Select to expand quotegeorgsurfer said..
KT SuperK 2, custom, no footstraps, 68L, 3.6kg, new sandwich construction which is significantly stiffer than the "normal" Carbon construction. Same weight but needs noticeably less effort to pump on foil. The picture is of the 85L board. I absolutely love both boards, they ride incredibly well (I'm 190lbs), come up ridiculously early (20 inch wide), and when you're riding it feels as if the board just isn't there. I agree w everything that was said here, the secret to these narrow boards is low weight and stiffness. Every pound or two you feel pumping and most of all in the turns. I've ridden the predecessor for over a year nearly every day and am surprised by the amount of progress (earlier takeoff, turns better, less board to throw around, more stable when standing still).
What's the new sandwich? all sandwich construction is stiffer than just fibre over EPS (if that's what you meant by normal carbon construction?)
all I can see is it seems to be 'new' for them to do full sandwich.? Not a new method of sandwich construction
which they have done for decades on their WS boards so I'm not having a go at KT / Quatro just question what's 'new'
You are absolutely correct, it is a version of their sandwich construction they have been using for windsurfing boards, but weight optimized for winging. At least that's what I've been told when I ordered the boards.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..aa212 said..colas said..
Heavier definitively is stronger, especially for impact resistance.
And impact resistance is very important with EPS, as your first dent will risk putting water into the blank that will never get out. (less risk with vacuum-bagged full PVC sandwich however)
So, in a way, production ultralight boards are kind of "disposable", as they will not be ultralight anymore after the first ding.
And Mark is right: you should look at the actual swing weight more than the "static" weight.
There is actually a way to get out even big amounts of water (but it's not straightforward for the average person, shapers using advanced composites should be able to do it though ) through vaporisation of the water under vacuum and heat. Basically under vacuum the vaporisation temperature of water gets lower (just as water boils at lower temps at higher altitudes). So put the board in a vacbag/ or seal only around ding (laminate opened enough) (you might need to airtighten the vent and/or also need to replace goretex vents afterwards), then add vac pump and heat (check vaporisation tables, something like -0.9 bar relative and 50deg-60deg Celcius should be enough, stay below 80deg C or the eps will start to melt). The water will come out as vapour and condensate in the pump, so don't let oil based pumps run too long with the water inside, they will need an oil change asap, maybe more depending on water amount and pump size. With a lot of water you might need to do it in intervals, opening the vacuum slightly to let air into the system which is needed for the vaporisation.
No. you can't get it all out like that
Would you be kind enough to add some reasoning to your statement? I am working on an engineering research project where i am drying civil construction materials overnight that typically take 2 months to dry in the air, so i don't see a reason why that shouldn't work on eps, which is way more porous?
^^^ Because
(1) I have tried every method you can think of and we never get it all out in a reasonable timeframe as the interstitial spaces in EPS are so good at holding it by capillary action
(2) if we do pull enough vacuum to cause the water to boil off, either
(a) too much vac and implodes the board
(b) enough vac but at a temp that softens the epoxy (so gets the above result anyway)
You cannot out enough vac on a board to reliably get water out at normal temps, without crushing the board. You can do localised vac only on a crack / hole and accelerate getting water out slightly - but no better than gravity does if that water is localised and there is a decent hole.
I get 100ml out of a damaged area in one day with a wick, or a few hours with a complicated vac setup and having to risk my pump.
You can apply vac at one end and hole in the other, as long as dry air is coming in, but you take forever and vac pumps don;t like running for a long time at very low vac levels. Plus the air takes the efficient route thru the non waterlogged bit straight up the middle and really does not help a lot.
You still don't get it all out.
The only option is keep damaged side down, make hole bigger, stuff a wick in it (paper towel etc) to help draw it out and put in in the sun and some breeze.
When boards have a number of holes and / or water has been allowed the spread over time, you simply cannot get it all out. Vacuum or not. I have 12 month duration projects that are testament to this and my workshop is 35-45degC most of summer.
