In your opinion, what is the best choice of equipment or combination for Light Wind (under 13/14 knots): Mid-Length, DW board, Big 7m?, 8m? Wing, Big Foil, High Aspect Foil, etc.?
I think the rider's weight and the location (ocean, lake) are also determining factors in the choice of equipment !
All your feedback and testing of different options will be interesting!
The best choice of the gear dpends on all variables, and depending on the weight and skills the 13/14 knots that you mentioned can already be considered as very windy.
In light unreliable winds and flat water you can't beat a floaty enough board, that gets you moving forward easy, even when there is not yet enough wind to start properly pumping the wing. 72 kg, 130 L board, 6.0 m2 wing, 2400 cm2 front wing in this clip. Not much wind to speak of.
Select to expand quoteFatben said..
In your opinion, what is the best choice of equipment or combination for Light Wind (under 13/14 knots): Mid-Length, DW board, Big 7m?, 8m? Wing, Big Foil, High Aspect Foil, etc.?
I think the rider's weight and the location (ocean, lake) are also determining factors in the choice of equipment !
All your feedback and testing of different options will be interesting!
DW board is my first choice for light wind. After that is in place you have options.
Yes, indeed, at 13/14 knots, it's starting to be quite enough to take off with just about any equipment, let's say under 12 knots.
Indeed, in the Light Wind, the volume seems important, and I have the impression that a board that floats well and doesn't sink (+15 to +20) is already a plus for getting the board moving faster.
I'm 1m89 and 110kg +, and indeed, a Downwind-type board for this type of size doesn't seem crazy to me and may be more favorable in the Light Wind than a mid-length.
As we discussed in PM,s as well. I,m 188x97/98kg, and prever a bigger wing (5m) and foil over the DW board. The current midlengths are soo quick to get going, the difference is simply too small for me to take the downsides of an DW board.
My V1 SuperK 6.5x22x92l combined with my AFS Enduro 1600 is with an 5m superquick up to foil. If that setup isnt enough...I rather go do other stuff.
Yes, Jeroen, we did discuss it in private messages, and in your case, a mid-length seems to be the most effective.
With a 110kg build and also an intermediate level on a lake with very unpredictable winds, that certainly changes things.
As I told you, I tried a 6'6 x 24'1/2, 124-liter Mid-Length board, which I really didn't find comfortable or stable enough for my level. After looking around a lot this summer in the light category, I noticed that in the light category, people (size +/- 85kg) in Mid-Length, despite having 6m? or 7m? wings like Ventis or CWC, didn't necessarily fly much earlier or more easily than others on "normal" boards....
The only ones who seemed really more comfortable to me were those on longer boards like duotone downwinders, who had a much greater ease in getting their board into glide and therefore taking off.
I'm also considering my options with improving light wind performance, but I'm wondering about the foil size. The obvious choice would be to get a large foil for easy takeoffs, but that also limits how fast you can go. With smaller foil you get more speed and apparent wind. I've sometimes been in a situation where I have good energy as long as I'm keeping my speed up, but after botching a turn I realize that the wind has actually been pretty light. So apparent wind seems to help a lot.
Any other thoughts on small foil + large wing vs. large foil + normal wing?
Select to expand quoteNaranek said..
I'm also considering my options with improving light wind performance, but I'm wondering about the foil size. The obvious choice would be to get a large foil for easy takeoffs, but that also limits how fast you can go. With smaller foil you get more speed and apparent wind. I've sometimes been in a situation where I have good energy as long as I'm keeping my speed up, but after botching a turn I realize that the wind has actually been pretty light. So apparent wind seems to help a lot.
Any other thoughts on small foil + large wing vs. large foil + normal wing?
These are easy things to figure out. With my wife, I upsize her foil for stupid light wind simply because she's not flawless with her wing handling. Flawless meaning a person who can maintain all her apparent wind speed throughout the jibe, and come away with almost as much speed and she entered with. She can only do this part time. I can do it flawless all day. It's simply a skills choice that only a rider himself knows. Not wind.
Select to expand quoteFatben said..
Yes, Jeroen, we did discuss it in private messages, and in your case, a mid-length seems to be the most effective.
With a 110kg build and also an intermediate level on a lake with very unpredictable winds, that certainly changes things.
