locosys vs garmin

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FredoSmith said..
I am a bit confused?
If there is rules to use GPSTC what is the problem, follow the rules.
If the there is rules to get a new device approved, follow the rules,
If you are not happy with the rules don't use the site and or start your own site.
My 2 cents worth of a long time reader first time poster.
Fred

Hi Fred Smith from NewZealand . What GPSTC Team Are you in?

Hi Cocky2
No GPS team for me, health issues has had me off the water for a lot of years (Sadly).
Would love to be out there, but just a interested by stander now.
Just get to watch the videos on Seabreeze and the World Cup events.
I love reading the discussions on Seabreeze but this one just seemed to be going around in circles.

And like sand through an hour glass "These are the Days of our Lives" ??????

My position is that I enjoy using the GPSTC (although I am having back issues recently preventing me doing much sailing) on a team that has not been that competitive and I rarely post an activity that contributes to a team result... but I enjoy seeing team members, posting results and comparing.

For many years I have used a Garmin Geko. It is about 12 years old and is accepted by GPSTC and I can post my results. It has no doppler speed and no accuracy data. It only logs positional data at a minimum period of 2s. It has an RS232 serial cable and takes some time to upload files with particular software which is a bit of a pain. It uses AAA batteries and has limited memory that result in only allowing around 6 hours sailing... but I can use it with GPSTC.

I also have a late model Garmin watch (Vivoactive 3) released within the last 12 months. It is much higher spec'd GPS than the Geko, but like all Garmins, it does not have the magic accuracy figure logged. It allows me to connect to my phone and upload via bluetooth in a matter of seconds anywhere in phone coverage. It is also much easier to read and even has apps specifically for telling windsurfing metrics while you sail. I wear it all the time anyway and use it for many other things.

So in my case, I have 3 choices:
1) Use my Geko as I always have even though it is inferior to the watch on my arm in every way and is a pain for battery life and uploading and provides worse data.... but it is accepted by GPSTC.
2) Use my watch and don't post to GPSTC as it is not allowed.
3) Purchase the new locosys watch which from my research reveals it is a purchase I would regret. I would only use it for sailing and nothing else... and I am not doing much sailing at the moment.

Clearly I am not intending to use option 3. So it will be 1 or 2 for me. If I could use me watch in place of my Geko, it would not change anything to anyone else as the watch is no worse in spec than the Geko which is permitted. The Geko has limitations on its use, and the watch could have the same limitations.

So... yes the GPSTC has rules and they need to be followed just like any sport. Clearly it is unlikely that anyone will make a new version of GPSTC that is accepting of other devices (but it would be nice if we could figure out way to use Strava to do it!!). I get the point that others have done work (that I appreciate)... and I am not offering my own time to do the work. But that does not change the current predicament which is that there is only one accepted device in production and available from shops and it appears to be crap. The rules could be very slightly modified to correct this predicament, and that is why people are posting here.

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vosadrian said..

So in my case, I have 3 choices:
1) Use my Geko as I always have even though it is inferior to the watch on my arm in every way and is a pain for battery life and uploading and provides worse data.... but it is accepted by GPSTC.
2) Use my watch and don't post to GPSTC as it is not allowed.
3) Purchase the new locosys watch which from my research reveals it is a purchase I would regret. I would only use it for sailing and nothing else... and I am not doing much sailing at the moment.

Clearly I am not intending to use option 3. So it will be 1 or 2 for me. If I could use me watch in place of my Geko, it would not change anything to anyone else as the watch is no worse in spec than the Geko which is permitted. The Geko has limitations on its use, and the watch could have the same limitations.

So... yes the GPSTC has rules and they need to be followed just like any sport. Clearly it is unlikely that anyone will make a new version of GPSTC that is accepting of other devices (but it would be nice if we could figure out way to use Strava to do it!!). I get the point that others have done work (that I appreciate)... and I am not offering my own time to do the work. But that does not change the current predicament which is that there is only one accepted device in production and available from shops and it appears to be crap. The rules could be very slightly modified to correct this predicament, and that is why people are posting here.

