Hi Folks,
Given the great NE winds we've had lately I've noticed a few of sailiors coming in close the shore at speed to gybe.
It's great gybing in the nice flat water and being able stand up if you muff it, but it can be dangerous for other beach users if your're hitting the swimming area at 30 knots plus.
Some of the beach goers there aren't too smart in staying out of the way.
I had a recent close call. Sailing in I caught a fishing line (from the not so smart fishermen) mid gybe. It thrEW me off balance, I ended up going straight and then lost the sail which nearly scalped one of the kids in the water who had decided to come out to greet me.
I suggest that if gybing at speed do it atleast 50m of shore and or slow down so you have plenty of room for error.
I'm sure there is some rule about speed and proximity to shore.
THE LAST THING WE'D WANT IS A SAILBOARD BAN IN THE AREA.
Absolutely. And it gets even worse in the late afternoon when you're sailing in to the glare of the setting sun.
Totally agree Des. Many years ago I did a gybe close to shore thereand it was a week day and they was hardly anyone on the beach and it looked clear of swimmers. It turned out someone was snorkelling with just the tip of the snorkel showing. I came in at around 25 knots to gybe. I saw them at the last second and would have had no time to avoid them had they been directly in my path. I think I missed them by about 3m. I suspect if I hit them with my fin I could have killed them. I generally try to gybe in the dark water now before the sand. Sometimes other traffic can cause me to go in further than I planned, but I generally coast into a slow gybe and have a hard look for any swimmers.
While we are at it, I found on Saturday, the most windsurfing traffic I have had in a long time. There were several times where I was sailing looking at 3-4 sailors coming towards me in close proximity in the other direction and trying to work out what path I am going to take. Inevitably this often leads to one of those moments where I go one way and the guy coming towards me goes the same, and we change directions several times until we work it out. I have before had times (years ago), where I had to luff into the wind and stop because we did not work it out and almost had a collision (2-3m!!).
I have always thought that starboard tack has right of way (coming back to shore in NE), and if I am on the way out I generally try to head downwind of people coming back. If coming in I try to hold my line and let the person on port tack adjust theirs, but recently I have had some people on port tack sailing really aggressively. Sometimes it is just an upwind race, where one is try to get higher than the other, and normally someone backs out when they realise they can't get higher than the other and I don't mind this as long as people back out before it gets too close. But the other day I had someone who really pushed the point. I was coming in on starboard tack, and I am pointed fairly high. Someone in other direction also going upwind. I point higher to indicate I am going upwind. They do the same, but I am going higher than them so should be no problem. But then as the other sailor does their best to get as high as they can and we are getting close, I realise I am going so high I am getting close to someone heading in the same direction as me a little upwind of me, and I am probably in their blind spot behind their sail. I ease off and come parallel to the sailor in same direction as me maybe 5m away from them. I have nowhere to go. The sailor in the other direction is heading straight towards me, and crosses behind me about 2-3m from a collision. I end up so close to the sailor parallel to me that I could touch their sail. I am yelling at the guy as he almost hit me and almost caused me to hit someone else. This all happened very quickly. From me noticing the other sailor behind me to crossing was maybe 5-10 seconds, and not enough time to simply slow down to avoid collision. The sailor coming in other direction had plenty of room to sail downwind of us, but chose to push as close to me as he could.... maybe he was within his right to do this?
Now I may have been in the wrong above, and I am just posting here in the interest of my own and others safety to work out what should have happened, and what we as sailors should be doing to avoid dangerous situations when we are hurtling towards each other at 30 knots.
I also had another near miss on Saturday when heading into shore. I was heading upwind to make it above the swimming nets, and someone going in same direction is heading downwind to a similar point about 10-15m ahead of me. Then without warning they gybed straight around the front of me. They did not look before gybing. I yelled at the top of my voice, and they heard me and aborted their gybe and I narrowly avoided hitting them. Again, what is general understanding for what should have happened. I think I just had a bad day Saturday as it is unusual for these events to happen, but I want to be sure I am doing the right thing when these things do happen. I tend to always look for people downwind of me when gybing, and sometimes that means I abort a gybe and go into shore and stop. Maybe it is courtesy for someone going into shore to make space for sailors turning to do their gybes?
