kids you teach actually know when/how to apply the knowlege you regurgitate to them? If you gave them a complex problem to solve with very little to no information on how to do it, would they know how and when to use/apply the complex maths to solve it?
Select to expand quoteevlPanda said..
^ I've found, moving around a lot, that education levels vary enormously between schools. We can't just say "Australian education..."
NT was a year behind WA when we moved up there when were kids.
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..
Routine arithmetic/common knowledge and sense will be an archaic sentiment of the past. Future generations will look back at us and smile at how little we knew.
These facts that you speak of, do the kids you teach actually know when/how to apply the knowlege you regurgitate to them? If you gave them a complex problem to solve with very little to no information on how to do it, would they know how and when to use/apply the complex maths to solve it?
Mathematics was never my strong point, cant even count to ten on my fingers [I don't have 10 fingers to count with..] 
but -
The tills in our country shop always balanced, it really wasn't that hard - although a few of the younger part time check-out crew really struggled,
Later....
When I was on the mines, I was designing blast patterns, which involves calculations including the density of the rock, the diameter, depth and spacing of the drill holes, the dimensions of the bench that needed to be broken up, the allowable vibration limits, the type of explosives available or preferred by the mine engineer, and the down hole and surface delay pattern needed so as to not mix gold/nickel/tantalum bearing ore with rubbish and assorted other explosives designy stuff.
Everything [usually] went kaboom as planned, 
I must admit sometimes the results were a bit more "kaboomy" than expected
Only real drama I had was stocktaking the magazines - I would stocktake before flying home, by the time I flew back the counts would be out by thousands due to my replacement shottie being dyslexic, our lacky being unable to barely sign his own name, and our site manager not managing.
Yep- our education system turns out some real corkers!!
I would have to go back through the blast reports and reconcile the weeks jobs to work out wtf happened to the umpteen thousand dets, boosters, buster, pre-split snaggers, detcord, delays and the bulk ammonium nitrate and powergel they reckoned they had used - much of which I didn't have in stock to start with.
Pretty sure I earned my grey hair from sorting out those magazines!
Captain Flyrock signing off
Select to expand quotesn said..Subsonic said..
Routine arithmetic/common knowledge and sense will be an archaic sentiment of the past. Future generations will look back at us and smile at how little we knew.
These facts that you speak of, do the kids you teach actually know when/how to apply the knowlege you regurgitate to them? If you gave them a complex problem to solve with very little to no information on how to do it, would they know how and when to use/apply the complex maths to solve it?
Mathematics was never my strong point, cant even count to ten on my fingers [I don't have 10 fingers to count with..]
but -
The tills in our country shop always balanced, it really wasn't that hard - although a few of the younger part time check-out crew really struggled,
Later....
When I was on the mines, I was designing blast patterns, which involves calculations including the density of the rock, the diameter, depth and spacing of the drill holes, the dimensions of the bench that needed to be broken up, the allowable vibration limits, the type of explosives available or preferred by the mine engineer, and the down hole and surface delay pattern needed so as to not mix gold/nickel/tantalum bearing ore with rubbish and assorted other explosives designy stuff.
Everything [usually] went kaboom as planned,
I must admit sometimes the results were a bit more "kaboomy" than expected
Only real drama I had was stocktaking the magazines - I would stocktake before flying home, by the time I flew back the counts would be out by thousands due to my replacement shottie being dyslexic, our lacky being unable to barely sign his own name, and our site manager not managing.
Yep- our education system turns out some real corkers!!
I would have to go back through the blast reports and reconcile the weeks jobs to work out wtf happened to the umpteen thousand dets, boosters, buster, pre-split snaggers, detcord, delays and the bulk ammonium nitrate and powergel they reckoned they had used - much of which I didn't have in stock to start with.
Pretty sure I earned my grey hair from sorting out those magazines!
Captain Flyrock signing off
Exactly.
its great that kids these days are able to absorb all the complex equations, but putting them into real world applications is where youll find the intelligent ones. Knowing math, the basics or the real complex parts, are only a part of problem solving, not problem solving by itself.
Select to expand quotehilly said..Bananabender said..