I dont' mean to be rude - but your engineering material that needs drying - wrap it in a hard shell, give yourself a 1/4" hole and limit vac to about -10psi absolute max, limit temp to 50C
You overnight looks like a month. and incomplete result.
Select to expand quoteaa212 said..georgsurfer said..
KT SuperK 2, custom, no footstraps, 68L, 3.6kg, new sandwich construction which is significantly stiffer than the "normal" Carbon construction. Same weight but needs noticeably less effort to pump on foil. The picture is of the 85L board. I absolutely love both boards, they ride incredibly well (I'm 190lbs), come up ridiculously early (20 inch wide), and when you're riding it feels as if the board just isn't there. I agree w everything that was said here, the secret to these narrow boards is low weight and stiffness. Every pound or two you feel pumping and most of all in the turns. I've ridden the predecessor for over a year nearly every day and am surprised by the amount of progress (earlier takeoff, turns better, less board to throw around, more stable when standing still).
Cool, thanks for the input.
Would you happen to know dims and details about the upcoming SuperK V2 stock boards in both constructions?
Unfortunately not. All I know is that they are quite a bit narrower. I was worried it would be too tippy and difficult to stand up on but the new bottom shape is making the board more stable.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
^^^ Because
(1) I have tried every method you can think of and we never get it all out in a reasonable timeframe as the interstitial spaces in EPS are so good at holding it by capillary action
(2) if we do pull enough vacuum to cause the water to boil off, either
(a) too much vac and implodes the board
(b) enough vac but at a temp that softens the epoxy (so gets the above result anyway)
You cannot out enough vac on a board to reliably get water out at normal temps, without crushing the board. You can do localised vac only on a crack / hole and accelerate getting water out slightly - but no better than gravity does if that water is localised and there is a decent hole.
I get 100ml out of a damaged area in one day with a wick, or a few hours with a complicated vac setup and having to risk my pump.
You can apply vac at one end and hole in the other, as long as dry air is coming in, but you take forever and vac pumps don;t like running for a long time at very low vac levels. Plus the air takes the efficient route thru the non waterlogged bit straight up the middle and really does not help a lot.
You still don't get it all out.
The only option is keep damaged side down, make hole bigger, stuff a wick in it (paper towel etc) to help draw it out and put in in the sun and some breeze.
When boards have a number of holes and / or water has been allowed the spread over time, you simply cannot get it all out. Vacuum or not. I have 12 month duration projects that are testament to this and my workshop is 35-45degC most of summer.
I dont' mean to be rude - but your engineering material that needs drying - wrap it in a hard shell, give yourself a 1/4" hole and limit vac to about -10psi absolute max, limit temp to 50C
You overnight looks like a month. and incomplete result.
Boardlady was teaching this decades ago.
You need heat and forced dry air ventilation inside the board .Not vacuum.
I do it with an tiny,cheapo acuarium pump,two holes top and bottom.Plug pump in upper hole.Put board in warm place.
Water will come out by gravity first,then as water vapour.
Bigger pump will be faster, but running an oil lubed vac pump for days is not brilliant IMHO.
You can remove pretty much all the water,a few grams may remain and the salt stays of course.
Man I hate EPS. I thought I was just an idiot because I couldn't dry out and properly repair my EPS boards (also pinholes in laminating made my EPS-boards crap) so I started buying $300 solid PVC blanks out of frustration!
Really excited about starboard's hollow tech coming out soon. I think for boards under 40L solid PVC foam is still the ticket even at 3lb per cubic foot density that i use(sorry everyone who doesn't measure in hamburgers per bald eagle). Solid PVC is light enough and indestructible, stays stiff forever, and I don't care about dings.
I think that PVC foam Appletree uses is a little
lighter density than 3lbs which is the Best method for mid size boards between 40-80 liters and hollow is probably the winner 80+
Select to expand quoteTuberiderG said..
