Reading a lot about new materials and strength, which makes me think old materials aren't up to the job long term. just wondering what would the average life expectancy be of a wing.
I still use a 2014 kite (not often these days) and all looks good. wings seem to get a lot more stress and my year old one looks used.
are we looking at changing wings more often and accepting the fact they are more of a disposable item (not great for the environment). Just another ongoing cost to wing, making it an even more sport to participate in.
Right now most wings that had a good life after 1 year and the rest is borrowed time. That is imo like you also mention too short .But I also think we are in the very early stages of the sport and think gear will become quickly better and last longer.
Think about struts of alula and alike frame and X-ply/technora clothing in between. Unless you poke your foil really hard in it those materials can last easily 5y +
Downside: there will be a weight and price penalty, but I,m happy to have that instead replacing most of my wings each year.
The performance decreases after 2-3 month aka bagging out happens, no matter brand you pick at this point (reeding is playing with new material, we yet to see the longevity result).
If you have enough wind, bagged out wing can still do but if you need to pump hard to get going - bagged out wing makes it way harder.
At this point wings are like cartridges to the printer ??
Until the canopy "revolution" happens, I wouldn't get any of the "premium" wings.
how many hours use do you think we are going to get out of a wing , till it's not as efficient in the lighter winds?
Select to expand quoteArtemN said..
The performance decreases after 2-3 month aka bagging out happens, no matter brand you pick at this point (reeding is playing with new material, we yet to see the longevity result).
If you have enough wind, bagged out wing can still do but if you need to pump hard to get going - bagged out wing makes it way harder.
At this point wings are like cartridges to the printer ??
Until the canopy "revolution" happens, I wouldn't get any of the "premium" wings.
I 100% agree with this. I don't think theres much between all of the wings ATM. I have used/tested approx 10 different brands. I Wing alot, I like having a simple lightweight 5m, 4m and 3m and figured a cheaper wing that I keep for 6 to 8 months is the better than keeping a more expensive one for 12 to 18 months. It was Takoon for the last 12 months v1 then v2 and now I have just had an unreal deal on the v1 Mantis as Cabrinha have just launched their new range, 3 wings for the price of the new Duotone! The mad thing is Duotones new handles are very similar to the Mantis. lol.. I'm Joe Average and just need the wing to tow me into some waves... I'd rather the money went to the foil quiver..
Select to expand quoteIanInca said..ArtemN said..
The performance decreases after 2-3 month aka bagging out happens, no matter brand you pick at this point (reeding is playing with new material, we yet to see the longevity result).
If you have enough wind, bagged out wing can still do but if you need to pump hard to get going - bagged out wing makes it way harder.
At this point wings are like cartridges to the printer ??
Until the canopy "revolution" happens, I wouldn't get any of the "premium" wings.
I 100% agree with this. I don't think theres much between all of the wings ATM. I have used/tested approx 10 different brands. I Wing alot, I like having a simple lightweight 5m, 4m and 3m and figured a cheaper wing that I keep for 6 to 8 months is the better than keeping a more expensive one for 12 to 18 months. It was Takoon for the last 12 months v1 then v2 and now I have just had an unreal deal on the v1 Mantis as Cabrinha have just launched their new range, 3 wings for the price of the new Duotone! The mad thing is Duotones new handles are very similar to the Mantis. lol.. I'm Joe Average and just need the wing to tow me into some waves... I'd rather the money went to the foil quiver..
Curious how you find the Mantis v1 vs the Takoon v2. I just went the other direction. Mantis is an excellent wing, particularly in the smaller sizes.
I agree that a bagged out wing is harder to start, but once up on foil its not that big a deal. The bagged wing doesn't "modulate" power as well as a fresh wing -- Its more on/off and the upwind angles are reduced, but I find that your technique generally just evolves to accomodate it slowly.
Then you get a new wing and it feels incredible... but is it actually that much more incredible than the previous wing was when it was new? Hard to say what is the design and what is the fresh canopy.
Select to expand quoteUkWinger said..
how many hours use do you think we are going to get out of a wing , till it's not as efficient in the lighter winds?
It really depends on your "style" and board volume. For example, starting a sinker requires a lot more pull/pumping, so I'd guess the canopy stretches ~2x faster than starting a 60+L board.
..and your standards!
Some guys need new gear in pristine condition.
I still use my 1994 Gaastra as my main 6.0 windsurf sail, out of 4 others.
So it looks like this could be a very expensive sport with on going costs, cash and the environmental cost. The other issue with high costs is it restricts entry for a lot of ppl. One of the draws initially for me was the idea that was touted "one wing covers a huge range" when clearly like kite/windsurfing you need a quiver.
it's a shame everything we love has to cost so much, but hey it's addictive, coke might just be a cheaper habit though lol.
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..IanInca said..ArtemN said..
The performance decreases after 2-3 month aka bagging out happens, no matter brand you pick at this point (reeding is playing with new material, we yet to see the longevity result).
If you have enough wind, bagged out wing can still do but if you need to pump hard to get going - bagged out wing makes it way harder.