Well summed up Adrian.

I sympathise with your situation, and I understand your logic, but those are your choices. What you choose is up to you. It's obviously not ideal for you, but then, much of what happens in life is like that. You may take some solice in knowing that your situation is somewhat unique, and that the vast majority of GPS-TC users dont have that particular dilemma. (I don't think anyone else actually still uses the Legacy Devices).

And yes, I agree with you that the GW-60 is certainly not ideal for many people. But at the moment, that, and the superseded GT-31/GW52, are the only readily available options that we have.

I take exception the the comment that 'The rules could be very slightly modified to correct this predicament,'

They cannot!

For all the reasons outlined so many times before. But particularly because allowing new non-'SDOP' devices is NOT a small change. It is a fundemental change and totally against the principles we work to, to maintain the integrity, validity and fairness of the GPS-TC rankings.

A gps that does not include Doppler data and Doppler error is not going to be approved for GPS-TC. There is just no reliable way to assess it's accuracy as a whole, and particularly, the validity of any single result.

At the moment, SirF and ublox are the only chip manufacturers I know of who include this data in their normal output (Although for SirF - not in all firmware versions).

Of course there is a system for approval of a GPS for the GPS-TC. Any device that produces Doppler speeds and Doppler speed error data can be submitted for approval, even home made ones based on the Ublox chipset. All the approval process is designed to do, for known GPS chips (Sirf and ublox) is to check that the device is working as designed, the output is as expected, and that the results are consistent with other simillarly based approved devices. . (IE. No construction or design problems that degrade to performance and output of the GPS chip)

It may be possible, in theory, for someone to come up with a valid method to work out a way of producing Doppler speed error data from any GPS chipset. It surely would be a very time consuming and difficult task though involving a great deal of testing and data gathering and a very sound understanding of the GNSS priciples and Mathematics involved. And then they would need acces to the base code of the GPS and firmware to implement it. I think this is unrealistic for any but the most gifted and dedicated scientist, and one with a great deal of time and energy to devote to it.

If Garmin, or any other manufacturer was willing to modify their GPS to output this data, we would be very pleased to asses their device for approval.

It may well be that some people will find this all a bit too hard, and we are genuinely sorry if that occurs. It would be great in the ideal world to be able to include everyone with virtually no effort or expense required at all, but again, sadly, I guess the world is just not like that.

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Carindale said..
I also wanted to say that the people raising the concerns obviously really enjoy GPSTC and want to help improve it, so more people are involved and the process is easy to upload. Otherwise people wont bother posting their times (which is happening) and not make a contribution to GPSTC. Is that what we want?

Really, how many sailors don't bother posting?

Around 1300+ sailors posted to either GPSTC or GP-SSS this year. The large majority use the GW60.

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John340 said..

Carindale said..
I also wanted to say that the people raising the concerns obviously really enjoy GPSTC and want to help improve it, so more people are involved and the process is easy to upload. Otherwise people wont bother posting their times (which is happening) and not make a contribution to GPSTC. Is that what we want?

Really, how many sailors don't bother posting?

Around 1300+ sailors posted to either GPSTC or GP-SSS this year. The large majority use the GW60.

Hi John,

I personally know of two sailors that I could only describe as 'top class' sailors who don't bother posting due to gps requirements. I can only judge from my local area so I cannot comment on how many across Australia.

My point is that the data logged on GPSTC for the day was incomplete as I know a guy who didn't post was faster than anyone else that sailed and posted that particular day.

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Carindale said..

sailquik said..

Really, I dont think that is going to happen.
In any case, the integrity, validity and fairness of the GPSTC rankings would not be impacted at all.

Of course..... its upto you.