Cheers,
Adrian
Sat was the busiest I've seen Kyeemah in a long time with all the windsurfers congregating at the north car park.
25knots sea breeze and 30 degrees of sunshine does that.
Imagine the crowd in Sydney if we got those conditions regularly?
What I do when I see somebody swimming in the gibe zone oblivious of the danger is flip my board over and show them the fin.
I'm sure they just dont realise and are generally thankful.
Yes we've got to be on the lookout. Other than swimmers watch out for spearfishermen they're less predictable in whereabouts and can be underwater for the time it takes you to do 500 metres or more. I was cruising about on a moderately wind day and spotted a small foam small buoy that wasn't there normally. About 300 metres from shore and 100 metres from the nearest reef. I slowed down sensing something unusual. At about 4 knots, still 25 metres from the buoy, suddenly, there he is right in front of me. I drop the rig to stomp on the tail. The rig lands right on top of him. He wouldn't have known what hit him and did well to get out from under just as I got into rescue mode. Up he pops googles all astray, snorkel inverted, harpoon glinting in the sun. He could have taken me out there and then, but he was nice about it. " I can normally hear if motor boats are about that thing's quiet" he says.
Fortunately spearfishermen mostly avoid windy days, otherwise the probability of collisions would be much higher. They can't hear us and they don't look up much.
All sailing craft should keep 20 mtrs from swimmers .l have seen to many close encounters my self included some people swim under and they are hard to see when you are coming in at high speed. I could only think how life threatening it would be if someone got hit.maybe take out a life liability insurance because people will seek compensation at our expense!
Select to expand quotevosadrian said..
Totally agree Des. Many years ago I did a gybe close to shore thereand it was a week day and they was hardly anyone on the beach and it looked clear of swimmers. It turned out someone was snorkelling with just the tip of the snorkel showing. I came in at around 25 knots to gybe. I saw them at the last second and would have had no time to avoid them had they been directly in my path. I think I missed them by about 3m. I suspect if I hit them with my fin I could have killed them. I generally try to gybe in the dark water now before the sand. Sometimes other traffic can cause me to go in further than I planned, but I generally coast into a slow gybe and have a hard look for any swimmers.
While we are at it, I found on Saturday, the most windsurfing traffic I have had in a long time. There were several times where I was sailing looking at 3-4 sailors coming towards me in close proximity in the other direction and trying to work out what path I am going to take. Inevitably this often leads to one of those moments where I go one way and the guy coming towards me goes the same, and we change directions several times until we work it out. I have before had times (years ago), where I had to luff into the wind and stop because we did not work it out and almost had a collision (2-3m!!).
I have always thought that starboard tack has right of way (coming back to shore in NE), and if I am on the way out I generally try to head downwind of people coming back. If coming in I try to hold my line and let the person on port tack adjust theirs, but recently I have had some people on port tack sailing really aggressively. Sometimes it is just an upwind race, where one is try to get higher than the other, and normally someone backs out when they realise they can't get higher than the other and I don't mind this as long as people back out before it gets too close. But the other day I had someone who really pushed the point. I was coming in on starboard tack, and I am pointed fairly high. Someone in other direction also going upwind. I point higher to indicate I am going upwind. They do the same, but I am going higher than them so should be no problem. But then as the other sailor does their best to get as high as they can and we are getting close, I realise I am going so high I am getting close to someone heading in the same direction as me a little upwind of me, and I am probably in their blind spot behind their sail. I ease off and come parallel to the sailor in same direction as me maybe 5m away from them. I have nowhere to go. The sailor in the other direction is heading straight towards me, and crosses behind me about 2-3m from a collision. I end up so close to the sailor parallel to me that I could touch their sail. I am yelling at the guy as he almost hit me and almost caused me to hit someone else. This all happened very quickly. From me noticing the other sailor behind me to crossing was maybe 5-10 seconds, and not enough time to simply slow down to avoid collision. The sailor coming in other direction had plenty of room to sail downwind of us, but chose to push as close to me as he could.... maybe he was within his right to do this?