And what percentage of the school were in your specialist maths class?
I was demonstrating that a 13/14 year old could not add up four coins .
It is the ordinary citizen of the future (they will still be there ) the cleaners, nursing aids etc.etc. that will need these basic skills and they will not get them in your specialist class.
It will be comforting to know the nurse administering the medicine to us old asseholes knows how to mentally count.
I will not even go down the spelling/reading/writing route . I know not necessary but then again it's handy to know what your buying in the supermarket instead of relying on the pictures on the pack.
I know, I know , "Computer says......"
If you're concerned about the illiterate and innumerate, donate to organisations that help with community education. Or, better yet, volunteer. (The Indigenous Literacy Foundation and Australian Literacy and Numeracy Foundation both do ripper work.)
Hilly has provided the most valuable comment/opinion in this whole thread, in addition to being concise and to the point. Nothing more needs to be said.
And someone gives a paper extract written for the lowerst common gun fodder morons.... although the last is actually what I do think ... and I do this everyday.
But Classic and typical. Unless you've actually worked with kids day in day out your opinions are next to useless. You have no idea what you are talking about and the fact that you think you do, exemplifies your ignorance only further.
But most of you wouldn't even no how full of sh1t you are concerning this topic so there's little point in saying anything else.
Absolute rubbish, most of it.
Sounds like somebody's not happy that the others have found out that he hasn't been doing his job properly....
This kid is going to be in so much trouble with his teacher, because he has picked the side of the political spectrum
Straight to the gulag....I mean detention room, for re-'education'
Select to expand quoteevlPanda said..eppo said...
My specialist maths kids would tare most of you so called maths greats (because you can add and subtract simple arithmetic in your simple heads .... good in ya!) new asseholes when it comes to maths. They are far smarter and sophisticated than we ever where at the same age.
That they are. From my daughter's year 4 "matrix" test:
Funny because I will possibly fail for completely different reason.I would instantly try to find connection/correlation between the least expected items, then even find such for all of them, or skip traditional logic and instead of consecutive order or scanning will try combination of complex movement ( for example instead of scanning from left to right, or up to down - I would try chess knight jumps) .Your teacher will instantly put in IQ80 category, others above or around 300.
obviously in your 1 minute test , I will then waste all the time trying to reach that missing middle position.
Which becomes impossible in 2D so will attempt to organize squares in 3D space in such way so Knight could jump into middle block.Then look at the pattern inside with suspicion if short line is really shorter or maybe only in this projection from the top. When you look from side could be full size long.At the end I will forget about teacher request at all and think what is that is not a dummy teacher but Smart Alien from another planet did send you the same table to solve.He may use the same decimal system as we do and their writing is more like chinese instead or our arabic.So this squarese represent consecutive numbers from 1 to 9 we he want you to guess how this may looks like. The the question becomes more complex because you need to find the logic how Aliens do encode value using those patterns.
Select to expand quoteTonyAbbott said..
Many school teachers are very political, they are happy when their students preach and regurgitate scripture from the church of climate change.
But they will not teach them the difference between anthropological global warming and natural climate change.
They will not teach them that sea level change is relative to land height, that rising seas can also be cause by land subsiding. Or that in some parts of Australia, relative sea level is falling, due to land uplift. Teachers don't ask students if the current sea level is normal, or if there is even a 'normal' sea level. For many teachers, critical thought means agreeing with the Greens.
Most students think co2 is called carbon, teachers are not teaching students that there are differences between carbon, co and co2, so long as they keep regurgitating the churches mantra.
When some students were writing an essay about a storm that caused significant coastal erosion, I asked them what they think might happen if the seas rose a couple of metres. Their response was that we will all die!!!!! not increased erosion, or higher sea walls, or some infrastructure will be lost, or one of many outcomes.....just we all are going to die. Most teachers don't correct this type of ridiculous thinking, they just think 'great', the student 'understands'.
Many teachers are failing students in becoming informed active citizens and turning into mindless political drones.
Maybe only use big words when you know what they mean. Anthropological means relating to the study of humankind. You probably meant Anthropogenic. However, since the rest of your post is unsupported statements, it probably doesn't matter.