A number of people who really enjoy GPSTC have provided you will some valid feedback despite the risk of criticism on a public forum. What you chose to do with the information is completely upto you to decide.

Thank you for your input.

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sailquik said..

vosadrian said..

So in my case, I have 3 choices:
1) Use my Geko as I always have even though it is inferior to the watch on my arm in every way and is a pain for battery life and uploading and provides worse data.... but it is accepted by GPSTC.
2) Use my watch and don't post to GPSTC as it is not allowed.
3) Purchase the new locosys watch which from my research reveals it is a purchase I would regret. I would only use it for sailing and nothing else... and I am not doing much sailing at the moment.

Clearly I am not intending to use option 3. So it will be 1 or 2 for me. If I could use me watch in place of my Geko, it would not change anything to anyone else as the watch is no worse in spec than the Geko which is permitted. The Geko has limitations on its use, and the watch could have the same limitations.

So... yes the GPSTC has rules and they need to be followed just like any sport. Clearly it is unlikely that anyone will make a new version of GPSTC that is accepting of other devices (but it would be nice if we could figure out way to use Strava to do it!!). I get the point that others have done work (that I appreciate)... and I am not offering my own time to do the work. But that does not change the current predicament which is that there is only one accepted device in production and available from shops and it appears to be crap. The rules could be very slightly modified to correct this predicament, and that is why people are posting here.

Well summed up Adrian.

I sympathise with your situation, and I understand your logic, but those are your choices. What you choose is up to you. It's obviously not ideal for you, but then, much of what happens in life is like that. You may take some solice in knowing that your situation is somewhat unique, and that the vast majority of GPS-TC users dont have that particular dilemma. (I don't think anyone else actually still uses the Legacy Devices).

And yes, I agree with you that the GW-60 is certainly not ideal for many people. But at the moment, that, and the superseded GT-31/GW52, are the only readily available options that we have.

I take exception the the comment that 'The rules could be very slightly modified to correct this predicament,'

They cannot!

For all the reasons outlined so many times before. But particularly because allowing new non-'SDOP' devices is NOT a small change. It is a fundemental change and totally against the principles we work to, to maintain the integrity, validity and fairness of the GPS-TC rankings.

A gps that does not include Doppler data and Doppler error is not going to be approved for GPS-TC. There is just no reliable way to assess it's accuracy as a whole, and particularly, the validity of any single result.

At the moment, SirF and ublox are the only chip manufacturers I know of who include this data in their normal output (Although for SirF - not in all firmware versions).

Of course there is a system for approval of a GPS for the GPS-TC. Any device that produces Doppler speeds and Doppler speed error data can be submitted for approval, even home made ones based on the Ublox chipset. All the approval process is designed to do, for known GPS chips (Sirf and ublox) is to check that the device is working as designed, the output is as expected, and that the results are consistent with other simillarly based approved devices. . (IE. No construction or design problems that degrade to performance and output of the GPS chip)

It may be possible, in theory, for someone to come up with a valid method to work out a way of producing Doppler speed error data from any GPS chipset. It surely would be a very time consuming and difficult task though involving a great deal of testing and data gathering and a very sound understanding of the GNSS priciples and Mathematics involved. And then they would need acces to the base code of the GPS and firmware to implement it. I think this is unrealistic for any but the most gifted and dedicated scientist, and one with a great deal of time and energy to devote to it.

If Garmin, or any other manufacturer was willing to modify their GPS to output this data, we would be very pleased to asses their device for approval.

It may well be that some people will find this all a bit too hard, and we are genuinely sorry if that occurs. It would be great in the ideal world to be able to include everyone with virtually no effort or expense required at all, but again, sadly, I guess the world is just not like that.

Anyone asked Garmin?

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vosadrian said..

sailquik said..

I take exception the the comment that 'The rules could be very slightly modified to correct this predicament,'

They cannot!

For all the reasons outlined so many times before. But particularly because allowing new non-'SDOP' devices is NOT a small change. It is a fundemental change and totally against the principles we work to, to maintain the integrity, validity and fairness of the GPS-TC rankings.

