Corky to me, is when climbing aboard, the roll center is too high in the water. You really want the deck pad to be "no higher" than flush with the water.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
Corky to me, is when climbing aboard, the roll center is too high in the water. You really want the deck pad to be "no higher" than flush with the water.
Interesting. I haven't heard that description before. If I understand you correctly would that mean that most downwind SUP boards would likely be corky to you because of the volume?
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..DWF said..
Corky to me, is when climbing aboard, the roll center is too high in the water. You really want the deck pad to be "no higher" than flush with the water.
Interesting. I haven't heard that description before. If I understand you correctly would that mean that most downwind SUP boards would likely be corky to you because of the volume?
Yes.
I think, part of the Frank board magic is getting that deck flush.
From personal experience with the wife's board, my board, and friends boards, when over volumed for a rider, they all struggle to climb aboard. My wife literally cannot climb aboard my 98 liter board. The board rolls toward her when she puts her arms over it, and she just slides off the 45 degree angled deck. It's funny to watch. But put her on a 68 liter, and it stays flat, down in the water, and she climbs aboard no issue. Nothing like that ever happened with old wide boards. It's a skinny board thing.
We all know from years of SUP, that sitting higher in the water causes instability, but what everyone is learning, is this effect is many times worse with skinny boards. You cannot cheat with more volume.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
Corky to me, is when climbing aboard, the roll center is too high in the water. You really want the deck pad to be "no higher" than flush with the water.
When climbing aboard a high volume mid length board just use another technique - a bit similar to how you would climb out of the pool without a ladder. Pretend your board is the edge of the pool, floating some 20-30 cm above the water level. Place your hands on the deck of the board, and push your hands down while making swimming movements with your legs at the same time. And then twist your body and sit on the board, with both legs dangling over the side of the board, or even better, swing one leg over the board in one go and straddle the board like you would sit on a narrow surf board.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..DWF said..
Corky to me, is when climbing aboard, the roll center is too high in the water. You really want the deck pad to be "no higher" than flush with the water.
When climbing aboard a high volume mid length board just use another technique - a bit similar to how you would climb out of the pool without a ladder. Pretend your board is the edge of the pool, floating some 20-30 cm above the water level. Place your hands on the deck of the board, and push your hands down while making swimming movements with your legs at the same time. And then twist your body and sit on the board, with both legs dangling over the side of the board, or even better, swing one leg over the board in one go and straddle the board like you would sit on a narrow surf board.
My wife does that. We always do that even with lower volume boards because we both are wearing kite harnesses with real hooks. Otherwise deck pad gets torn up by the hook.
Boards with sunk decks feel a lot less corky due to lower centre of gravity. Also feel better connection to the foil when up and riding due to the thinner board where your feet are.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
From personal experience with the wife's board, my board, and friends boards, when over volumed for a rider, they all struggle to climb aboard. My wife literally cannot climb aboard my 98 liter board. The board rolls toward her when she puts her arms over it, and she just slides off the 45 degree angled deck.
Interesting. I don't think I've ever seen or experienced that. Not sure I can really conceptualize what you're saying. Even with a +35l skinny DW board I just hop right onto it. Everybody is different though! Makes it bloody hard to share information on the web.
I wish I had a video of it. To exaggerate, to give you the picture. Image a tiny person and a big volume log floating high in the water. She just reaches her arms over the deck to grip the far rail, and then the log immediately rolls toward her. Foil starts to flip up. She slides off the deck.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
She just reaches her arms over the deck to grip the far rail, and then the log immediately rolls toward her.
That's the problem. Don't reach for the opposite rail. Just lay your hands on top of the board and then push your hands down and swim with the legs. The board should not rock from side to side while doing so, and you are not pulling the board towards you. Think of the swimming pool analogy I wrote above - very similarly, the edge of the swimming pool does not really move or roll or lean towards you while you climb up.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..DWF said..
She just reaches her arms over the deck to grip the far rail, and then the log immediately rolls toward her.
That's the problem. Don't reach for the opposite rail. Just lay your hands on top of the board and then push your hands down and swim with the legs. The board should not rock from side to side while doing so, and you are not pulling the board towards you. Think of the swimming pool analogy I wrote above - very similarly, the edge of the swimming pool does not really move or roll or lean towards you while you climb up.
Agreed, I'm always pushing the board straight down. I'm guessing that those rigid kite hooks are making you all move a little different onto the board and that's why it's giving you trouble.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..DWF said..
She just reaches her arms over the deck to grip the far rail, and then the log immediately rolls toward her.
That's the problem. Don't reach for the opposite rail. Just lay your hands on top of the board and then push your hands down and swim with the legs. The board should not rock from side to side while doing so, and you are not pulling the board towards you. Think of the swimming pool analogy I wrote above - very similarly, the edge of the swimming pool does not really move or roll or lean towards you while you climb up.
She is able to do exactly that when the board isn't floating 5 inches high in the water. She is 70 years old.
