Select to expand quoteGilderfish said..
Agree with the comments. In this case he could easily have eased up a bit, and I think he should have. That said I should have just recognised that the rules only take you so far and I should not have gone near him
No use being dead right is my motto
Select to expand quoteMikeyS said..BSN0 said..
. Yes you have right of way,
NO YOU DON'T!!!!!!!!! The ColRegs, which govern the "Rules of the Road", as adopted by virtually every State throughout the world, DO NOT GIVE YOU RIGHT OF WAY!!!
This is the biggest myth that never seems to go away.
There is a cascading set of OBLIGATIONS in the ColRegs, but nowhere do they give anyone a right of way. Just because someone else has an obligation, it doesn't give you a right. I know the difference might seem subtle, but this erroneous thinking tends to end up in collisions where the person in charge of the smaller, more vulnerable vessel, ends up in hospital, or worse.
EVERYONE on the water has an obligation to KEEP A PROPER LOOKOUT at all times and to avoid a collision.The powerboat has an obligation to give way to sailboats, including windsurfers. But that does not give your right of way. Your obligation in a possible collision situation initially is to maintain your course an speed. To comply with his obligation, the powerboat should alter course in a way to clearly avoid the collision. Not some pissy little turn, but something that clearly signals to you that there won't be a collision.
So if the powerboat doesn't comply with his obligation, and you still find yourself on a collision course, which you say you did, your OBLIGATION is to then alter course to avoid a collision.
There are plenty of resources that explain the ColRegs. Please people, read and understand them. And don't fall into the trap of thinking you have RIGHT OF WAY. You do not!
(There are a different, additional set of sailing racing rules that do use the concept of right of way, but they only apply to and between vessels racing.)
Mikey S, seems you are all tied up in semantics rather than the wellbeing of the water users.
If you want to take a paraphrase of my total post, feel free. But lets see.... if neither user saw the other and hence all obligations were adhered to, who has right of way... thats right, Guilderfish. Hence the infringement notice issued under your beloved Colregs.
Maybe you should get off your high horse and look at the real issue..... which is keeping all users safe on the water. Ultimately that really is what this is all about. no one wants to see accidents. so lets all use some common sense and avoid this stuff in the first place.
I'm about safety and common sense! not blame.
I had to study Coastal Navigation as a part of tertiary education, so i can see the validity of Mikeys point. But im still bemused by maritime law making, and the concern it holds for terminology.
They've turned the mention of term "right of way" into a sin (owing to a belief that would be mariners are latching onto it as a singular phrase absolute.) and replaced it with the term "stand on vessel". Where do they think that leads an unstudied boatie who is prone to latching onto single phrases? Running into another vessel is where. But that links in with their whole concept that a stand on vessel is required to stand on, until it's clear that the give way vessel is not giving way. When exactly is that point? Too late is when. Especially in the situation where the stand on vessel has less manoeuvrability.
they would be far better to educate boaties (all of us) to keep a constant look out, give way early, make a clear and definite alteration of course, and don't play chicken. If you're on the water for leisure, dont put yourself in the situation where you're close enough to have to worry about who gives way when.
In the early days, before I was familiar with port and starboard, I had a collision, because we both gave way early, and performed a series of zigzags that was supposed to prevent the collision, but we were out of phase. Neither of us thought to hold our course, if one of us had played chicken the collision wouldn't have occurred.
Select to expand quotedecrepit said..
In the early days, before I was familiar with port and starboard, I had a collision, because we both gave way early, and performed a series of zigzags that was supposed to prevent the collision, but we were out of phase. Neither of us thought to hold our course, if one of us had played chicken the collision wouldn't have occurred.
That happened to me back in the 80's..
Yep. 80's it was, I'd come straight from surfing, you just gave way to the person on the inside, what was supposed to happen on flat water was a mystery. But this incident taught me! I was meant to hold my line as I was on starboard.
I remember in the 80's that there were people that believed if they were on a wave the outgoing sailors needed to give way to them. Some would yell and scream... trouble was, the guy going out was grovelling and had no where to go, the guy coming in was planing... and ranting.
Select to expand quoteBSN0 said..
... if neither user saw the other and hence all obligations were adhered to, who has right of way... thats right, Guilderfish.