A gps that does not include Doppler data and Doppler error is not going to be approved for GPS-TC. There is just no reliable way to assess it's accuracy as a whole, and particularly, the validity of any single result.

Yet the simple fact is that I can sail today with my Geko and post data without Doppler data. I understand I am a unique case and your sympathetic tone is appreciated.

I am no gun sailor. I suspect many GPSTC users are also not gun sailors. If you are a gun sailor and at the top of your game, then like many sports, the level is very similar, and the measurement equipment needs to be accurate to separate close results. I get what you are trying to do with data integrity as I do get frustrated when people use poor quality GPS data on Strava to take my KOMs... but I have a way to deal with that on Strava.

There are two points we disagree upon:
* I don't believe the accuracy data is the ultimate in determining when bad GPS data has given an inaccurate result. Anybody who has seen a lot of GPS tracks could look at a position and speed plot and see if data was bad. I do this all the time on Strava. We all know that a fast run on a sailboard will not have large accelerations or decelerations and will also be fairly straight in position. It is obvious when the data goes bad.
* I think there is a way for people to choose to use a device that does not have required accuracy data and post with this being clear (you can already select trackpoint/doppler) and then limit the ability to take records etc. similar to what my Geko does now.

I just looked at the GPSTC Philosophy statement:

"The philosophy of the Challenge:Inclusiveness: That everyone in the windsurfing community be included from fun and social sailors, to the serious including Pro's. Participation: That it is important to participate, to be involved, to develop skills and improve Personal Best Times. Be involved all season, not just summer. Fun: That most importantly we have fun, and however you get it, from stacking it on a 15 knot run, to doing 40+ knots, or just having a beer/bourbon/wine with your friends after a session. Building relationships: That we connect people with the same passion, meet new people, create connections intra, inter-state, international and generally just build relationships and grow our community.More generally, Windsurfing at speed is also about getting fit, developing skills and technique, we can all learn how to windsurf better, and some elements of GPS mean you want to sail more in order to give yourself a better chance of performing better, so more time on water has multiple benefits."

I am not convinced the current rules are in accordance with this philosophy. It is impossible for anyone to estimate how the requirement to use the Locosys watch has effected any sailors considering joining and also sailors needing a new device after their Locosys fails.... but I am certain that it is not zero effect.

You have some interesting points and I you are correct that we disagree on these:

1. The accuracy data is the most valuable and obvious factor that quickly idenitfies a suspect or erroneous result. There are some other useful indicators as well, but none are realiable 100% of the time on their own, and can't be automated very reliably. It is not true that legitimate tracks cant have 'high' acceleration or decelleration numbers. We found endless problems with this before we had the SDOP data and filters, and it is even more problematic with the higher Hz, unfiltered GPS's. It is certainly not always obvious when there is inaccurate data when there is no 'SDOP' numbers to confirm it. Over the years I have seen many, many cases where this was the case. The inclusion of Doppler error data was a godsend in solving these difficult cases.

2. The data base and ranking is always affected adversely by inaccurate data whether it is at the top or near the bottm of the ranking. It is always going to be unfair to some extent to someone or some team. The GPS-TC does not have 'Records', only Rankings, and often the team rankings for a month can turn on a very small difference, even if the speeds are quite modest. So no, there is no situation where we want to deliberatly compromise the rankings anymore than may already already forced on us.

3. I am quite comfortable that the current rules are completely compatible with the philosophy of inclusiveness in the GPS-TC.
There is no requirement to officially post your numbers in the rankings. As said, it is more than acceptable to post your numbers in the comments for all to see, and to share in the fun. You may be correct that a very few sailors my find even the simplest GPS and computer technology daunting, but I know there are lots of teeam members who are quite happy to help out with analysis and posting in those situations, which creates yet another oppurtunity for fellowship.

