Guys - I am probably newer to the sport than most of you but hopefully can provide some feedback on manageable volume for a typical 80kg rider. I started about 5 months ago on a 105l, then quickly progressed to a 90l I could also ride easily in 10+ kts. For the last 6 weeks I've been riding exclusively on a 75 liter Armstrong board and, though the first several attempts were clumsy, now use it just as easily in 10 kts +. I have not yet learned the stink bug and so rely on the classic knee start - ride for a few seconds in both knees racing forward then pop up. I can do this in under 10 kts though the wing needs at least some wind pressure for me to feel balanced enough to slog without falling. 75 liters feels way smaller than 90 but is just as usable in the same conditions.I would love to go smaller and just bought a 4'5 34 liter prone board but have not tried it yet. I am very interested in whether I could manage a 60 liter board using the knee start technique.
Well had plenty of wind today so could use a 3.8 on my 34 litre board. And up straight away. So its wind dependant for sure. That being said buggering around in marginal conditions has honed my technique.
ran into nathan today and he runs two boards - a tiny 28 litre thing for strong winds and a 50L ish prone for less wind. Thats all he needs at about 75kg with say a 5m. Harder to sink but the beauty being it rises much more easily in lighter winds. Of course hes more proficient than the average bear as well. Uses the usual squat method. Also ran into shannon larry foiler and he also has a 5 foot - 40-45 litre thingy to do the same thing and for the same reason
so i would say as long as you can just sink and hold it - it can work.
Select to expand quotegreg87foil said..wicka said..
I've recently dived into this rabbit hole in trying a board -20L and imo it's not worth it.
I weigh 80kgs and my daily wing board is my proper prone sinker 4'6 @ 40L I need about 16-17knots to get it up and going on my 5m wing. I then use my 77L 5'0 board in less than that and can get going in about 10knots.
I had the opportunity to demo a 4'4 57L board to try and replace my larger board but I found this in between size is very corky and unstable. There's too much volume to sink it properly like my prone board and it's considerably less stable than my 77L board. After a few sessions I got the starts nailed, I had to completely change my technique. I found the best way to start was to have one knee on the board and sit on my foot with my other leg in the water next to my mast for stability. Once I had the wing up it was simple to get the other knee up and get going but I still needed 14-15knots to achieve this. Any less and I would sink down to my knees and there would be too much drag to get me going. So imo to gain an extra 2 knots on the low end really wasn't worth it. I would much prefer my thinner prone board that feels way more connected to the foil when riding.
Depending on what low end of the wind range you want to ride in it might be worth it if you only ride in 15+ knots or have a big 6m wing. Your body weight also has a big part in it. If I only weighed 60-70kgs I would be able to get up in about 12knots.
This is super helpful info, I'm staring down the same rabbit hole at the moment ;-P
I think id only feel comfortable going out on my 35L above 20kts right now, but ideally a bit more, so first question would be: (1) any tips for getting board up to surface in only 16-17kts? I'm exactly your weight btw, but my sinker is 5L less.
Still I would like to reduce the size of my "big board" from a 90L to something smaller. And I hear ya that perhaps it's better to get something in the 75L range rather than 60L range. Second question would be then: (2) how much noticeable difference will I see from going from 90L to 75L? Would than be worth it you think?
Getting up in 16-17 knots comes down to mostly water time. Stay as crouched down as possible to keep the board as close to the surface as possible. Wait for a good gust then really pull hard on the wing when it's full of wind to get you up to the surface of the water. Once your boards on top of the water I find it's easier that any larger board as there's less surface area and it releases from the water really easy. This is for a proper sinker about half your weight and squat method.
if your sinker is only -5L I wouldn't really call it a sinker it's closer to equal your weight and you should be able to get going with the normal stink bud or what we it's called quiet easily. Even down to about 10-12 knots. I found going from 90L to 75L way better and 100% Worth it! maybe 1 session to adjust to the volume change and not much more difficult to get up and going once your use to the slight less stability. It also depends on what your wanting to do with the sport.
most guys that cruise around the bay and do freestyle prefer more volume for landing freestyle tricks and to get going easier.
myself and a few of the boys from a prone background much prefer to use our tiny prone boards for in the waves
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Well had plenty of wind today so could use a 3.8 on my 34 litre board. And up straight away. So its wind dependant for sure. That being said buggering around in marginal conditions has honed my technique.
ran into nathan today and he runs two boards - a tiny 28 litre thing for strong winds and a 50L ish prone for less wind. Thats all he needs at about 75kg with say a 5m. Harder to sink but the beauty being it rises much more easily in lighter winds. Of course hes more proficient than the average bear as well. Uses the usual squat method. Also ran into shannon larry foiler and he also has a 5 foot - 40-45 litre thingy to do the same thing and for the same reason
so i would say as long as you can just sink and hold it - it can work.
