Requesting feedback on foil masts for next generation Cedrus!

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All I know is my cedrus clydesdale is great, Kyle is super helpful and always available and the customer service is first class.
Mike

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NordRoi said..
Is it a hard task to design a mast to please all, wing/prone/Sup/downwind/speed gps freak/dockstart foilers?What is everyone needs? More Glide? After that what are the most commun dominator?Was wondering also, what is the pro/cons to have like a constant curve vs a lower kick point in a mast? I don't suggest to have that but just wondering?

it is, in fact it is impossible. I'm not trying to please everyone, just trying to please most. It's just like the ski and bike world. Are powder skis good on groomers? Not really. Are mountain bikes good on the road? No. Foiling is no different, everyone has their own desired speed, feel, and flow. I think the 1st gen Project Cedrus was a good balance of weight/stiffness/speed/strength and now I get to turn the knobs a little to accommodate an even bigger portion of the community:) It's fun. Nothing comes for me, and increasing speed, which is a common theme, will have to come at the expense of other variables like cost, stiffness, and weight...

What do you mea by lower kick point in the mast?

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BayAreaKite said..

NordRoi said..
Is it a hard task to design a mast to please all, wing/prone/Sup/downwind/speed gps freak/dockstart foilers?What is everyone needs? More Glide? After that what are the most commun dominator?Was wondering also, what is the pro/cons to have like a constant curve vs a lower kick point in a mast? I don't suggest to have that but just wondering?

it is, in fact it is impossible. I'm not trying to please everyone, just trying to please most. It's just like the ski and bike world. Are powder skis good on groomers? Not really. Are mountain bikes good on the road? No. Foiling is no different, everyone has their own desired speed, feel, and flow. I think the 1st gen Project Cedrus was a good balance of weight/stiffness/speed/strength and now I get to turn the knobs a little to accommodate an even bigger portion of the community:) It's fun. Nothing comes for me, and increasing speed, which is a common theme, will have to come at the expense of other variables like cost, stiffness, and weight...

What do you mea by lower kick point in the mast?

Sorry BayAreaKite, I'm from Canada and everything is related to hockey lol. Flex would be near the foil, so lower than mid mast, instead of the constant curve. Not a suggestion btw, just wondering.

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NordRoi said..

BayAreaKite said..

NordRoi said..
Is it a hard task to design a mast to please all, wing/prone/Sup/downwind/speed gps freak/dockstart foilers?What is everyone needs? More Glide? After that what are the most commun dominator?Was wondering also, what is the pro/cons to have like a constant curve vs a lower kick point in a mast? I don't suggest to have that but just wondering?

it is, in fact it is impossible. I'm not trying to please everyone, just trying to please most. It's just like the ski and bike world. Are powder skis good on groomers? Not really. Are mountain bikes good on the road? No. Foiling is no different, everyone has their own desired speed, feel, and flow. I think the 1st gen Project Cedrus was a good balance of weight/stiffness/speed/strength and now I get to turn the knobs a little to accommodate an even bigger portion of the community:) It's fun. Nothing comes for me, and increasing speed, which is a common theme, will have to come at the expense of other variables like cost, stiffness, and weight...

What do you mea by lower kick point in the mast?

Sorry BayAreaKite, I'm from Canada and everything is related to hockey lol. Flex would be near the foil, so lower than mid mast, instead of the constant curve. Not a suggestion btw, just wondering.

No worries. I've actually worked on hockey sticks, and I know how slapshots work. I don't believe there is any benefit to flex in a foil mast, no matter where it is. Flex inhibits precise control of the foil wings, without any benefits like storing energy and releasing it into a hockey puck. All of the brands who claimed to engineer their "mast flex profile" have introduced stiffer masts in the last year because anyone who actually rode a stiff mast confirmed that it improved control and performance of the foils. Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns on stiffness, but that largely depends on the rider size/style/conditions.

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Grantmac said..

Velocicraptor said..
Stiff (S)
light (L)
low drag (D)
Pick 2

you should have three masts. SL, SD, and LD. You already have the SL. Don't worry about infinite adaptability.
Keep it up. Love what you are doing. my $0.02 from the cheap seats.

Pretty much this.

But also I'd rather you move away from just bolting the adapter onto the flat end of the mast, that's not a great system.

Wasnt aware youve even used one Grant. Lol

I second everyone on wanting as little drag and as much stiffness as possible and agree that it's okay to sacrifice a bit on weight. (Although I do really like my featherlight NoLimitz when I have to carry the board). One thing that has not been mentioned which is something I really like about the NoLimitz mast is that it has no moving parts. A next generation Cedrus obviously needs to have an adapter system on the foil end, but on the board end I prefer a fixed plate. It's just less moving parts that can fall off or be forgotten. It would also be great if the mast could stay attached to a typical carbon board without corroding. That is definitely not possible with the NoLimitz due to alu/carbon, but it's supposedly working with new Unifoil carbon/titanium. Kyle, I know you really don't like the carbon monoblock mast plate, but I do think this aspect of less maintenance and ability to leave on board is a huge feature from a user perspective as long as it's not sacrificing anything materially in terms of performance.

I do own a Cedrus as well and one comment I have for the butt joint is that it would be nice if there was a female/male groove on mast end and adapter so that the adapter is always oriented correctly when the screws are tightened. Some of my adapters seem to have play where the foil can have a mount that's not perpendicular to the mast if I'm not careful when tightening the screws (This might be my imagination, so I'm curious if other people have experienced this as a problem.)