Thanks for your considered feedback.

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sailquik said..

vosadrian said..

sailquik said..

I take exception the the comment that 'The rules could be very slightly modified to correct this predicament,'

They cannot!

For all the reasons outlined so many times before. But particularly because allowing new non-'SDOP' devices is NOT a small change. It is a fundemental change and totally against the principles we work to, to maintain the integrity, validity and fairness of the GPS-TC rankings.

A gps that does not include Doppler data and Doppler error is not going to be approved for GPS-TC. There is just no reliable way to assess it's accuracy as a whole, and particularly, the validity of any single result.

Yet the simple fact is that I can sail today with my Geko and post data without Doppler data. I understand I am a unique case and your sympathetic tone is appreciated.

I am no gun sailor. I suspect many GPSTC users are also not gun sailors. If you are a gun sailor and at the top of your game, then like many sports, the level is very similar, and the measurement equipment needs to be accurate to separate close results. I get what you are trying to do with data integrity as I do get frustrated when people use poor quality GPS data on Strava to take my KOMs... but I have a way to deal with that on Strava.

There are two points we disagree upon:
* I don't believe the accuracy data is the ultimate in determining when bad GPS data has given an inaccurate result. Anybody who has seen a lot of GPS tracks could look at a position and speed plot and see if data was bad. I do this all the time on Strava. We all know that a fast run on a sailboard will not have large accelerations or decelerations and will also be fairly straight in position. It is obvious when the data goes bad.
* I think there is a way for people to choose to use a device that does not have required accuracy data and post with this being clear (you can already select trackpoint/doppler) and then limit the ability to take records etc. similar to what my Geko does now.

I just looked at the GPSTC Philosophy statement:

"The philosophy of the Challenge:Inclusiveness: That everyone in the windsurfing community be included from fun and social sailors, to the serious including Pro's. Participation: That it is important to participate, to be involved, to develop skills and improve Personal Best Times. Be involved all season, not just summer. Fun: That most importantly we have fun, and however you get it, from stacking it on a 15 knot run, to doing 40+ knots, or just having a beer/bourbon/wine with your friends after a session. Building relationships: That we connect people with the same passion, meet new people, create connections intra, inter-state, international and generally just build relationships and grow our community.More generally, Windsurfing at speed is also about getting fit, developing skills and technique, we can all learn how to windsurf better, and some elements of GPS mean you want to sail more in order to give yourself a better chance of performing better, so more time on water has multiple benefits."

I am not convinced the current rules are in accordance with this philosophy. It is impossible for anyone to estimate how the requirement to use the Locosys watch has effected any sailors considering joining and also sailors needing a new device after their Locosys fails.... but I am certain that it is not zero effect.

You have some interesting points and I you are correct that we disagree on these:

1. The accuracy data is the most valuable and obvious factor that quickly idenitfies a suspect or erroneous result. There are some other useful indicators as well, but none are realiable 100% of the time on their own, and can't be automated very reliably. It is not true that legitimate tracks cant have 'high' acceleration or decelleration numbers. We found endless problems with this before we had the SDOP data and filters, and it is even more problematic with the higher Hz, unfiltered GPS's. It is certainly not always obvious when there is inaccurate data when there is no 'SDOP' numbers to confirm it. Over the years I have seen many, many cases where this was the case. The inclusion of Doppler error data was a godsend in solving these difficult cases.

2. The data base and ranking is always affected adversely by inaccurate data whether it is at the top or near the bottm of the ranking. It is always going to be unfair to some extent to someone or some team. The GPS-TC does not have 'Records', only Rankings, and often the team rankings for a month can turn on a very small difference, even if the speeds are quite modest. So no, there is no situation where we want to deliberatly compromise the rankings anymore than may already already forced on us.