By the way, all the current scientific evidence supports the theory that anthropogenic climate change is happening and that the outcome is likely to be bad. However, a few nutjobs on YouTube disagree!
Select to expand quoteTonyAbbott said..
I love the smell of a bigoted, made up, pointless meme in the morning.
Crumbs, it can get like the last gasp at the cantankerous old bastards home here. Simply moaning on about things that you are good at and were critical when you were young (i.e. before electricity) is pretty pointless.
You're not discussing mathematics here , just simple arithmetic. Let's start kicking around some more complex stuff and see how that works.
The businesses, still mostly owned by old people, install technology that does away with mental arithmetic. No wonder this skill is not as fresh as it once was.
This is a good read on the problems our kids face. It is a long read, but worth it.
quadrant.org.au/opinion/doomed-planet/2018/11/why-our-schools-produce-brainwashed-dolts/
Interestingly the article states "How many teachers would put their jobs on the line by citing contrarian environmentalist Bjorn Lomborg....."
I was reading a teachers forum a couple of days ago and geography teacher stated that their students had recieved an alternative view on climate change from the science teacher. The students were told that there was much over-exaggeration and alarmism in regards to the climate science. Anyway, this caused a lot of outrage from many teachers, some just vented their outrage and disgust, other demanded that the science teacher has to be sacked.
It is a dangerous world for free and critical thinking teachers, most would have learnt by now that they are not allowed to query or debate the climate 'group think' if they want to stay employed.
Select to expand quoteBristolfashion said..
Crumbs, it can get like the last gasp at the cantankerous old bastards home here. Simply moaning on about things that you are good at and were critical when you were young (i.e. before electricity) is pretty pointless.
You're not discussing mathematics here , just simple arithmetic. Let's start kicking around some more complex stuff and see how that works.
The businesses, still mostly owned by old people, install technology that does away with mental arithmetic. No wonder this skill is not as fresh as it once was.
Riddle me this:
How can a student tackle advanced mathematics if they can't add up a few coins, which represent a numerical amount?
I wouldn't worry so much about the math, maybe teach them how to cook, grow food, fix a bike, plant a tree, do some woodwork, learn how to weld actually teach kids real life skills and let them taste the different areas of what's possible work wise those who excel at cooking may enjoy it and get ahead ten years on the varied career paths life takes him while trying to "find " what he wants to do those that are brilliant at cad or auto design etc etc May choose early that this will lead to a real life with a future.
at current it's 12 years of state induced brainwashing with the poorest social engineering that you couldn't dream of.
If you have accepted the programming and your parents are wealthy you go to uni, or alternatively rack up a huge heecs debt which you pay off till 30+++++.
So we create parrots with our education system.
I do however thank all the doctors for doing their time this is of value,,,, sorry but arts degrees and the like, are really an excuse for a four year spliff fest.
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..Bristolfashion said..
Crumbs, it can get like the last gasp at the cantankerous old bastards home here. Simply moaning on about things that you are good at and were critical when you were young (i.e. before electricity) is pretty pointless.
You're not discussing mathematics here , just simple arithmetic. Let's start kicking around some more complex stuff and see how that works.
The businesses, still mostly owned by old people, install technology that does away with mental arithmetic. No wonder this skill is not as fresh as it once was.
Riddle me this:
How can a student tackle advanced mathematics if they can't add up a few coins, which represent a numerical amount?
It's not uncommon for the brightest at real maths to be relatively slow at arithmetic. The average darts player will be WAY faster at basic sums, but usually rubbish at calculus. It's simply a matter of which skills you practice. Frankly, being really great at adding up a few coins or making change so that you can work at Poundland (where the till does it anyway ) is really not the major skill to be giving our kids.
Still, if giving young people silly sums in pounds, shillings & pence, yards, feet and inches or furlongs, perches and poles and feeling superior when they struggle makes one feel slightly less out of touch and irrelevant, go for it.
When I was a kid, we used to play a game where someone would go, for example,
(5+6+3+2+2)?3=66
And we'd scrabble for the solution - they progressively got way more complex than this. Completely pointless, but fun. We got really fast - for no reason whatsoever. It's just the skills you practice
Select to expand quoteRazzonater said..