At this point wings are like cartridges to the printer ??
Until the canopy "revolution" happens, I wouldn't get any of the "premium" wings.
I 100% agree with this. I don't think theres much between all of the wings ATM. I have used/tested approx 10 different brands. I Wing alot, I like having a simple lightweight 5m, 4m and 3m and figured a cheaper wing that I keep for 6 to 8 months is the better than keeping a more expensive one for 12 to 18 months. It was Takoon for the last 12 months v1 then v2 and now I have just had an unreal deal on the v1 Mantis as Cabrinha have just launched their new range, 3 wings for the price of the new Duotone! The mad thing is Duotones new handles are very similar to the Mantis. lol.. I'm Joe Average and just need the wing to tow me into some waves... I'd rather the money went to the foil quiver..
Curious how you find the Mantis v1 vs the Takoon v2. I just went the other direction. Mantis is an excellent wing, particularly in the smaller sizes.
I agree that a bagged out wing is harder to start, but once up on foil its not that big a deal. The bagged wing doesn't "modulate" power as well as a fresh wing -- Its more on/off and the upwind angles are reduced, but I find that your technique generally just evolves to accomodate it slowly.
Then you get a new wing and it feels incredible... but is it actually that much more incredible than the previous wing was when it was new? Hard to say what is the design and what is the fresh canopy.
I've yet to test the Mantis 4 and 5 as I've only just changed but the little 3m Mantis is great. What sold me were the handles, I love the direct feel. Other than that I don't see alot of difference between the two. The build quality is better with Cabrinha but I have loved both versions of the Takoon and haven't any real negatives.
For me a well used wing is like a well used car, eventually lots of little things start to give, you loose a bit of mph, mpg and have more trips to get it repaired. For me spending less on "cheaper" or outgoing version wing and changing them more regularly suits me...
If you have a two wing quiver, they won't last nearly as long a 4 wing quiver. Pushing a larger wing into stronger conditions will bag it out much faster than sizing down to the appropriate size wing for the conditions. I've got 2-5M wings and I'm quite picky about which wing I run and really enjoy being fully sheeted in, none of that Mary Poppins stuff.
One man's month is another's year. I think number of outings use may useful info.
Select to expand quoteMidAtlanticFoil said..
If you have a two wing quiver, they won't last nearly as long a 4 wing quiver. Pushing a larger wing into stronger conditions will bag it out much faster than sizing down to the appropriate size wing for the conditions. I've got 2-5M wings and I'm quite picky about which wing I run and really enjoy being fully sheeted in, none of that Mary Poppins stuff.
Yes I agree , I now have three wings and like to use the correct size.
If I'm not having to pump the board and wing to get on foil then the wing is to big.
Select to expand quoteUkWinger said..MidAtlanticFoil said..
If you have a two wing quiver, they won't last nearly as long a 4 wing quiver. Pushing a larger wing into stronger conditions will bag it out much faster than sizing down to the appropriate size wing for the conditions. I've got 2-5M wings and I'm quite picky about which wing I run and really enjoy being fully sheeted in, none of that Mary Poppins stuff.
Yes I agree , I now have three wings and like to use the correct size.
If I'm not having to pump the board and wing to get on foil then the wing is to big.
Same here, i hate being overpowered.
I think i am a lot slower when i have a wing too big ,my theory is higher drag and that when you direct the lift upwards you take weight off the foil and you get foil control problems at slower speeds.
My biggest size is 5m and it is degrading a lot quicker than the 3.5m with pretty equal time on water.The pull on the 5m has shifted backwards noticeably, the 3.5 still balances as new.
For the cost of wings, it is disappointing how short their optimal performance life spans are. Between the wife and I, we have a quiver of 4 wings. The issue we are having is sticking to one brand for all of them, which is hard to do due to limited supply and our different preferences. I do hope that as the sport grows, these things will last longer. I've already written off some brands because their gear hasn't been up to snuff when it comes to durability.
The design of wings has changed hugely in 2 years. The early ones were slightly looser canopy. I had 2 year old ones that had stretched a bit but still worked fine. Lost about 15-20% of performance with a lot of use. Newer ones seem way tighter and will last longer I believe.
It seems there is more of a complaint due to the softening of the canopy.
So why isn't there something that could stiffen it up somewhat. Maybe some kind of flat cross struts. Or better still some kind of straps that can pull the tension of the canopy around the arms of the leading edge.
My concern is the durability of the material to the point of tearing beyond repair.
But as I'm thinking harder about this. Maybe interchangeable canopies that fit the leading edge & struts. Like once the canopy stretches it can be installed on a bigger leading edge & strut.
The easiest & simplest in my view may be a second much thinner leading edge bladder that can be tucked between the inside of the leading edge & canopy. Only to be inflated for the purpose of a tighter canopy tension.
OR. Maybe I will just pump my brand new wing to the lowest tension / pressure possible that would still give me the performance I want. The newer tighter wings just may make this a possibility. As it gets older then I will pump it up a little more until finally it gets to its highest recommended pressure. It may just extend the life a bit more. But I'm no expert.