As I told you, I tried a 6'6 x 24'1/2, 124-liter Mid-Length board, which I really didn't find comfortable or stable enough for my level. After looking around a lot this summer in the light category, I noticed that in the light category, people (size +/- 85kg) in Mid-Length, despite having 6m? or 7m? wings like Ventis or CWC, didn't necessarily fly much earlier or more easily than others on "normal" boards....
The only ones who seemed really more comfortable to me were those on longer boards like duotone downwinders, who had a much greater ease in getting their board into glide and therefore taking off.
Your experience makes sense to me. The more you weigh, the more length you need to be comfortable. You're a big guy who doesn't fit into traditional stock mid length sizing. Older DW shapes probably fit into what a nice mid length would be at your weight.
Ok DWF , For a longer board that's still really suitable for Wingfoiling, ideally I'd like with foot straps.
I was thinking of going for light wind with' board, 7' / 7'6 x 23'/24' and 135/140 liters, but I don't necessarily find many models available. I like the JP M-Winger in 7'3 x 24' with 135 liters or the AK Nomand 1 in 7'6 x 24' with 140 liters. I suppose that this type of board in these dimensions will provide me with stability/comfort, buoyancy and glide for the start while not remaining too long and bulky.
I call light wind from 5kn on flat lake water.
I have an Armstrong 8ft 11in x 17.25 in x 108l DW board which gains speed super fast with a 6.5 Duotone dlab Unit, plus the Amp 1750 foil for 5kn up breeze
If above 8/10 kn then same setup with Duotone 1350 Glide or if consistent moving to 12 kn the 900 glide.
I love the feel of doing 2 to 3 times wind speed in light breezes.
Me 79 yo today and 72kg.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..
The best choice of the gear dpends on all variables, and depending on the weight and skills the 13/14 knots that you mentioned can already be considered as very windy.
In light unreliable winds and flat water you can't beat a floaty enough board, that gets you moving forward easy, even when there is not yet enough wind to start properly pumping the wing. 72 kg, 130 L board, 6.0 m2 wing, 2400 cm2 front wing in this clip. Not much wind to speak of.
This is amazing lol
Select to expand quoteFatben said..
Ok DWF , For a longer board that's still really suitable for Wingfoiling, ideally I'd like with foot straps.
I was thinking of going for light wind with' board, 7' / 7'6 x 23'/24' and 135/140 liters, but I don't necessarily find many models available. I like the JP M-Winger in 7'3 x 24' with 135 liters or the AK Nomand 1 in 7'6 x 24' with 140 liters. I suppose that this type of board in these dimensions will provide me with stability/comfort, buoyancy and glide for the start while not remaining too long and bulky.
Why do you need footstraps in a board that big? Are you going to jump it?If you are looking for a light wind performance anything wider than 21 will not be it. If it is windy you don't need a 130l board even at 110kg. If it is light wind you don't want a 23+ board, you need long (but for winging you don't really want to go over 7) and narrow.
Indeed, I don't plan to jump with this board, it's a board that I'm considering as a second special light wind board so for the minimum wind where I can use it (I'd like to go down to 10 knots not necessarily more) and it's a board that I'll use up to a maximum of 16 knots but no more.
For the length and width, I wouldn't like to have a board that's too long (+7'6) because the main defect that comes up on this type of board is its bulk in flight and the loss of maneuverability due to the length. Plus for a question of practice and transport, limiting myself to 7' / 7'6 would be perfect. For the width, I tried a 6'6 x 24'5 and 124 liter MD board and the main "problem" was stability when stopped, whether kneeling or standing. On my lake in the summer, light wind sessions can quickly end in sessions where the wind disappears completely, so having a minimum of comfort / balance will be, for me, an asset, whether to return to Archimedean or even to be able to be comfortable to get up and pump without having to look for balance, that's why a 23'/24' board seemed good to me....
If you know of any models that might suit me, don't hesitate, I'm listening !!
Other boards to consider. Omen Supermarine 120 and Duotone Skybrid 130. No experience with them.
The Omen Supermarine is 6'9 x 25' and 120 liters and the Skybrid is 6'7 x 24' and 130 liters, I thought that with these widths it might be wiser to take a longer board (7' / 7'6) in order to gain balance / comfort on the one hand and especially in glide and therefore improve the speed of the takeoff.
I do SUP, I had Race boards and I have SUP surf boards, I try to draw a parallel with the Wingfoil board, the width is an advantage on glide and speed but too narrow is a hindrance because we are less agile on it and less efficient to put it in motion (paddling or pumping). The length will always be an advantage for gaining speed but too much length can become a hindrance for maneuverability.