Now I may have been in the wrong above, and I am just posting here in the interest of my own and others safety to work out what should have happened, and what we as sailors should be doing to avoid dangerous situations when we are hurtling towards each other at 30 knots.
I also had another near miss on Saturday when heading into shore. I was heading upwind to make it above the swimming nets, and someone going in same direction is heading downwind to a similar point about 10-15m ahead of me. Then without warning they gybed straight around the front of me. They did not look before gybing. I yelled at the top of my voice, and they heard me and aborted their gybe and I narrowly avoided hitting them. Again, what is general understanding for what should have happened. I think I just had a bad day Saturday as it is unusual for these events to happen, but I want to be sure I am doing the right thing when these things do happen. I tend to always look for people downwind of me when gybing, and sometimes that means I abort a gybe and go into shore and stop. Maybe it is courtesy for someone going into shore to make space for sailors turning to do their gybes?
Cheers,
Adrian
To make it simple just remember these 3 rules.
Starboard has right of way.
Windward board keep clear.
Overtaking board keep clear.
One tip for avoiding collision when sailing towards each other ( Closing head on ) is if the other sailor stays at the
same spot in your visual field and you are closing towards each other , then you are in a collision course.
So either slow down or give way but do something early not when you're about to hit each other.
I use this observation particularly for those crazy jet skiers at Kyeema doing their burn outs.
In addition to Rick's comments: Starboard tack should hold their line, port tack avoids a collision.
Just to be clear at Kyeemagh sailing in a NE seabreeze, port is sailing out from the shore with your left hand forward and starboard is sailing back to shore with your right hand forward? So those going out are expected to give way?
Just to add to Windoc comments etc, if the bearing of a vessel remains constant then you are on a collision course with them. If the bearing is opening it will pass behind you and if closing in front of you. Also in addition if you are overtaking another windsurfer you are the give way sailor, or if you are upwind of a sailor you should stay that way and can't force a sailor below you to bear away. We should give way to stand up paddle boards, kayaks etc and of course swimmers and also ship's etc that are constrained by their draught and restricted in their ability to manoeuvre. If you are about to have a head on, then marine law requires both vessel's to alter to Starboard, so the outward board would bear away, and in the inward would point higher.
Select to expand quoteMobydisc said..
Just to be clear at Kyeemagh sailing in a NE seabreeze, port is sailing out from the shore with your left hand forward and starboard is sailing back to shore with your right hand forward? So those going out are expected to give way?
That's how it is easily remembered Karl at any spot.....right hand at the front of the boom has right of way because you are always on a starboard tack with the right hand at the front of the boom.
My main concerns are jet skis and guys who want to gybe right around you to show off and fall with there 100 years old gear, after that botany bay is big enough to avoid windsurfers collision.
Select to expand quoteWaiting4wind said..
I'm sure there is some rule about speed and proximity to shore.
Not sure on that rule but I was lead to believe that you had to be 100m's away from swimmers. Makes it hard to sail at popular beaches...
Thanks guys... that is how I thought the rules work. It seems we have a number of sailors not sticking to the rules. To be fair, I am sure that the first example I posted would not have hit me under any situation, but he was quite happy to get within a few metres of me and get me seriously concerned, and also get me seriously close to another sailor. The second sailor was just a lapse in concentration and did not check before gybing... and I have done that before myself.
So my point is that even if you follow the rules, be prepared for the fact that others will not, and be prepared to adjust for this... preferably early with plenty of time rather than waiting until too late. I find most people are battling to stay upwind, so most of the time if I bear off, the other sailor will be happy to go upwind. It is normally if I push the point to go upwind that others see it as a competition to see who can go highest. At least going upwind you can generally easily dig the heal in and point directly into the wind and stop quickly if you need to.
Some info from Maritime website:
www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/index.html
regarding jet-skys and power vessels proximity:
they have to stay 60 mtrs away from non powered vessels and swimmers. I have seen too many jet-skys and power boats cut very close in front of windsurfers.