Funny that you guys are arguing something so silly. Try up size something the size of a prone by 35l over your weight if you wish to see the corky effect at the extreme. A dw board at 35l over barely sits above the water in comparison. Of course oversizing boards gets worse as the boards get shorter and narrower, it is very simple physics and ml boards are most likely to cause this as people size them like their much wider wing boards.
less area to spread the excess volume over = corky.
My mid length is 30 liters over volume for her weight. So to duplicate for me, I'd be trying to climb aboard a 130 liter mid length. That would make my board almost 8 inches thick to hit 130 liters! Imagine a board 19.75 wide and 8 inches thick. What a **** show!
For 40 years I've been extrapolating what works for me, to what works for a small wife. You have to make it easy for the wife, if you want them to join you in everything.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
My mid length is 30 liters over volume for her weight. So to duplicate for me, I'd be trying to climb aboard a 130 liter mid length. That would make my board almost 8 inches thick to hit 130 liters! Imagine a board 19.75 wide and 8 inches thick. What a **** show!
For 40 years I've been extrapolating what works for me, to what works for a small wife. You have to make it easy for the wife, if you want them to join you in everything.
Has she tried a buoyancy vest or pfd? her shoulders would be at deck height.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
My mid length is 30 liters over volume for her weight. So to duplicate for me, I'd be trying to climb aboard a 130 liter mid length. That would make my board almost 8 inches thick to hit 130 liters! Imagine a board 19.75 wide and 8 inches thick. What a **** show!
130 litres and 19.75 wide and 8 inches thick - are you sure that you are still talking about mid lengths?
The big mid length board that I often use (120 L) is 50 litres above my weight in kg, it does not feel corky at all, and the deck is actually not that much over the water level.
But more importantly, it still rides like a much smaller board and allows using nice and small foils on some pretty light days with unreliable wind. Keeping the volume in the center of the board (i.e. where you stand), and not moving it away towards the nose and the tail, has a positive side effect - it helps to keep even fairly big volume boards agile and very responsive and quicker from rail to rail, and more fun to ride. Not even close to a "**** show", as you wrote.
I've shaped tons of mid lengths, starting with a 5'5 3 years ago, then 6'2s, then 6'4s, 6'7s and 6'8s. This allowed me to try everything and kept me one year ahead of production brands. Tried every width too.
We still see examples of production mids that are too wide. Some have yet to expand beyond very short mids. There is still a lot of range that has not made it into production boards.
Even the rockers of many production mids are out of date. You just wait until the Frank board mids arrive. You'll see any other wave of production board updates.
Width is a funny one. Went to 19 inch and found some gains. Just went back to 22 inch and enjoyed the stability did not notice any down sides. Recessed deck made more difference.
yeah, I went too skinny too. I found around 20 wide the easy sweet spot between performance and stability.
I think I saw a 26 production Duotone mid length much skinnier than the 25. I thought the 25s were too wide, but probably sold really well because so many are still afraid to make the switch. Hope they added a little length when going skinnier. That makes it better.
I've been riding my soap bar Cabrihna Code for 3+ years now. 2022 model, 5'0" x 25" x 4.5", 78 liter. Probably close to a record for time spent riding the same board
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Finally tested out a mid length two weeks ago. AK Nomad, 6'2" x 20" x 4.8", 75 liter. I'm 75 kg/183cm. Some re-adjusting on the getting-up technique as discussed/debated here, but overall I liked it and bought one. A bit late to the party but all good.
Video of my first test ride if you're interested. Just a basic old guy light wind session.
Another element worth noting as folks move to the midlengths is the deck shape and deck pad positioning. A very subtle wide spread concave is really valuable when you go below 20". Nothing so extreme that you can see it visually (I'm thinking of the Armstrong concaves here). You should simply feel it underfoot (like the Sunova Pilot) and it gives you more command over the boards below 20". Also, I personally, really want the deck pad to go all the way to the edge of the deck on 18"-19" boards. On a 20" it doesn't quite need it but I do it anyway. On my 18" though my toes are usually off the pad when I'm pushing that board hard.
The mid length designs seem to be heading to wider tails like the original carver. This allows you to offset your back foot easier and gives you parallel rails for speed on take off. They really look like downwind boards with the tail chopped off. KT and AFS have cut outs to bring the foil closer to the feet. One top one on the bottom. The Smik has followed the AFS route.
I've also been thinking on the chopped tail design as I compare my -10l Carver and my +5l Aviator. The Aviator with it's pintail and positive volume seems to do well with developing surface speed for flatwater takeoffs. When I parawing there's always swell that I am using to take off. The -10l Carver with the chopped tail seems to get more of a push from the swell whereas the Aviator is sitting on top of the swell and trying to glide across it.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..The -10l Carver with the chopped tail seems to get more of a push from the swell whereas the Aviator is sitting on top of the swell and trying to glide across it.