Airush use a load frame in their kites to help prevent canopy stretch and damage in a crash. Maybe something that could be incorporated in wings for longevity.
airush.com/news/airush-innovation-load-frame-technology/
Select to expand quoteMutinykiterepair said..
As a kite repairer we can do a seam take up to make the canopy like new
And a Nip&Tuck job like that ,how much would it cost, ballpark figure?.
Select to expand quoteairsail said..
Airush use a load frame in their kites to help prevent canopy stretch and damage in a crash. Maybe something that could be incorporated in wings for longevity.
airush.com/news/airush-innovation-load-frame-technology/
Things are starting to change...
Leech lines.....
Well, in windsurfing, they did last from '85 thru '89.....
They were intended to add low end power into the bottom of the midrange, not exactly what we have in mind here.
An "load strips", like Kevlar, were intended to add more days of use, but in practiced seemed limited to keeping tears from straying along the sheer direction only.
Even "nip and tuck" might have only partial benefits, as the actual material is stretched already, giving little resiliency and feel over the wind range.
I reckon a nip and tuck is a great cheap option if the wing repairer knows what he's doing and can get the right tension. Sure it won't make the material newer and it will continue to bag out from there, so it's not about extending its longevity but rather improving its late life performance - I suppose not unlike equivalent human procedures.
The other option is to do a canopy refresh, or maybe just a partial refresh of the trailing edge combined with a no and tuck. More involved and expensive, but that will give it a new lease on life.
When I go to Cape town in the next few months I'll take my wings to Paul at second wind, possibly the most experienced kite repairer on the planet and see what he can do.
From a damage perspective winging is probably the worst of all wind powered sports. Especially in waves.
Kites last years. Sails last years is f you treat them nicely. Most kites are in a fairly constant state of power. Windsurfing sails well who windsurfs anymore..
Wings get stabbed by foils. Dragged over the falls whilst having a leash point loading the LE. It goes from full power taught canopy to flagged out and flapping ridden overpowered and pumped to death. Throw in being wet constantly and I'm amazed they last as long as they do!
Rich.
Select to expand quoteRichJam said..
From a damage perspective winging is probably the worst of all wind powered sports. Especially in waves.
Kites last years. Sails last years is f you treat them nicely. Most kites are in a fairly constant state of power. Windsurfing sails well who windsurfs anymore..
Wings get stabbed by foils. Dragged over the falls whilst having a leash point loading the LE. It goes from full power taught canopy to flagged out and flapping ridden overpowered and pumped to death. Throw in being wet constantly and I'm amazed they last as long as they do!
Rich.
Yes :)
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Hi - first post. Only came across this sport very recently and haven't any gear/experience yet, but looks unreal. It is a shock to discover, firstly, initial costs (likely prohibitive for me at this stage) and then to learn that the wings may only last a year (learnt this after calling a shop) and will deteriorate after only several months. Couldn't believe that. Expensive sport in terms of $$, but like the OP, hard not to think about the wastage as well!
Enjoying reading all the posts across many threads so far! Just trying to learn what gear to look for and see if there are any cheaper alternatives - I was basically told secondhand is a bad idea bc of developing technology in boards/foils, deterioration in wings and that I'd be looking at around $4.5k to get going I'm looking at it mainly to ride swells, small waves in Port Phillip Bay, Bellarine (Ocean Grove/Point Lonsdale). Bottom end of intermediate surfer/longboarder.
Edit: I also have access to a big SUP
Depends on your intended use, esp flat water blasting vs using the wing just as a mean to get back into the next wave (the latter is my most common use).
I have 5 Strikes from 2.8-6m (the 4.2, 5&6m are often being pumped a lot to get going), about total 400-450 sessions total combined of 2-5h sessions.
There's some bagging no doubt, with a bit more flutter at the upper wind range going upwind, a few repaired tears.
But they still with great, I can still get going under 10 knots gusts, works perfect in waves, softer feel, likely more like the Swing V2, but nowhere near the soft feel of the Swing V1. And other than colors, I don't feel the need to change yet.
Select to expand quotedrlazone said..
Depends on your intended use, esp flat water blasting vs using the wing just as a mean to get back into the next wave (the latter is my most common use).
I have 5 Strikes from 2.8-6m (the 4.2, 5&6m are often being pumped a lot to get going), about total 400-450 sessions total combined of 2-5h sessions.
There's some bagging no doubt, with a bit more flutter at the upper wind range going upwind, a few repaired tears.
But they still with great, I can still get going under 10 knots gusts, works perfect in waves, softer feel, likely more like the Swing V2, but nowhere near the soft feel of the Swing V1. And other than colors, I don't feel the need to change yet.
Interesting feedback - thanks. It's hard for me to talk about it bc I have no idea what I'm talking about, but my interest is in riding the swells/small waves (including in the bay) using the force of the water, while using the wing to get to the right spot and to create the speed to get on the swell/wave.