BSN0, can you please educate me then. We are in violent agreement that it's about keeping all users safe on the water. Which I think can only be through education and knowledge. And everyone understanding their rights, and obligations, if any.
Can you please identify the Colreg that would give Guilderfish "right of way" in this situation. And can you also explain how a collision would occur if "all obligations were adhered to", in particular, Rule 5?
Last week i saw a near collision of a windsurfer and a moth in the Swan River.
The windsurfer was sailing on a reach towards the Claremont side and the Moth was heading close to directly upwind coming from the city towards Fremantle.
There were three very fast moving moths in total and the first two passed well before the sailor but the third was trailing the other two by 200 metres plus.
The single sailor moth when the two vessels got close (around 40 - 50 metres) was the first to spot the danger and veered sharply to his right then I saw the windsurfer immediately afterwards put his brakes on and also change course.
It could so easily have been a fatal I am afraid to say.
The biggest problem with a windsurfer is they do not have uninterrupted vision.
I strongly urge all windsurfers to look through their sail OFTEN especially when in the boating channel.
By often I mean every 60 seconds at a minimum WITHOUT FAIL.
This latest near miss has scared me a lot.
Look once for boats and again for moths.
Stay safe by looking through your sail OFTEN!
Select to expand quotepetermac33 said..
Last week i saw a near collision of a windsurfer and a moth in the Swan River.
The windsurfer was sailing on a reach towards the Claremont side and the Moth was heading close to directly upwind coming from the city towards Fremantle.
There were three very fast moving moths in total and the first two passed well before the sailor but the third was trailing the other two by 200 metres plus.
The single sailor moth when the two vessels got close (around 40 - 50 metres) was the first to spot the danger and veered sharply to his right then I saw the windsurfer immediately afterwards put his brakes on and also change course.
It could so easily have been a fatal I am afraid to say.
The biggest problem with a windsurfer is they do not have uninterrupted vision.
I strongly urge all windsurfers to look through their sail OFTEN especially when in the boating channel.
By often I mean every 60 seconds at a minimum WITHOUT FAIL.
This latest near miss has scared me a lot.
Look once for boats and again for moths.
Stay safe by looking through your sail OFTEN!
Good points Pete.
re moths these things are smoking fast and front on are very easy to miss- like looking at a stealth fighter, especially if they are running downwind in a seao with the sun behind them and like all foiling craft they are almost silent.
The good bit about them is they are usually piloted by seasoned pros who have spent large amounts of time on the river and have a good eye for other river traffic.
Generally speaking (IMO) altercations between sail craft on the Swan River are generally orderly....they do happen but don't usually result in catastrophic accidents as Pete and Neil and others have suffered.
The real issue is large power boats driven by people who don't give a f&@k about anyone else.
Generally their course of travel is straight up or straight down the river ie they are going somewhere.
In a normal sea breeze scenario all sail craft are going at some stage, across the river at right angles to the power boat direction of travel.
This situation lends it self to the best chances of collisions and in addition the sailor nearly always has or her back facing the danger.In relation to the Swan River specifically, I have witnessed increased traffic of late going up and down the river- I believe now the city has a destination - Elizabeth Quay, and with the shutting of Rotto every knob with a 40 footer is ploughing their way to the city and back.
So everyone please keep an eye out.
Select to expand quotedecrepit said..
In the early days, before I was familiar with port and starboard, I had a collision, because we both gave way early, and performed a series of zigzags that was supposed to prevent the collision, but we were out of phase. Neither of us thought to hold our course, if one of us had played chicken the collision wouldn't have occurred.
I should probably clarify what i meant by not playing chicken. When i'm out sailing, i tend to turn tail or alter course before the other person (i was leaning toward powerboat/sailing vessel interactions) is even on a collision course. Gone are the days where i used to cross the river without looking miles in either direction up and down river. These days if i see traffic coming, i just sail a different part of the river till they've passed by.
so what i meant was avoid putting yourself in the position where you are relying on the other vessel to know the rules and what to do. Because by the time you establish they don't it might be too late.
you are completely right when you're on a collision course with another windsurfer or kiter, someone needs to stay on course to avoid a collision. But thats because you know their attention will be on whats coming, and avoiding hitting it. They won't be leaning over to pour another chandy whilst their 50 foot penis extension continues powering along without them at the wheel.
