This could make a big difference:
I said last evening the same to a friend in a chat. In racing this gonna be the way.
www.instagram.com/reel/CwiZXP4I6fj/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
We should get to see this in action in the GWA event this weekend, looks a bit more practical than the ozone
I am surprised it has taken this long to start seeing this development. I feel like Kai would have gone higher with a 4.0 or 4.5 in those conditions.
Hang gliders rushed into double surfaces, but it did not improve performance. This was 1979-1980 time frame.
Canopy tension improvements were a way bigger step forward.
Not until canopies can be kept tight under load, will double surface show it's true potential.
It's only a matter of time these companies are drip feeding us with the upgrades but I wish they would build the good stuff now right across all manufacturers
Select to expand quoteJeroensurf said..
In windsurf racesails the difference is huge..
But it wasn't huge when tried in 1985. I think we are in 1985 now with wing design.
We still have to solve mid span washout and tip twist.
Anything that will make the racers faster will be incorporated quickly by brands wanting their man on the podium. But as with windsurfing where the number of sailors who want or can make use of multicam deep luff sails is very small the disadvantages of twin skin wings may well outweigh the advantage for average wingers like me.
www.instagram.com/reel/CwnnC4YoWX0/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
15kt wind, 700cm2 front wing.
He is hitting 30kt ,not bad at all.
Looks so stable too. I've been chasing speed for a bit but came to the conclusion that to get much above 25 knots consistently you need a race foil setup, a wing like this on its own won't make a big difference to top speed. General purpose masts and foils are just too draggy. Top racers are hitting 35 knots with standard wings and MLabs and Chubanga foils, will be interesting to see what difference the double skin wings makes. A wind foil just hit 40 knots, I reckon we'll see wing foiling hit 40 knots in the next 2 years.
Select to expand quoteRelapse said..
Looks so stable too. I've been chasing speed for a bit but came to the conclusion that to get much above 25 knots consistently you need a race foil setup, a wing like this on its own won't make a big difference to top speed. General purpose masts and foils are just too draggy. Top racers are hitting 35 knots with standard wings and MLabs and Chubanga foils, will be interesting to see what difference the double skin wings makes. A wind foil just hit 40 knots, I reckon we'll see wing foiling hit 40 knots in the next 2 years.
I reached 43 knots with inflatable wing and skis on the packed snow. Most limiting factor was lack of stronger wind.
Select to expand quoteRelapse said..
Looks so stable too. I've been chasing speed for a bit but came to the conclusion that to get much above 25 knots consistently you need a race foil setup, a wing like this on its own won't make a big difference to top speed. General purpose masts and foils are just too draggy. Top racers are hitting 35 knots with standard wings and MLabs and Chubanga foils, will be interesting to see what difference the double skin wings makes. A wind foil just hit 40 knots, I reckon we'll see wing foiling hit 40 knots in the next 2 years.
35kt yes...but not in 15kt of wind.
Select to expand quoteSiksvan said..Relapse said..
Looks so stable too. I've been chasing speed for a bit but came to the conclusion that to get much above 25 knots consistently you need a race foil setup, a wing like this on its own won't make a big difference to top speed. General purpose masts and foils are just too draggy. Top racers are hitting 35 knots with standard wings and MLabs and Chubanga foils, will be interesting to see what difference the double skin wings makes. A wind foil just hit 40 knots, I reckon we'll see wing foiling hit 40 knots in the next 2 years.
I reached 43 knots with inflatable wing and skis on the packed snow. Most limiting factor was lack of stronger wind.
That was my point, foil/mast/fuse/stab drag is as big a limitation as wing aerodynamics. Probably more so. Like putting a slalom sail on a wave board. Least important is the board for winging if you're chasing speed. Hopefully faster more powerful wings will lead to faster more controllable foils so us mere mortals can hit 30 knots comfortably
The point is efficiency IMHO.
Yes,i agree the top speed is limited by the front wing...smaller,thinner=faster to simplify things.
But all the +35 kt runs i have seen on Insta etc ... have been done in 30kt of wind.Brute force approach.
I think that squeezing that horsepower from 15kt is the novelty here,AFAIK.
windsurfing suffered big time to that technology based on course racing and slalom. Hope we remember that. The fact that he can jump with a new type of wing...maybe higher...not sure we did not compared both type of wing...is that a big deal?I want to be able to ride without harness...flag when I chase swell...not having any tennis elbow or wrist pain.....and do I care if I break my fastest speed....not really!We don't need race or jump record to bring solution and innovation to the sport. Good marketing, it will just be wrong gear to wrong type of rider later.
Ken Winner (Duotone designer?) said he tried double skins (may have been on kite) but said additional lower canopy destabilised the upper canopy. Need to stop it filling with water too.
Select to expand quotepatronus said..
... Need to stop it filling with water too.
Not really. It just needs to not get heaps of water in and to drain out quickly.
Having said that, I think there's far more important fundamental problems to be solved with wings instead of adding more cost and complexity.
Select to expand quoteNordRoi said..
windsurfing suffered big time to that technology based on course racing and slalom. Hope we remember that. The fact that he can jump with a new type of wing...maybe higher...not sure we did not compared both type of wing...is that a big deal?I want to be able to ride without harness...flag when I chase swell...not having any tennis elbow or wrist pain.....and do I care if I break my fastest speed....not really!We don't need race or jump record to bring solution and innovation to the sport. Good marketing, it will just be wrong gear to wrong type of rider later.
That is a tired argument IMHO...the windsurfing industry did not lead the consumers astray,if anything it was the other way around.
Windsurfing suffered because we are proud monkeys that cannot withstand being overtaken.