3. I am quite comfortable that the current rules are completely compatible with the philosophy of inclusiveness in the GPS-TC.
There is no requirement to officially post your numbers in the rankings. As said, it is more than acceptable to post your numbers in the comments for all to see, and to share in the fun. You may be correct that a very few sailors my find even the simplest GPS and computer technology daunting, but I know there are lots of teeam members who are quite happy to help out with analysis and posting in those situations, which creates yet another oppurtunity for fellowship.

Thanks for your considered feedback.

Would it be technically possible for people to upload data from Garmin devices, but if the Doppler/Trackpoint/Unknown checkbox is not selected to Doppler, the data is disqualified from contributing to team/individual rankings?

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sailquik said..

choco said..
Anyone asked Garmin?

Not recently that I know of. But many times in the past.

Andrew you know I did on Friday as per previous page 2.

They have replied only this evening and given me another contact section to make a request. I'll look into that when time permits. I'm concerned the next step is to a global request evaluation department and may not go any further.

Does anyone have an actual contact person at Garmin that we can find a foot in the door somehow? I imagine the evaluation center is flooded with requests so need an actual contact that might listen.

Cheers
Marty

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kato said..
Last post!!!! I GIVE UP.

It's useless to discuss the reasons with this lot as to why the "Garmin" style devices that don't have an error file aren't accepted. Want a new device accepted....DO THE WORK and prove that it meets the requirements of the rules.
I also refuse to let a few idiots destroy the integrity and trust in the data that we use. It's the same names that appear to come up in the suspect data and then claim " opps" my mistake.

Make your own comp , use whatever devices, even use Strava as your platform. But DO THE WORK!!!!!

I have watched this sport go from hand timed, videos , Garmin watches and now very accurate GPS's . Let's remember that many people have done some great work in getting us to this point in our sport.

Last point.
Want change.....DO THE WORK

Why is much of the data from 2007 and 2008 allowed to be in the data base for GPSTC.
Data that does not contain SDOP and accuracy data you have stated can not be counted as you not can prove it is correct.
Based on all the rules all data in GPSTC without SDOP and accuracy should be removed.

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Cocky2 said..
Why is much of the data from 2007 and 2008 allowed to be in the data base for GPSTC.
Data that does not contain SDOP and accuracy data you have stated can not be counted as you not can prove it is correct.
Based on all the rules all data in GPSTC without SDOP and accuracy should be removed.

You are kidding, right?

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sailquik said..

vosadrian said..

I think there is a big difference.

For a start, it would show up in my personal history. I could then check my total kms sailed and have it accurate. I could check my personal records page and it would be there. I could look up my sessions later and see it in a session history. If I want to look up the sessions to see what the best results I have had at a particular location, I can find it relatively easily instead of trying to trawl through comments. I can compare my results more easily to others on my team.

Then there is the fact that in my case, I could not be bothered to post data in the comments. I just won't bother. I am not sure if others feel the same way. To me it would feel like a waste of time and not worth the trouble if it s not recorded properly. I would just use Strava for my data where I can search and find it easily.

Surely this is a compromise solution that alleviates the concerns of the people who are worried about data quality, and allows those who are sailing socially and not worried about results to have more options on device selection?

Of course as a software/hardware engineer, it seems like a fairly easy to implement change, but I am not the person giving up their time to do these changes so I cannot comment on that.

Well, if you cant be bothered...........

And you cant be bothered posting in comments............

And you can't be bothered making the effort to post from an approved device...........

Because you are only doing it for the camradarie and 'fun' anyhow and you are not interested in your results.........

Sorry. I guess we will have to do it all for you.

I wish I had your insight into how everyone should think. I doubt my opinions and attitude are unique. If the green thumbs in this thread are anything to go by it seems I am not the only one.

What I see here is that you really don't want to please everyone... just those who agree with you. Even though you could please the others with little effort and no impact on others. And when someone makes a valid point you divert the point by having a go at them rather than answering the query since that is easier when you have no answer. Nice!!

I hope you keep your little sandbox all neat and ordered.......