Select to expand quoteFoilAddict said..
In my experience foils ride best when the center of gravity of board+foil is in close to being in line with the front wing.
My theory is that since foils are very sensitive to pitch changes, the additional nose or tail weight added due to centripetal force when you turn will throw off the balance of the foil. A heavy mast adds tail weight, which must be countered by nose weight in the form of moving the foil back. This is a turn-centric theory and doesn't apply if you don't care about turning (pumping).
Sometimes when the box isn't forward/back enough I will add weight to the nose or tail of the board to balance it out.
Try it yourself! If you tend to breach in turns only, move the foil back. if you tend to touch the board or dig rail in turns only, move the foil forwards.
Ok,now i get it, i think... :)
So the heavier mast will require a more rear position to balance with your very own KDmaui method :)
Does adding G forces (turning) change that (static) balance a lot ?.
In theory it should not change much (higher loading=bigger AOA= c of pressure shifts forward a little bit) but maybe i am missing something.
Thx for your input!.
Select to expand quoteFoilWays said..JohnnyTsunami said..
That's a separate discussion to the box location and the mast position relative to the foil. For any position of anything you will have issues of too much / too little lift at different speeds. Especially as you fine tune your gear.
Manufacturers should have the average rider with the same brand foil in the middle of the box and have the board balanced at slog in the middle footstrap position, as well as on foil at the average speed. If they don't, they screwed up or they're making room for other brands to use the other end of the box, etc. I.e. if you have your feet all the way forward on a slog with all your weight on your front foot to keep the board from sinking on the tail and then on foil you are balanced they messed up.
By the way... I saw a North Seek board at our local beach with a Fanatic/Duotone foil on it. I took the time to measure it as I was interested in that board for myself... but looking at the photos, I felt the box was too far forward in relation to the rear strap inserts to work with my Axis foil. I proved that with the measurements I did. I would not be happy with that board as I wouldn't be able to put my foil far back enough.
Anyway, my point is THAT board has a new Fanatic/Duotone foil it. If it's riding well with that it tells me that for 2023, that's why they've changed the position of the boxes... to better accommodate the geometry of their own foils.
It seems a lot of brands and manufacturers have been following the trend set by Armstrong (and I think also F-One) and are designing their foils around a more forward geometry. Now I've found that North and Fanatic are doing the same. Axis is different and I wonder about Sabfoil?
I think there's a few things going on causing the foil tracks to be more forward:
1) Manufacturers have realised that you want the foot straps placed in a position when the board floats in a balanced way when slogging. Early designs seemed to be based on windsurf designs with the foot straps much further back than this position. Windsurfers only move their feet back once they get planing.
2) As people get more experienced with foiling they want more front foot pressure in normal flight so they can really crank on the rear foot pressure for gybes, jumping, carving, pumping, etc. Two years ago nearly everyone was a beginner and wasn't ready for a more front foot biased setup. Surfers and windsurfers are used to massive back foot pressure so it takes a while to adjust.
3) Wide span, high aspect foils are more difficult to turn. Moving the wing back close to the mast helps them turn better, i.e. centre of lift is moving backwards relative to the mast. Some of the SABFoil HA aspect fuselages have the front wing just in front of the mast. Axis seem to be doing this with some of their fuselages too.
Select to expand quotesimonp65 said..FoilWays said..JohnnyTsunami said..
That's a separate discussion to the box location and the mast position relative to the foil. For any position of anything you will have issues of too much / too little lift at different speeds. Especially as you fine tune your gear.
Manufacturers should have the average rider with the same brand foil in the middle of the box and have the board balanced at slog in the middle footstrap position, as well as on foil at the average speed. If they don't, they screwed up or they're making room for other brands to use the other end of the box, etc. I.e. if you have your feet all the way forward on a slog with all your weight on your front foot to keep the board from sinking on the tail and then on foil you are balanced they messed up.
By the way... I saw a North Seek board at our local beach with a Fanatic/Duotone foil on it. I took the time to measure it as I was interested in that board for myself... but looking at the photos, I felt the box was too far forward in relation to the rear strap inserts to work with my Axis foil. I proved that with the measurements I did. I would not be happy with that board as I wouldn't be able to put my foil far back enough.
Anyway, my point is THAT board has a new Fanatic/Duotone foil it. If it's riding well with that it tells me that for 2023, that's why they've changed the position of the boxes... to better accommodate the geometry of their own foils.
It seems a lot of brands and manufacturers have been following the trend set by Armstrong (and I think also F-One) and are designing their foils around a more forward geometry. Now I've found that North and Fanatic are doing the same. Axis is different and I wonder about Sabfoil?
I think there's a few things going on causing the foil tracks to be more forward:
1) Manufacturers have realised that you want the foot straps placed in a position when the board floats in a balanced way when slogging. Early designs seemed to be based on windsurf designs with the foot straps much further back than this position. Windsurfers only move their feet back once they get planing.
2) As people get more experienced with foiling they want more front foot pressure in normal flight so they can really crank on the rear foot pressure for gybes, jumping, carving, pumping, etc. Two years ago nearly everyone was a beginner and wasn't ready for a more front foot biased setup. Surfers and windsurfers are used to massive back foot pressure so it takes a while to adjust.