The industry happily provided what the customers were asking for.
Performance.
There never was a lack of windsurfing wavesails and boards in all sizes if that is what you wanted.
Just like now with winging,there are plenty of lightweight, wave and freeride wings available.
Pick your poison and enjoy it.
Personally i am not interested in wingfoil speed records either , and 30kt spills must hurt...
Looking on the developement of F2 for example, in the 80s they had the Sunset, one of the first funboards i.m.o. Easy going, fast, good maneuvers... After that in the 90s came the Sunset Race, Sputnik and the Axxis, for me both really no funboards, faster but hard to jibe. Then in the 2000s came the Xantos and especially the wider boards from RRD (they were one of the first) and the fun came back....
In the 90s a lot of my windsurfbuddies quit, because they were frustrated.
So far my experince....
looks like this is a real contender and closest to market - looking forward to the upcomming races !
www.instagram.com/reel/Cwn34wzvyGX/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D
Putting the partial bottom skin on hang glider wings provided a significant improvement in lift, glide & top speed. Without a bottom there is an apparent bottom layer to the wing as air travels directly from the leading edge toward the trailing edge albeit with some turbulence. The bottom layer smooths this flow & reduces turbulenct flow under the wing.
It's very likely that a second layer on a wind wing would improve top speed at the expense of a higher stall speed. I.e Less power at low speed.
Select to expand quoteRelapse said..
That was my point, foil/mast/fuse/stab drag is as big a limitation as wing aerodynamics. Probably more so. Like putting a slalom sail on a wave board. Least important is the board for winging if you're chasing speed. Hopefully faster more powerful wings will lead to faster more controllable foils so us mere mortals can hit 30 knots comfortably
I've been racing the UKWA circuit a bit this year. The fastest wingers are on Mikeslab or Levitaz foils, but they all use a real mix of wings from old Ensis wings to D-labs to last years PPC... It is clearly the foil (and rider of the foil) that is the limiter... not the hand wing...
Select to expand quoter0d said..Relapse said..
That was my point, foil/mast/fuse/stab drag is as big a limitation as wing aerodynamics. Probably more so. Like putting a slalom sail on a wave board. Least important is the board for winging if you're chasing speed. Hopefully faster more powerful wings will lead to faster more controllable foils so us mere mortals can hit 30 knots comfortably
I've been racing the UKWA circuit a bit this year. The fastest wingers are on Mikeslab or Levitaz foils, but they all use a real mix of wings from old Ensis wings to D-labs to last years PPC... It is clearly the foil (and rider of the foil) that is the limiter... not the hand wing...
Only until a better designed hand wing comes out.
Select to expand quoteairsail said..r0d said..Relapse said..
That was my point, foil/mast/fuse/stab drag is as big a limitation as wing aerodynamics. Probably more so. Like putting a slalom sail on a wave board. Least important is the board for winging if you're chasing speed. Hopefully faster more powerful wings will lead to faster more controllable foils so us mere mortals can hit 30 knots comfortably
I've been racing the UKWA circuit a bit this year. The fastest wingers are on Mikeslab or Levitaz foils, but they all use a real mix of wings from old Ensis wings to D-labs to last years PPC... It is clearly the foil (and rider of the foil) that is the limiter... not the hand wing...
Only until a better designed hand wing comes out.
Yup, and the big leap is not the absolute speed .Is the speed relative to wind strenght
I would expect the upwind angles to be better too.
So not for me but i bet racers are perking their ears and telling their brands to get a double skin proto out now.
If these wings can truly deliver 30kt in 15kt wind they are incredibly efficient.
I agree that the speed is limited by the front wing size, or wing loading to be more precise.
But that is with almost unlimited "horsepower" provided by +25kt winds.
Squeezing that energy from 15kt requires a much better engine.
Select to expand quoteairsail said..
Only until a better designed hand wing comes out.
The good foils hit top speed in relatively little wind, and a more efficient wing cannot make a foil go faster, because it is the foil itself that is the limiter. Anyone who has raced will know this (or even tried to push foils fast with a GPS).
The slalom racing is downwind with no upwind legs so even the efficiency of the hand wing is not really used.
If there is a breakthrough in hand wing design it will be its efficiency in pointing high and remaining efficient, not increasing top speed or even speed relative to wind strength (since this already incredibly efficient). This would only be helpful in course racing ( upwind and downwind) not slalom.
Select to expand quoteRelapse said..
Looks so stable too. I've been chasing speed for a bit but came to the conclusion that to get much above 25 knots consistently you need a race foil setup, a wing like this on its own won't make a big difference to top speed. General purpose masts and foils are just too draggy. Top racers are hitting 35 knots with standard wings and MLabs and Chubanga foils, will be interesting to see what difference the double skin wings makes. A wind foil just hit 40 knots, I reckon we'll see wing foiling hit 40 knots in the next 2 years.
Agree on how stable it looks, but he is using a harness as well which possibly means that he can trim the wing more accurately. When we went to 50% double surface back in my hang gliding days, performance increased by a very significant amount, especially the lift/drag ratio.
Double skinned wing shown in videos earlier in this thread:
www.gong-galaxy.com/en/magazine/news-en/movie-full-tilt-with-the-pulse-dp-upe-aramid/
It's available for a limited time (31. oct) from $999:
www.gong-galaxy.com/en/product/gong-wing-pulse-dp-upe-aramid/
UPE Aramid - new material for the frame as well. Less bottom, more top-end.
Wondering when we will see UPE Aramid Neutra/Droid with new canopy material as well...
Gong rider Ratotti winning all 4 todays World Cup races - thereof 2 long distance - in Sardegna !
He states he has 1 knot speed advantage.