That's interesting eppo, what's Nathan's lower wind range in getting up on a 50L board?
I've spoken to Shannon before and he said his lower range is about 12knots on his 5m but he is super light and feel it would be the same for us to be using a 7m wing at 80kgs to get up in about 12 knots! Haha
Not sure will ask but he said he can get up in some pretty marginal condtions. But he thinks like me i suppose, too light whats the point. Do something else. I tend to just kite foil then.
watched nathan winging hunters yesterday in a howling direct off shore lol. That guy can boogie
Select to expand quotewicka said..eppo said..
Well had plenty of wind today so could use a 3.8 on my 34 litre board. And up straight away. So its wind dependant for sure. That being said buggering around in marginal conditions has honed my technique.
ran into nathan today and he runs two boards - a tiny 28 litre thing for strong winds and a 50L ish prone for less wind. Thats all he needs at about 75kg with say a 5m. Harder to sink but the beauty being it rises much more easily in lighter winds. Of course hes more proficient than the average bear as well. Uses the usual squat method. Also ran into shannon larry foiler and he also has a 5 foot - 40-45 litre thingy to do the same thing and for the same reason
so i would say as long as you can just sink and hold it - it can work.
That's interesting eppo, what's Nathan's lower wind range in getting up on a 50L board?
I've spoken to Shannon before and he said his lower range is about 12knots on his 5m but he is super light and feel it would be the same for us to be using a 7m wing at 80kgs to get up in about 12 knots! Haha
This is very interesting indeed.
So could it be we have three categories of sinker boards, instead of just two?
(1) True sinkers, let's say <50% body weight in volume (<40L for 80kg person), what would be your prone board
(2) Sinker+, boards that can still be easily sunk, but are not yet "corky", and slightly more than what you'd use for a prone (40-45L for someone 80kg)
(3) Corks, let's say 50-70L which as discussed don't offer much advantage over a slightly volume negative board
Then outside the sinker category, you would have your "normal" lightwind board which would be somewhere 0-10% less than bodyweight, so 70-80L for an 80kg person.
So perhaps as discussed earlier, category 3 offers not a lot of advantage vs a slightly volume negative board, but perhaps a category 2 does offer advantage over a category 1? I guess the problem there is (at least with me) I wouldn't want to increase the L of my prone board, so it would mean getting another board :P
Not sure if an obvious but not mentioned problem with 1.
today easy sink starting a 34l (im 75 so well
less than half body weight) with a 4.8m wing.
problem - the wind that was strong enough to pull my fat ass out of the water was then too strong to stay upwind and ride all the great waves on the downwind run from graveyards to wobiri.
also flagging out a 4.8m isnt the best either when on some decent waves. Doable but not the best.
meanwhile the other two crew on 3.5m wings were perfectly powered and they got wave after wave at each good peak.
another issue - sinking a true sinker you need depth to start! Lots of great reef grinds through the fuse 
.. Anyhow ive got access to a 4 foot - 45 litre.
so will investigate option 2.
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
Select to expand quotefoilthegreats said..
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
Gives me hope for my 27L at 65kgs. Just gotta get the balls to give it a go lol.
Select to expand quotefoilthegreats said..
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
For some reason the link wont work for me?
you doing this one knee with or without straps?
you in open ocean in the vid?
Select to expand quotefoilthegreats said..
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
Great video and technique !I've only tried my sinker once and it was not fun.... As soon as I let the nose out like you do, the board shoots out or I tilt over sideways. I need more practice.
Using an Amos High Flyer 4"6/39L for my 78kg. It doesn't have a full traction pad, just a pad up front and back. Wondering whether a pad or wax in the middle would help with gripping the board on my knees 
Select to expand quoteeppo said..foilthegreats said..
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
For some reason the link wont work for me?
you doing this one knee with or without straps?
you in open ocean in the vid?
Facebook was down but should work now.
Full knee start get up into straps.
Lake Ontario 2-3' wind chop.
Select to expand quoteAlysum said..foilthegreats said..
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
Great video and technique !I've only tried my sinker once and it was not fun.... As soon as I let the nose out like you do, the board shoots out or I tilt over sideways. I need more practice.
Using an Amos High Flyer 4"6/39L for my 78kg. It doesn't have a full traction pad, just a pad up front and back. Wondering whether a pad or wax in the middle would help with gripping the board on my knees
Full traction helps. Also squeezing the rear foot strap with your feet to stabilize the board helps.