3) Wide span, high aspect foils are more difficult to turn. Moving the wing back close to the mast helps them turn better, i.e. centre of lift is moving backwards relative to the mast. Some of the SABFoil HA aspect fuselages have the front wing just in front of the mast. Axis seem to be doing this with some of their fuselages too.
All true. In regards to point 3, I did order an Advanced fuse, but at Crazyshort it's still shorter than my Standard Ultrashort. I'm thinking I want to settle on those, as it opens up more board possibilities not having to worry about needing the mast that far back. However, I do feel I might still prefer the longer fuse overall, so I might have to try the Advance Ultrashort for winging, and leave the Advance Crazyshort for prone.
As a newbie winger, this thread is interesting to me because of my older windfoiling foil I brought over to winging: Slingshot HG system with i76, i84, i99, (still somewhat popular I believe). On my 2022 Fanatic Sky Wing 125L, I have to move my foil all the way back in the tracks with the i76 which has a long "neck"--the wing is a long way from the mast. If I don't there is way too much front foot pressure--I'm at the front of the pad. (foil in B position) The other wings don't have this neck and so the foil can be run further forward. Maybe it's because I'm a newbie and my skills and foils are low level, but I wouldn't want this board to have tracks further forward. Maybe as my skills increase and I get some more HA foils I will prefer a foil further forward.
Select to expand quotemarc5 said..
As a newbie winger, this thread is interesting to me because of my older windfoiling foil I brought over to winging: Slingshot HG system with i76, i84, i99, (still somewhat popular I believe). On my 2022 Fanatic Sky Wing 125L, I have to move my foil all the way back in the tracks with the i76 which has a long "neck"--the wing is a long way from the mast. If I don't there is way too much front foot pressure--I'm at the front of the pad. (foil in B position) The other wings don't have this neck and so the foil can be run further forward. Maybe it's because I'm a newbie and my skills and foils are low level, but I wouldn't want this board to have tracks further forward. Maybe as my skills increase and I get some more HA foils I will prefer a foil further forward.
Mount the mast through the wing in the 'A' position and you'll have much better results and have the setup in the middle of the tracks or maybe at the front.
Select to expand quotekobo said..
Thanks for clarifying , I understand what you are saying now. I find that when I initially get up on foil I have a comfortable amount of front foot pressure, then when I drop down a steep section and get a speed spike the front foot pressure goes up mostly peaking at the bottom of the wave then it evens out again even at the higher speed on the flats and generally stays constant throughout any turns. Therefore the front foot pressure stays pretty much the same throughout the speed range ,so my theory is the only time it should increase is when the relative water flow angle changes and that's mostly find at the bottom section of a steep/ bigger drop when the angles change the most. This appears to hold true ,because when tow foiling onto larger rolling swells that aren't that steep , I'm traveling fast but the foot pressure remains constant. Interested in others experience?
Designers talk about this on YouTube. You should get constant foot pressure with speed, and if you don't maybe start looking at shims.
Select to expand quotekobo said..marc5 said..
As a newbie winger, this thread is interesting to me because of my older windfoiling foil I brought over to winging: Slingshot HG system with i76, i84, i99, (still somewhat popular I believe). On my 2022 Fanatic Sky Wing 125L, I have to move my foil all the way back in the tracks with the i76 which has a long "neck"--the wing is a long way from the mast. If I don't there is way too much front foot pressure--I'm at the front of the pad. (foil in B position) The other wings don't have this neck and so the foil can be run further forward. Maybe it's because I'm a newbie and my skills and foils are low level, but I wouldn't want this board to have tracks further forward. Maybe as my skills increase and I get some more HA foils I will prefer a foil further forward.
Mount the mast through the wing in the 'A' position and you'll have much better results and have the setup in the middle of the tracks or maybe at the front.
Kobo, thanks--interesting idea. Front wing closer to the mast; mast is moved forward in the box so front wing is in same location relative to tail of board. What should I expect in doing so? Does this act like moving a fin on a slapper board forward--more turnability? Does it affect lift at all?
Yes correct , it will turn better and also much less front foot pressure, you can use the B position if you can't get enough lift , but it surfs much better in the A position.There is also a 'C' position too for wind foilers with the mast track right at the back of the board.
I just had a session on my 725 with 60L FG Armie board with the mast at 6.75 on the tracks - just past halfway. It was about a CM further forward than normal. Red shim on the 195 tail and 50 fuse. Getting going was tricky to say the least. A few times I had so much weight over my front foot, my back foot came up off the board! Once at peak speed, just over 20mph, it felt completely balanced. Then when powered up and ripping S turns at a slower speed, I found myself really aggressively driving the board over the front foot at times, almost like a pig dog/drop knee stance to prevent stalling. Hard to describe, but it actually was a ton of fun - fully engaged using the entire mast to coil and uncoil. Conditions were small little knee high tightly packed bumps, wind at around 18 knts. If the bumps were bigger, it would have been challenging to keep in the water. I did breach-to-wipeout once for the first time in recent memory, so there is that. Plenty of tip breaches while skirting the rail 