@Kalevi
Maybe you'll find what you're looking for here:
www.airinside.ch
-> 70 liter board = 3,5 kg.
They are just starting out, but have gained some experience with Formula windsurf boards - there is also a video on YouTube where someone hits the board with a windsurf fin...
I haven't found any testimonials anywhere. But the weight is sensational !
Hi, thanks for all the comments! I ended up ordering production board, the Airinside Superfly 4'11 72L 3,7kg board. Here are my first impressions of the board. It's so light that I decided to order it with foot straps after all.
So the construction is the same as the Patrik board? You can toss it around and shouldn't be damaged?
I would also like to know as they don't say on their website. Lots of marketing BS words but don't tell us how it's done. however surely there's some involvement from Patrik - I can't see a big windsurf company just taking another ones model name lol (Airinside)
I'd like to know if it's still honeycomb but given they say autoclaved it would have to be .. Core foams won't like 170c. Could be end grain balsa core as that's bloody amazing and can outperform honeycomb in some ways .. But would suck a bit in a skin rupture
regardkess- if Flikka and/or Patrik are into it, it will be very very good
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
I would also like to know as they don't say on their website. Lots of marketing BS words but don't tell us how it's done. however surely there's some involvement from Patrik - I can't see a big windsurf company just taking another ones model name lol (Airinside)
I'd like to know if it's still honeycomb but given they say autoclaved it would have to be .. Core foams won't like 170c
regardkess- if Flikka and/or Patrik are into it, it will be very very good
At $4k I assume its filled with Helium... 
I expected that sorts price. 'Normal' windsurf is high 3000's now
and this is a far harder build with expensive tooling
winging has been so far fairly lucky with pricing in sandwich boards but lots of rubbish at the cheaper end tho
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
I expected that sorts price. 'Normal' windsurf is high 3000's now
and this is a far harder build with expensive tooling
winging has been so far fairly lucky with pricing in sandwich boards but lots of rubbish at the cheaper end tho
Really hard to justify the price. I did a quick inquiry to Airinside for shipping etc. General comparison of decent quality built boards. No Starboard, Naish, Duotone etc.
85-100 liter board / shipping / taxes / West Coast USA / USD
Airinside (Flikka) $3,000
KT Super K2 (Cobra Factory, WS sandwich) $2,000
Custom Build (Hood River Oregon) $1,600
Thoughts????
It's a totally different construction. It's far harder. Needs complex moulds and more expensive materials, plus autoclave.
it's like comparing how you paint your house vs oven baked 2pack spray job on your car.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
It's a totally different construction. It's far harder. Needs complex moulds and more expensive materials, plus autoclave.
it's like comparing how you paint your house vs oven baked 2pack spray job on your car.
I get that it is a superior construction. I just don't see many spending that much for a wing board outside of the EU zone. The process cost about 70% more to build (cost Fikka carbon premier (Euro 1318 / ex. VAT) board same size vs Airinside (Euro 2200 / ex. VAT).
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..
So the construction is the same as the Patrik board? You can toss it around and shouldn't be damaged?
At least, from the point of view of the valve, the board is full of air
Select to expand quoteZeroVix said..Mark _australia said..
I expected that sorts price. 'Normal' windsurf is high 3000's now
and this is a far harder build with expensive tooling
winging has been so far fairly lucky with pricing in sandwich boards but lots of rubbish at the cheaper end tho
Really hard to justify the price. I did a quick inquiry to Airinside for shipping etc. General comparison of decent quality built boards. No Starboard, Naish, Duotone etc.
85-100 liter board / shipping / taxes / West Coast USA / USD
Airinside (Flikka) $3,000
KT Super K2 (Cobra Factory, WS sandwich) $2,000
Custom Build (Hood River Oregon) $1,600
Thoughts????
In my case the EU. Board would replace my 80L and 47L boards, so from that perspective, it's affordable. This is stiffer and lighter than my current 47L. Strapless freeride in flat and waves. I haven't yet had the chance to ride proper waves.