I wouldn't worry so much about the math, maybe teach them how to cook, grow food, fix a bike, plant a tree, do some woodwork, learn how to weld actually teach kids real life skills and let them taste the different areas of what's possible work wise those who excel at cooking may enjoy it and get ahead ten years on the varied career paths life takes him while trying to "find " what he wants to do those that are brilliant at cad or auto design etc etc May choose early that this will lead to a real life with a future.
at current it's 12 years of state induced brainwashing with the poorest social engineering that you couldn't dream of.
If you have accepted the programming and your parents are wealthy you go to uni, or alternatively rack up a huge heecs debt which you pay off till 30+++++.
So we create parrots with our education system.
I do however thank all the doctors for doing their time this is of value,,,, sorry but arts degrees and the like, are really an excuse for a four year spliff fest.
That's fine if you want to be a cook, gardener or welder - although, apart from the welding, my parents taught me that stuff.
What if you want to be a writer, economist, lawyer, scientists, engineer etc? You're going to need a bit more than basic seed planting.
Do you really think that only doctors study anything of value? How would they get on without their IT systems, instruments, buildings etc, etc?
Select to expand quoteFormulaNova said..evlPanda said..
^ I've found, moving around a lot, that education levels vary enormously between schools. We can't just say "Australian education..."
I was fortunate that I had an excellent maths teacher all the way from year 7 until year 10. He was smart enough to get everyone in the class to think through problems and had a knack of identifying students that didn't know and he would work through it with them.
We had a record for the school with everyone in that class getting the highest grade we could.
The head maths teacher seemed to have figured that we were a class of geniuses, so he pushed the other teacher out of the way and took over us for 3 and 4 unit maths in year 11 and 12. A lot of the old class dropped down after a few months. It was the teacher that made the difference.
The head maths teacher was one of these idiots that would tell us to work through examples on some pages, disappear, and then come back to mark them, which we could have done from the back of the book anyway. Completely useless.
The surprising thing was that we were in one of the less desirable schools in the area, which tends to mean a lot of good teachers leave for easier schools, except for a few exceptional teachers that stick around.
How can we identify and reward these teachers? That is the question.
Select to expand quoteBristolfashion said..Subsonic said..Bristolfashion said..
Crumbs, it can get like the last gasp at the cantankerous old bastards home here. Simply moaning on about things that you are good at and were critical when you were young (i.e. before electricity) is pretty pointless.
You're not discussing mathematics here , just simple arithmetic. Let's start kicking around some more complex stuff and see how that works.
The businesses, still mostly owned by old people, install technology that does away with mental arithmetic. No wonder this skill is not as fresh as it once was.
Riddle me this:
How can a student tackle advanced mathematics if they can't add up a few coins, which represent a numerical amount?
It's not uncommon for the brightest at real maths to be relatively slow at arithmetic. The average darts player will be WAY faster at basic sums, but usually rubbish at calculus. It's simply a matter of which skills you practice. Frankly, being really great at adding up a few coins or making change so that you can work at Poundland (where the till does it anyway ) is really not the major skill to be giving our kids.
Still, if giving young people silly sums in pounds, shillings & pence, yards, feet and inches or furlongs, perches and poles and feeling superior when they struggle makes one feel slightly less out of touch and irrelevant, go for it.
When I was a kid, we used to play a game where someone would go, for example,
(5+6+3+2+2)?3=66
And we'd scrabble for the solution - they progressively got way more complex than this. Completely pointless, but fun. We got really fast - for no reason whatsoever. It's just the skills you practice
All good, but despite the eager anticipation that a lot of people have for it, we haven't reached the world of tomorrow just yet.
Basic arithmetic/mathematics should go hand in hand with the advanced maths, its still quite a relevant, if basic skill set to have.
The op was literally about adding up some change. Not much understanding required to the job. Its not about feeling all superior at all. Its about being able to function in the outside world we live in today.
They used to cover this level of mathematics in primary school, im wondering if thats still the case.