Select to expand quotefoilthegreats said..Alysum said..foilthegreats said..
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
Great video and technique !I've only tried my sinker once and it was not fun.... As soon as I let the nose out like you do, the board shoots out or I tilt over sideways. I need more practice.
Using an Amos High Flyer 4"6/39L for my 78kg. It doesn't have a full traction pad, just a pad up front and back. Wondering whether a pad or wax in the middle would help with gripping the board on my knees
Full traction helps. Also squeezing the rear foot strap with your feet to stabilize the board helps.
Looks like you start on both knees? Or front knee up. then looks like both down again?
whats your sequence. How Much wind you had?
Select to expand quoteeppo said..foilthegreats said..Alysum said..foilthegreats said..
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
Great video and technique !I've only tried my sinker once and it was not fun.... As soon as I let the nose out like you do, the board shoots out or I tilt over sideways. I need more practice.
Using an Amos High Flyer 4"6/39L for my 78kg. It doesn't have a full traction pad, just a pad up front and back. Wondering whether a pad or wax in the middle would help with gripping the board on my knees
Full traction helps. Also squeezing the rear foot strap with your feet to stabilize the board helps.
Looks like you start on both knees? Or front knee up. then looks like both down again?
whats your sequence. How Much wind you had?
Yes, both knees. Launch wing get some forward momentum and turn legs slightly to the side. Front foot up into strap followed by back foot. Mainly concentrating on keeping the nose above water. Using Dart 4m in 15-20kts
Again plenty of wind sink started (squat) several times today for swell running DWinders in exmouth. So wind dependent.
Hand on heart i cannot see knee starting on a small prone in ocean swells easier than the squat method. Just insanely harder. Its hard enough on a body weight or Semi sink in those conditions with 25 knots coming at ya.
that being said when back at home i will investigate your technique. Swells to large and being well Off shore isnt time to experiment.
ps what is the width of that board you are using. ?
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Again plenty of wind sink started (squat) several times today for swell running DWinders in exmouth. So wind dependent.
Hand on heart i cannot see knee starting on a small prone in ocean swells easier than the squat method. Just insanely harder. Its hard enough on a body weight or Semi sink in those conditions with 25 knots coming at ya.
that being said when back at home i will investigate your technique. Swells to large and being well Off shore isnt time to experiment.
ps what is the width of that board you are using. ?
I agree the (squat-deep water start) is better with the right board and conditions.
I've done thousands of knee starts from my old 55L to my new 70L that I'm used to it. It feels not that much different for me on the 30L.
Board is 4'2" x 19.6" x 2.4" Vol:30L Slingshot Flyingfish
Select to expand quotefoilthegreats said..eppo said..foilthegreats said..Alysum said..foilthegreats said..
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
Great video and technique !I've only tried my sinker once and it was not fun.... As soon as I let the nose out like you do, the board shoots out or I tilt over sideways. I need more practice.
Using an Amos High Flyer 4"6/39L for my 78kg. It doesn't have a full traction pad, just a pad up front and back. Wondering whether a pad or wax in the middle would help with gripping the board on my knees
Full traction helps. Also squeezing the rear foot strap with your feet to stabilize the board helps.
Looks like you start on both knees? Or front knee up. then looks like both down again?
whats your sequence. How Much wind you had?
Yes, both knees. Launch wing get some forward momentum and turn legs slightly to the side. Front foot up into strap followed by back foot. Mainly concentrating on keeping the nose above water. Using Dart 4m in 15-20kts
How do you get to your knees? Do you hold wing by the leash or leading edge handle and then get on your knees? Or do you forget about the wing, stabilize first on your knees and then reel the wing in? Getting to a balanced position on your knees seems the tricky part.. Got 25-30kts coming tomorrow so keen to give it a go!
Select to expand quotegreg87foil said..foilthegreats said..eppo said..foilthegreats said..Alysum said..foilthegreats said..
Here is the knee start on the 30L: www.instagram.com/p/CUm3dBirF5J/?utm_medium=copy_link
It's much easier for me to get the nose above water using this technique vs deep water start.
Great video and technique !I've only tried my sinker once and it was not fun.... As soon as I let the nose out like you do, the board shoots out or I tilt over sideways. I need more practice.
Using an Amos High Flyer 4"6/39L for my 78kg. It doesn't have a full traction pad, just a pad up front and back. Wondering whether a pad or wax in the middle would help with gripping the board on my knees
Full traction helps. Also squeezing the rear foot strap with your feet to stabilize the board helps.