I thought this was pretty interesting: Unifoil surf foil team prefers the faster but less stiff mast, specifically calling out the extra drag being an issue for wave riding. 7:00 below

?t=415

Stiff (S)
Light (L)
Low Drag (LD)
Strong (ST)
- Pick 4 with a Mike's Lab ;-)

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Velocicraptor said..
Relating to this topic:
docs.google.com/document/d/10WBFH_4EdQAH116QgkvfjTx6ZNM8SqTgRcJ89zFfjAg/edit

I have nothing to do with the study, just found it interesting. Takeaway is that Cedrus is considerably lighter and stiffer than the Gong aluminum and carbon masts tested, with loading methodology similar to foiling.

Im surprised so much hate for the butt joint. Has anyone ever had a failure? Its simple, stiff, light and reliable. I have some complaints with Cedrus (although the benefits usually outweigh the shortcomings for me), but the butt joint isn't one of them and I fail to understand what the actual issue is.

FWIW The test rig in the above Doc looks flawed or bias based on what i see in the photos.
His other more basic testing method that you see on that forum looks more apples to apples fair comparison. docs.google.com/document/d/1cSzxgX9QSwvUyC2wql7uFOM1IYqEdjExvUkHLX_2nb8/edit

The way it looks in Vlocicaptor's Doc is, he has very long 6m screws holding the test plate to the mast gong mast, with maybe 2" of drop-in before the screws reach the threads. So I'm assuming there is some tension stretch of these screws in his deflection measurements. From what he understand the Cedrus mast was bolted directly to the plate.

The measurement point should be from the fuselage for all three mast with appropriate adapters, not from the mast on one mast, and the fuselage on the other. Also the test plate should be attached to the fuselage (not the screws attaching the fuselage to the mast).

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Cnski said..

hilly said..

Cnski said..with a Mike's Lab ;-)

Plus, tuttle only and no wave foils. Cannot have it all, Mike's are race only.

Mike's aren't race only. The ML 1000, 1100 and 1300 are mid-aspect ratio surf foils. They are thin and pretty quick but definitely not race foils.

Not how he describes them on his website, no mention of surf at all.

So what would be a realistic time-frame for this if you were to release a new one?
Would this be something to expect during the 2023 season or more a spring 2024 release?
Also by when would you announce which adapters might be available?

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Fishdude said..

FWIW The test rig in the above Doc looks flawed or bias based on what i see in the photos.
His other more basic testing method that you see on that forum looks more apples to apples fair comparison. docs.google.com/document/d/1cSzxgX9QSwvUyC2wql7uFOM1IYqEdjExvUkHLX_2nb8/edit

The way it looks in Vlocicaptor's Doc is, he has very long 6m screws holding the test plate to the mast gong mast, with maybe 2" of drop-in before the screws reach the threads. So I'm assuming there is some tension stretch of these screws in his deflection measurements. From what he understand the Cedrus mast was bolted directly to the plate.

The measurement point should be from the fuselage for all three mast with appropriate adapters, not from the mast on one mast, and the fuselage on the other. Also the test plate should be attached to the fuselage (not the screws attaching the fuselage to the mast).

The test is not biased. The test method is reflective of the actual loading conditions that a foil mast experiences while being ridden. This is my last post on this, but a mast bolted to a wall with a weight hanging on the end is a completely flawed method of characterizing stiffness. I know that's how many brands test their masts, but based on engineering first principles, it is wrong.

To answer your question, you cannot change the stiffness of an alloy with temper or heat treatment. Tempers, heat treatments, and annealing procedures are primarily used to change strength and ductility, but will not affect the underlying modulus of elasticity (stiffness) of the alloy.

I am hoping to have first prototypes available later this [North American] summer. I'm I'm in final design of the profiles, detailing the adapter interface, and preparing to cut tooling (molds). I will be up front and share that the Evolution mast will retain the modularity of the current system with respect to mounts. I get a lot of requests for custom mounts, and it is still ultimately a stronger, more repairable, better for travel, and cheaper solution than integrated mounts. I can't think of a single benefit to the the integrated or monocoque designs, other than marketing. They are not any lighter, not any stronger, result in more expensive processes, and not repairable when compared to a properly designed and maintained bolted joint.

Thanks to all who contributed to the survey. Stay tuned to the site and feel free to subscribe to the newsletter for updates on becoming an Evolution Cedrus launch customer. Also for those interested in the design and engineering aspects of Project Cedrus, I shared the whole process on my blog. It's a lot more technical, and accurate, than a lot of the stuff being posted on forums these days. Here's an example of one I did on composites and solid mechanics: projectcedrus.com/general/solid-mechanics-composites-101/

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Grantmac said..
Looked like a flat box to my eye, apologies if I didn't see something subtle.

A symmetrical box is definitely a major constraint.

Looked like a flat box to me as well... Maybe then better pictures are needed. Maybe..

There was no need to 'bombard' Grantmac with a resume of an Americas cup designer.

Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to the survey with constructive, positive feedback. I took all of the data and comments very seriously and ultimately ended up designing two completely different masts: Evolution Surf & Wind: projectcedrus.com/evolution-cedrus/

In short, Surf is optimized for lower speed/length forms of foiling like prone, pump, dockstart, and DW where glide is critical. The mast is 16mm thick, but leverages reduced chord length / wetted area to really cut drag while still being about 10-15% stiffer than the Classic. It is available in 70-90cm assembled lengths, in custom 2.5cm increments.

Evolution Wind is really geared toward longer length masts (80-108cm) for riders winging, kiting, or riding much higher energy waves (DW or Tow) where ventilation becomes a concern. Featuring the same 16mm thickness, the chord length actually grows where the mast pierces the water to keep the flow attached, and make the mast extremely ventilation resistant. It also provides exceptional torsional stiffness in the longer lengths, which was consistent feedback from the survey.

I hope you like them, and thanks again for all the feedback and support! Kyle

Anyone have seen any feedback after riding at AWSI?