Well described. I get the same feeling from the squared off tail in bumps.
I think Duotone Skybrid have got it about right and for my 85l version good volume distribution
Have the 5'10" 100ltr and love this board, covers all the conditions in my local area.
could be ideal size for anyone getting into parawinging. super stable, early take off and just a general all round fun board.
saying that, I'm keen to see the new Skybrid design for 2026.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
I've shaped tons of mid lengths, starting with a 5'5 3 years ago, then 6'2s, then 6'4s, 6'7s and 6'8s. This allowed me to try everything and kept me one year ahead of production brands. Tried every width too.
Can you please share some pictures of your designs, and video clips of somebody riding these? Because the way you described the issue with a 8 inch thick board, in the context of the boards being too corky, makes me feel that something is off. Mid lengths are about making life easier not harder. The super narrow designs may be useful in certain situations for certain type of users, but it's definitely not needed. A 22 inch wide high volume mid length board get's going super easy in light wind, there is no need to complicate things and squeeze all that volume in a narrow shape, which could well be the reason for the corky feeling that you described.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..DWF said..
I've shaped tons of mid lengths, starting with a 5'5 3 years ago, then 6'2s, then 6'4s, 6'7s and 6'8s. This allowed me to try everything and kept me one year ahead of production brands. Tried every width too.
Can you please share some pictures of your designs, and video clips of somebody riding these? Because the way you described the issue with a 8 inch thick board, in the context of the boards being too corky, makes me feel that something is off. Mid lengths are about making life easier not harder. The super narrow designs may be useful in certain situations for certain type of users, but it's definitely not needed. A 22 inch wide high volume mid length board get's going super easy in light wind, there is no need to complicate things and squeeze all that volume in a narrow shape, which could well be the reason for the corky feeling that you described.
The idea of a Midlength is to ride as minimal sized board that can get up easy. If you need something that much above your weight all good for you but your 120l is more a Midlength for someone 6'5 and 110kgs. At your size it's even too big for a sup foil board. It's boat size but everybody is different I guess.
I wonder how corky it would be out of that lake and in some ocean conditions.
Board stiffness is as important as mast/foil stiffness. Moving from the KT Super K V1 5'9" 19,5" 60L to the (Appletree construction) Omen Emissary 5'5" 19,5' 55L the biggest difference for me was how much stiffer the board felt and how this whole setup stiffness improved control and recovery from tip breaching and driving the foil around hard. Also if strapped an offset rear foot stance is mandatory for best control.
Select to expand quoteAnyBoard said..
The idea of a Midlength is to ride as minimal sized board that can get up easy. If you need something that much above your weight all good for you but your 120l is more a Midlength for someone 6'5 and 110kgs. At your size it's even too big for a sup foil board. It's boat size but everybody is different I guess.
I wonder how corky it would be out of that lake and in some ocean conditions.
That's the beauty of the mid length concept - the versatility. That is, if the shape is scaled up and down sensibly, not making it too narrow if the volume increases. If it's too narrow it just gets less user friendly.
If a 100+ kg guy (a beginner/intermediate wing foiler) is with a 8 m2 wing and 2400 cm2 foil and 120 L board, then I am with a 60 L, a 3.0 wing, and with a rather sensibly sized foil. Same conditions, same board model, both having a blast.
Select to expand quoteAnyBoard said..
I wonder how corky it would be out of that lake and in some ocean conditions.
It's not in the video, but the only day I have been in the waves with the 120 L was on that day, with a 2.9 BRM parawing and with a 700 cm2 foil. Easy, stable, super simple to get going, not corky at all. Right after that I used a 60 L board and 2.5 m2 wing and 680 cm2 foil in the very same conditions, here in this clip. Maybe your conditions are so much different?
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
Just FYI I kinda feel like the corkiness thing is just people who are off the balance point. We keep hearing this come up in boards for as long as I can remember but nobody seems to be able to narrow down what makes a board "corky" and what doesn't. My thought is that it's simply the balance point. If you are on that Super K and go for your water start with too much weight towards the back it will be easy to submerge the narrow deck and then of course, it will pop out from under you like a cork. This seems like a more common complaint with midlengths because of the narrow design being easier to submerge. More volume actually solves this in most cases because unless it's a custom, the board get's longer, widening the sweet spot so you can't initiate cork mode. However, if you go with more volume but no additional length the board get's tippy side to side making it tough on multiple axis instead of just the one.
So, I don't really think any board is actually corky, I just think everyone has different balance skills and experiences and it takes time to sort out the best positioning in the water.
I think this mostly nails it...corky (to me) is when buoyancy is a problem when maintaining balance/control on the water, and that could mean a lot of different things in difference contexts...
For instance, James Casey is often asked for DW board volume recommendations, and he often says that if you go over 1.4x body weight that the boards become "too corky"...and it seems the frame of reference is about maintaining balance/control standing on long narrow pointy ended DW boards as swell comes through...