I saw a lot of people this summer on my Spot in Mid Length (6' to 6'6) who were not more efficient in the light despite 6m? or 7m? because when I looked at them they lacked balance, volume to pump effectively, unlike the guys on downwind boards who stood up more easily without wind and were more efficient at pumping.
With a size like mine 1m89 and 110kg+ and an intermediate level, I think we need to review the sliders upwards compared to the mid length for "normal" sizes (+/- 85kg) which generally revolve around 5'10 to 6'6.
For the volume I am definitely aiming for 135 liters minimum, after that what will be the most efficient, a board a little wider 24'/25' but shorter 6'6/6'10 or a board a little less wide 23'/24' but longer 7'/7'6??
Select to expand quoteFatben said..
The Omen Supermarine is 6'9 x 25' and 120 liters and the Skybrid is 6'7 x 24' and 130 liters, I thought that with these widths it might be wiser to take a longer board (7' / 7'6) in order to gain balance / comfort on the one hand and especially in glide and therefore improve the speed of the takeoff.
I do SUP, I had Race boards and I have SUP surf boards, I try to draw a parallel with the Wingfoil board, the width is an advantage on glide and speed but too narrow is a hindrance because we are less agile on it and less efficient to put it in motion (paddling or pumping). The length will always be an advantage for gaining speed but too much length can become a hindrance for maneuverability.
I saw a lot of people this summer on my Spot in Mid Length (6' to 6'6) who were not more efficient in the light despite 6m? or 7m? because when I looked at them they lacked balance, volume to pump effectively, unlike the guys on downwind boards who stood up more easily without wind and were more efficient at pumping.
With a size like mine 1m89 and 110kg+ and an intermediate level, I think we need to review the sliders upwards compared to the mid length for "normal" sizes (+/- 85kg) which generally revolve around 5'10 to 6'6.
For the volume I am definitely aiming for 135 liters minimum, after that what will be the most efficient, a board a little wider 24'/25' but shorter 6'6/6'10 or a board a little less wide 23'/24' but longer 7'/7'6??
Because you saw guys on downwind boards stand up more easily that is your evidence that they are more stable? Could it be more experienced individuals? How about the board design? Maybe I am just confused, but why would it be easier to balance on a 20" vs a 25" board with same design? I don't think there is much advantage going from 6'9" to 7'6". I would rather have a thinner board. The volume has to go somewhere. Length, width or thickness.
Yes, you're absolutely right; the rider's experience plays a huge role. What I said above is a feeling based on what I've seen; ideally, the riders should have swapped boards, and then I would have really seen the board's impact.
I never said it's easier to keep your balance on a 20" board of the same design than on a 25" board, and I'd have a hard time believing it.
But with the same width/volume, wouldn't an extra length provide a little more stability?
Regarding board design, it seems to me that the bottom, depending on its shape, whether completely flat or with large bevels, and the thickness of the board, are also factors that will play a huge role in the board's stability.
I have no definitive answer, that's why I'm asking for advice here.
while Omen makes really nice boards, stability on the water is not a strong suit with that hull shape...
length definitely adds stability, everything else equal, and simply taking out the fore-aft balance issue makes dealing with some roll instability easier to manage (for some at least)...
While the principle is really well established...the efficiency and speed of long and narrow hulls is pretty amazing to experience what a difference it makes, so I'd go as long as as narrow as you can get away with (and a flattish bottom)...it also comes in really handy for paddling when the wind completely dies
My call: Last year's Armie standard DW board 7'9" x 20.25" x 5.75" Vol:116L (on sale now at a few shops it seems)
A big foil with a wide span also adds roll stability while you are on the water and extra lift is a win win for the issues your are facing
I have a 7' f one sup foil board, with Code 1075R, im 83kg and can get up in very little wind with a 5m strike aluula or 4.3m ozone flux aluula
Important to take all variables into consideration when you are talking about stability so you understand what kind of stability you are adding to the system.
Longer and wider are going to be more stable but the benefits of width are, IMO, overrated and misunderstood by many. The stability issues are almost exclusively related to when you are NOT moving. Once you get the board moving though, the longer narrow boards will want to KEEP moving. Movement is what provides the stability. So, don't get a board based on how stable you will feel when you are standing on it in glass water without a wing in your hand. Get it based on it's ability to produce forward movement easily which then provides you with the stability you want.