Looks like you start on both knees? Or front knee up. then looks like both down again?
whats your sequence. How Much wind you had?
Yes, both knees. Launch wing get some forward momentum and turn legs slightly to the side. Front foot up into strap followed by back foot. Mainly concentrating on keeping the nose above water. Using Dart 4m in 15-20kts
How do you get to your knees? Do you hold wing by the leash or leading edge handle and then get on your knees? Or do you forget about the wing, stabilize first on your knees and then reel the wing in? Getting to a balanced position on your knees seems the tricky part.. Got 25-30kts coming tomorrow so keen to give it a go!
I hold the leading edge handle or the Y-handle. You can see what I do in the second video.
It's similar to a standard knee start on a higher volume board but I am back farther to keep the nose pitched up keeping it out of the water. I am squeezing the rear foot strap with my feet to stabilize the board along with holding the wing.
As soon as you launch the wing and the nose of board is above water the forward momentum will create pressure on the board and then you stand up.
Actually those more nuanced descriptions make sense. Sweet will try tomoz hopefully.
Wow, rode my 90L again today, for the first time since I learned to start the 35L prone and about 4-5 session on it. Conditions were 20kts gusting 28. It feels sooo big, I don't want it anymore!!! haha
So now the quest begins for a new board, either (A) a sinker plus (45L-ish) or (B) a smaller light wind board, something around 70-75L..
Yeh greg thats where im at. Spent two weeks in exmouth doing 2-3 sessions a day either on a 34l sinkers - trying my hardest not to fall off and restart or a 90l that felt like i was driving a mac truck. Investigation needed.
crikey exmouth reef takes a toll on your foil gear lol!!!
Yesterday was able to ride a sinker board for the first time, while it's still fresh made a video about it:
Select to expand quoteArtemN said..
Yesterday was able to ride a sinker board for the first time, while it's still fresh made a video about it:
Good advice and video!!
Well ive never even tried to sink my 34l (same board as in video) on my knees. Board seems to just sink too much. But will give it a go - im hoping on my knees it lifts the board out the water more easily. Thats the only possible reason i can see usinf this technique above the squat start which is super stable when you learn how. I can squat in position for as lomg as i want leaning on the leading edge.
but honestly after doing several downwinders on the 34L prone getting on my big board now almost makes me cry with frustration on how
absolute dog sh1t it is.
Never really understood all the stink bug stuff, I use same knee start on my 75 or 45 board, and of course need the wing to stay close to the surface. Works in flat and choppy water, good and crappy winds. Pretty simple really.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Well ive never even tried to sink my 34l (same board as in video) on my knees. Board seems to just sink too much. But will give it a go - im hoping on my knees it lifts the board out the water more easily. Thats the only possible reason i can see usinf this technique above the squat start which is super stable when you learn how. I can squat in position for as lomg as i want leaning on the leading edge.
but honestly after doing several downwinders on the 34L prone getting on my big board now almost makes me cry with frustration on how
absolute dog sh1t it is.
we're in exactly the same boat 
awesome video thanks for the explanation Artem! Are you also able to do the squat sink start (like me here: www.instagram.com/p/CUYHlJeoL_c/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link ) and if so, how much do you think you increase your low end wind range by using the knee start you demonstrated?
Like eppo mentioned, the only advantage I see is if the knee technique is able to get the board to the surface easier (ie in lower winds)
Select to expand quotegreg87foil said..eppo said..
Well ive never even tried to sink my 34l (same board as in video) on my knees. Board seems to just sink too much. But will give it a go - im hoping on my knees it lifts the board out the water more easily. Thats the only possible reason i can see usinf this technique above the squat start which is super stable when you learn how. I can squat in position for as lomg as i want leaning on the leading edge.
but honestly after doing several downwinders on the 34L prone getting on my big board now almost makes me cry with frustration on how
absolute dog sh1t it is.
we're in exactly the same boat
awesome video thanks for the explanation Artem! Are you also able to do the squat sink start (like me here: www.instagram.com/p/CUYHlJeoL_c/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link ) and if so, how much do you think you increase your low end wind range by using the knee start you demonstrated?
Like eppo mentioned, the only advantage I see is if the knee technique is able to get the board to the surface easier (ie in lower winds)
FoiltheGreats might be able to chime in here, as I've seen his insta posts of knee starting is absolute sinker and reportedly less effort to get board to surface as a result. He punches the rear strap between his feet to keep an angle nose up.
Select to expand quotethe only advantage I see is if the knee technique is able to get the board to the surface easier (ie in lower winds)
Nail, hammer, slam. Yes it can absolutely be used in lower winds. It's the one start for 50% volume boards.