Designated swinmming area is defined as 60 metres from the shore (unless flags are present in which case it's 500 metres): powered vessels cannot be operated in those areas.
Looks like rules are in favour of windsurfers, being non-powered vessels they can do away with those restrictions, in our case the 'safe speed' rule applies.
Select to expand quoteAJEaster said..Mobydisc said..
Just to be clear at Kyeemagh sailing in a NE seabreeze, port is sailing out from the shore with your left hand forward and starboard is sailing back to shore with your right hand forward? So those going out are expected to give way?
That's how it is easily remembered Karl at any spot.....right hand at the front of the boom has right of way because you are always on a starboard tack with the right hand at the front of the boom.
Which still doesn't get around the little dance we sometimes do when heading right for each other.
Can I propose that boats always pass on the right?
Panda, sorry but no. The starboard rules that AUS 4 mentioned are gospel.
I found a few guys at Kyermagh last Sat did not understand this rule, and had a go at me when I was consistently holding my ground on starboard tack. Seriously dangerous in hindsight.
There is no other possibility.
Learn the basic rules everyone!
Sailing fast and gybing close to the beach is foolish and irresposible. There is plenty of water out there.
PS: shear Tip is also correct. Hold your rhumb line when on Starboard to keep a predictable course. Do not be 'nice' to the port tack sailor and deviate your course.
Holding your course creates a predictable environment on the water, as you would on the road.
I agree with all points here especially people correctly giving right of way.
Not sure how other people feel about this or if there is already something in existence but I sent a suggestion to Laurie after reading this post for the creation of either a "wiki" page or a sticky thread that is visible at the top of each forum perhaps of a set of rules or etiquette agreed on by the community that people who come to this forum will hopefully read and keep in mind when they go out sailing no matter what their skill level.
Anyway would like to hear what other people think about this?
It's a good suggestion , but the best would be to install signs at the carpark with basic rules for sailors and jet skiers
I think one of the main issues is many windsurfers do not have a big sailing background so we need to move away from starboard/port when describing right of way and start using left and right for describing right of way. AJ's memory trick of having your right hand forward giving you the right of way is a good and simple way to remember in a panic situation.
The other main rule is to avoid a collision at all costs. Its no good being in the right if you end up in hospital or dead because of it.
Yes agree @AUS4, experienced sailors and windsurfers know these rules but it is the new and inexperienced that do not.
This thread has all the right information but in a month it will disappear or be so long that it will be too daunting to read & it also only exists in the NSW forum. This is a good reminder but think it would be great to see this information persist so all can view it?
Just my thoughts again...
Also this is a good general guide to water going crafts.
www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/index.html
I was unsure if I was following the rules properly, but it turns out I was. I still had two near misses and several confusing situations that worked out OK.
The problem seems to be that not everybody knows (or follows) the rules, and many do get annoyed at you when you are simply following the rules as they think you are forcing them off their course. I think it is safer for me to not take my rightful right of way if a port sailor has pushed the point and displayed they are not following the rules, and I think I will just let them go in future. This will unfortunately lead to unpredictability in what I do on the water, but I think it may be a safer way to sail on busy days. If a collision did happen, the potential for bad injury is high, and even if that is avoided it could be thousands of $$$ in equipment damage.
On another note, I do tend to make space for sailors that are dedicated to a speed run or pointing really high trying to get upwind or are obviously preparing to gybe etc. regardless of the rules. If I am shooting for a PB speed run or running out of space to gybe, I would be annoyed if someone forced me out of it!
Hi Guys,
It was more or less my first day back windsurfing after two years. I really enjoyed the day and it was good fun. However I was shocked how fast and uncontrolled those jet ski drivers blast through the windsurfers. There is so much space on botany bay, why the hell do they have to jetski in the windsurfers area!?!?! I think this is more of a danger than the swimmers. I would just jibe 50 metres in front of the beach???problem solved!
Cheers
Rules are rules. I still came within six feet of getting mown down by a powerboat not paying attention last weekend.
The other rule is avoid a collision at all costs.