In flight the length adds pitch stability which isn't a bad thing necessarily. Width adds roll stability which might be fine for a beginner but it holds you back badly as you develop and want to turn/carve harder.
I suppose it's a question of compromise, up to what length and width will the advantages and gains outweigh the disadvantages!!
Knowing that we must not forget that it is in a special Light Wind perspective, so up to 16 to 18 knots, not necessarily more, and for 100% Wingfoil use, in this case, it is better to favor a board that is a little smaller (7' to 7'6) and a little wider (23" to 24") or go for a long board (+8') but much narrower (20" to 22").
And what model would you recommend for Light Wind in these dimensions that is really suitable for Wingfoil ?
You're looking for too much volume into too short of a board which means it'll be thick. A thick board will be less stable AND unresponsive in flight compared to a thinner, longer, skinnier one.
120L would be my absolute maximum at your weight and 110L would be better.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
120L would be my absolute maximum at your weight and 110L would be better.
120 L board can be incredibly responsive, nothing wrong with having some volume. But for a 110 kg intermediate, riding on a lake where the wind is unpredictable, I'd easily suggest a bit more than 120 L to really enjoy the less windy days. Speaking as an unpredictable-lake-wind specialist, riding a 120 L board here.
8'4 120l Dw 6m (or bigger) wing & huge foil. Lets face it you're wanting to go out in light wind why try to be picky with the smallest wing, lowest possible volume etc? You don't need a performance setup, you need something that will bring a smile to your face when you are foiling in conditions most couldn't get up in. I used to think LWing was stupid until I tried it. I have as much fun on this setup in light wind as i do on a small board in windy conditions. Different challenges. If the seas messy then it's a challenge to control the huge foil & you can glide on smaller bumps. I love riding my 8'4 board. I don't notice any extra swing weight or length. The only downside sometimes is the tail hits the tops of waves
Select to expand quoteFatben said..
And what model would you recommend for Light Wind in these dimensions that is really suitable for Wingfoil ?
I ride Sunova so I'll recommend Sunova:
sunovasurfboards.com/en-us/collections/downwind-foil/products/aviator-downwind
You can ask them for any custom dim you might want.
I agree with the recent comments, don't be afraid of a big board, you can absolutely shred on it. Longer and narrower will just give you more opportunities for smaller foils as you progress.
Let it rip!
I'm 190lbs/88kg. I do a lot of light wind foiling here in NY and have tried to optimize my gear. In 8-10mph I can get up on a 100L KT Dragonfly Surf2 Custom, a 960 or 1130 KT Atlas and a 6.5m Unit. I don't mind the narrow, tippy board because the surface is usually smooth in light winds. The board is exceptionally light (~4.5kg) and stiff due to KTs new sandwich construction. I've ridden the same board in regular construction and I need 20% less energy to get on foil w the stiffer sandwich board. I have tried other boards (Fone, Kalama, Omen, Armstrong) but keep coming back to KT. The current generation comes off the water super early, is great in transitions, a dream to ride in waves and also my go to for learning to parawing. What's also important is a foil w a lot of glide and great low end. This helps w getting up and staying up through the transitions. The last thing you want is to fall off foil in a jibe and have to work hard to get on foil again. I found the KT Atlas to check all of these boxes and also work incredibly well when riding waves Lastly the wing. Personally I like the gruntiness of the Unit combined w its easy handling. It's exceptionally easy to handle in Heineken jibes which are a great way to transition in very light winds. It also tacks really well when there is a touch more wind.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
I would pick an 8'x21" board over a 7'x23" board every time.
As I said before Armstrong 8ft 11in x 17.25 x 108l. No issues with stability or swing weight as its very light and one stands almost in the middle. I use it from 5 to 25kn wind and love it, so easy to ride.
I was initially put off by the 17.25 in width until I tried a friend's and I could not believe how stable it is so bought one.
The Armstrong is more stable than my Duotone Skybrid 85l x 5ft 8in x 22in.
Doesn't it depend on what you really want. At my local spot, some guys ride a board they can stand on in 'no wind', I ride a board that needs 'just some wind' or its a struggle (like being on a bicycle with no forward movement), then I just paddle around on my knees or stomach, up to now anyways, I prefer the small board over the penalty of not being able to stand in 'no wind'. We all seem to like slightly different set ups and it's really interesting. (Taavi your rides are always very impressive!)
